I've heard that Mormons deny evolution and believe the earth is only 6000-10000 years old. Is this for real?
I know this is what Muslims believe, but Mormons have the benefit of living in an educated country.

Educated country, you say? Four in ten Americans believe the earth is 10,000 years old or younger. Yes, Mormon doctrine requires a literal interpretation of Genesis, but many, like me while I was yet TBM, just didn't buy it. I received both my BS and MS degrees at YBU, and in all my geology classes never learned anything but old earth geology and evolution. In my paleo class, we even had a whole day's discussion on how creationism was wrong.

"I received both my BS and MS degrees at YBU, and in all my geology classes never learned anything but old earth geology and evolution. In my paleo class, we even had a whole day's discussion on how creationism was wrong."

Cognitive dissonance on parade: If you try to teach old-earth geology and evolution in an LDS church class, you'll be told that you're contradicting church doctrine and the teachings of the prophets. But if you advocate young-earth creationism in a BYU science class, you'll be laughed out of the place.

One of the sacred doctrines and covenants of the LDS church are that we are to understand by what book John saw in the book of Revelation which was sealed on the back with seven seals that they contain the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence. If the earth was intended to be older then there would have been a lot more seals on that book John saw than just seven. You can read about this sacred doctrine and covenant at https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/77.6?lang=eng.

Thomas S. Monson (a man who is highly revered by the faithful for his prophecies, revelations, and seer work) once said: “I propose to stay with my faith, with the faith of my people. I know that happiness and contentment are there, and I forbid you, agnostic, doubting thoughts, to destroy the house of my faith. I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and I do not attempt to do so, but I accept God’s word. I wasn’t with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it.” ( https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/02/the-lighthouse-of-the-lord-a-message-to-the-youth-of-the-church?lang=eng )

Obviously anyone who disagrees with the above, such as supposing the earth's temporal existence will be about 8 thousand years, is an Anti-Mormon. No matter how hard anyone will try to change this doctrine it is what it is.

"Obviously anyone who disagrees with the above, such as supposing the earth's temporal existence will be about 8 thousand years, is an Anti-Mormon."

Including Blake Ostler, and every single apologist over at FairMormon. ROTFL.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1844928

There have been many LDS leaders who have openly spouted young earth creationist, and anti-evolution nonsense. The most prolific have been Joseph Fielding Smith, and Bruce McConkie. More recently we have had statements that are more like lighter jabs against science compared the full frontal assault of Smith and McConkie.

The Thomas Monson one above is a good example. Russell M. Nelson opined that evolution by natural selection producing what is currently on earth was about as likely as an explosion at a print shop producing a dictionary. LDS President Ezra Taft Benson said that the Book of Mormon dispels the falsehoods of organic evolution (I'm still not sure how).

Some former Mormon leaders were privately more accepting of evolution and old earth geology--but they generally tended to be silent about the subject in public. So we're left with a few fragmentary offhand statement--usually uttered in private conversations. For a time, I was really interested in this subject, and never came across a public testimony or book entry from a modern LDS leader in favor of old earth geology and/or organic (especially human) evolution.

Better educated Mormons would tell you that the LDS Church has no stance on these issues--just as we saw on the flood thread on this board recently. The LDS Institute (allegedly a college level religion course) manual on the Old Testament puts forward a variety of positions. But at least while I was a member, a young earth position was exclusively put forward in the Old Testament Sunday School manual.

However, when we consider the very strong anti-evolution and pro-young earth statements of some top-level LDS leaders, and the public silence on others on the topic, it becomes clear to the members where the LDS Church would prefer that you stand. Hint it's not with Charles Darwin.

It's fairly easy to wiggle out of when you believe the earth is made from old planet leftovers and the time before the fall could have been any determination of time that fits your preconceived notions.

Mormons are really only held to believing it's been roughly 6,000 years since the fall, not 6,000 years since the creation.

Evangelical christians, however, don't have the same luxury...

"Mormons are really only held to believing it's been roughly 6,000 years since the fall, not 6,000 years since the creation."

