TSCC is vulnerable to lawsuits by allowing unqualified "clergy" providing counseling services. My first exposure to the misguided direction was when a bishop stated on several occasions that mental illness was caused by evil spirits. He asked a depressed young man if he "had ever done anything stupid like becoming drunk allowing evil spirits to possess him." The leadership in that stake was also fond of the "despair cometh because of iniquity" quote when dealing with those who were depressed.

Then there is the case of the local leadership where I currently live working with an apostate's managers trying to get her fired. I have watched them trying to paint this person as being mental ill. Numerous federal problems with this picture but the TSCC leaders do not give two $#i!#. The god complexes of bishopric members and stake leadership.

If the Q15 want to cease being perceived as misguided leaders of an organized crime syndicate, then it would be a good idea if that stop with their current method of selecting leaders and dealing with "apostates."

Bishops are only qualified to be what they are...doctor, dentist, plumber...oh wait, they'd never call a plumber to be a bishop would they? (and I respect more plumbers than I do docs and tooth fairies BTW).

RB

We don't have any doctors, dentists, etc., in this ward. We're too lower middle class.

The upside of that is having a bishop that actually knows how a dollar is earned through manual labor.

RB

I don't know about that...Horny Joe was a plumber. He screwed around quite a bit.

Hey not all bishops are professionals. When I was in Hawaii in the Navy our bishop was a Chief Petty Officer which meant he probably had a high school diploma.

As usual, the Q15 will wake up when it's too late