But Mormonism also clearly teaches that there was no death of any kind before the fall, so any Mormons who believe that humans lived on earth before the fall 6,000 years ago are unwittingly admitting that that doctrine is bogus.

Have you read this thread?

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1841923,1843899#msg-1843899

Not if they believe, as I stated, that the earth was created from leftover parts of dead planets, which gives them wiggle room to believe that any evidence of death prior to the fall occurred elsewhere in the cosmos.

It's harder to pin them down on this than you might think.

It's turtles all the way down to outer darkness!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2016 12:11PM by kolobian.

"Not if they believe, as I stated, that the earth was created from leftover parts of dead planets, which gives them wiggle room to believe that any evidence of death prior to the fall occurred elsewhere in the cosmos."

But that silly theory doesn't explain why there are lots of species living today that have been around for millions of years:

http://themysteriousworld.com/top-10-oldest-animal-species-on-earth/

If Mormons deny that, they are denying the fossil record and scientific dating methods which have been proved reliable for decades now.

As I've noted in other recent threads, even some FAIRMormon apologists now accept that humans have inhabited the Americas for at least 15,000 years, as archaelogical and DNA research indicates. That concession alone nullifies the Adam and Eve story as well as young-earth creationism overall.

Because god.

Or, because satan.

That's why :)

Of course their position is untenable. But anyone who's ever been to the temple knows very well that mormons don't care about looking stupid...

My LDS-published Bible, 1979 edition, carried this material in its Bible Dictionary section, under "Chronological Tables":

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE DAYS OF THE EARLY PATRIARCHS

B.C. 4000 Fall of Adam.
3000 Ministry of Enoch.
2400 Ministry of Noah; the Flood.
2200 Tower of Babel.

What's this "educated country" of which you speak? There are several educated countries, but the U.S. is hardly one of them.

Myron Donnerbalken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's this "educated country" of which you speak?
> There are several educated countries, but the U.S.
> is hardly one of them.

Perhaps 'educated' was too strong of a word :)

But there's certainly the freedom and ability to be educated in the US, unlike in Muslim countries.

The trouble that religious people see is that so called scientists, which are actually "bureaucratic paid academicians" not scientists, use very unreliable instruments to make profound judgments on how the earth was made, it's age, all the mysteries of the universe, etc. Take for instance Carbon Data, it's accurate for about 400 years, yet this propaganda machine claims knowledge of millions of years? I could go on and on but to me it's ridiculous that 6/10 Americans (as fossilman reported) actually believe what is taught in Science class...

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take for
> instance Carbon Data, it's accurate for about 400
> years, yet this propaganda machine claims
> knowledge of millions of years?

Actually, carbon 14 dating is useful to about 50,000 years ago. Only for things that were once alive. It's not used to date things in millions of years, it's not claimed to do so. There's no "propaganda," just your own ignorance of the subject.

Other dating methods using known, well-tested values for radioactive decay of elements are useful on longer timeframes, because of their longer half-lives. The methods are consistent and accurate. They're not "unreliable instruments." You appear to need a *great* deal of education on the subject.

> I could go on and
> on but to me it's ridiculous that 6/10 Americans
> (as fossilman reported) actually believe what is
> taught in Science class...

Science doesn't operate on "belief." It operates on facts and evidence. If you "believe" things in science, or think "belief" is involved or required, you've missed the point entirely.

"Science doesn't operate on "belief." It operates on facts and evidence. If you "believe" things in science, or think "belief" is involved or required, you've missed the point entirely."

That is why science is superior to religion. Science is always looking for a better explanation of the natural world. Religion thinks it already has the answers, and refuses to budge--even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The trouble that religious people see is that so
> called scientists, which are actually
> "bureaucratic paid academicians" not scientists,
> use very unreliable instruments to make profound
> judgments on how the earth was made, it's age, all
> the mysteries of the universe, etc. Take for
> instance Carbon Data, it's accurate for about 400
> years, yet this propaganda machine claims
> knowledge of millions of years? I could go on and
> on but to me it's ridiculous that 6/10 Americans
> (as fossilman reported) actually believe what is
> taught in Science class...

OK, I see that you are part of the problem.

"Take for instance Carbon Data, it's accurate for about 400 years, yet this propaganda machine claims knowledge of millions of years?"

Poopstone, you are repeating the same nonsense I used to tell investigators 40 years ago when I was a naive, uneducated missionary. The fact is, there are numerous scientific dating methods that are very accurate. You embarrass yourself when you keep repeating this ignorant creationist babble.

poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The trouble that religious people see is that so
> called scientists, which are actually
> "bureaucratic paid academicians" not scientists,
> use very unreliable instruments to make profound
> judgments on how the earth was made, it's age, all
> the mysteries of the universe, etc. Take for
> instance Carbon Data, it's accurate for about 400
> years, yet this propaganda machine claims
> knowledge of millions of years? I could go on and
> on but to me it's ridiculous that 6/10 Americans
> (as fossilman reported) actually believe what is
> taught in Science class...

There are many solid resources online explaining radiometric dating of which carbon dating is only one of many. There are numerous methods. A good starting point, if you are interested, is the following article.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/radiometric_dating.html

This table is a nice summary but I fear it will not format well when I hit "Post message". It is also available at the link above.

Table 1: Principal Parent and Daughter Isotopes Used In Radiometric Dating

Parent isotope Daughter isotope Half-life (years)

potassium-40 (40K) argon-40 (40Ar) 1.25 × 109
rubidium-87 (87Rb) strontium-87 (87Sr) 4.88 × 1010
carbon-14 (14C) nitrogen-14 (14N) 5.73 × 103
uranium-235 (235O) lead-207 (207Pb) 7.04 × 108
uranium-238 (238O) lead-206 (206Pb) 4.47 × 109
thorium-232 (232Th) lead-208 (208Pb) 1.40 × 1010
lutetium-176 (176Lu) hafnium-176 (176Hf) 3.5 × 1010
rhenium-187 (187Re) osmium-187 (187Os) 4.3 × 1010
samarium-147 (147Sm) neodymium-143 (143Nd) 1.06 × 1011

When evaluating the geological evidence, all methods point to a roughly 4.5 billion year old earth with a very little variability.

Uranium lead dating is good to a few percent at several billion years. Today's mass spec equipment is pretty darn good.

Yes, they are young earth creationists... At least that's what I was taught as a kid in priesthood lessons and from my Father (granted my family was living in the south at the time, so that might be a factor).

I distinctly remember my Father teaching me that a "day" to God was roughly 1,000 years. So, that means it took 6,000 years to create the earth, he rested for 1,000 years and he's waiting for another "week" or so to tear it all down in an apocalypse. So, from God's perspective, according to my father, the Earth get's 2 weeks of existence start to finish.

ETA: Keep in mind that they pretty much have to be. Noah and the Ark, the tower of Babel, and all that came before it is cannon, it actually happened and not an allegory, thanks to the Brother of Jared story. Mormon's believe that the BOM is a literal history, therefore, Genesis is as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2016 12:13PM by Finally Free!.

"Yes, they are young earth creationists... At least that's what I was taught as a kid in priesthood lessons and from my Father (granted my family was living in the south at the time, so that might be a factor)."

What does "living in the south" have to do with anything? There are Mormons and Evangelical Christians who believe in young-earth creationism who live in every state in the USA and every western nation on earth.

I asked my last bishop about dinosaurs and he said that dinosaur fossils were put here by asteroids to test our faith. It took all of my energy to not laugh out loud.

And he was a respected surgeon in the area. Just goes to show you don't have to have common sense to be a doctor.

So yes, many Mormons believe the earth is 7000 years old. Religion makes people so fucking stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2016 09:36PM by Atari.

Or else it gives people who are amazingly stupid the self assurance to try to tell the rest of us how things are or ought to be....

"I asked my last bishop about dinosaurs and he said that dinosaur fossils were put here by asteroids to test our faith."

That must have been one helluva asteroid storm, seeing as how dinosaur fossils are found all over the globe, and in various strata.

One of the world's most noted paleontologists was "Dinosaur Jim" Jensen of BYU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Jensen

Jensen collected so many fossils that for years, some of the were stored underneath the BYU football stadium seats.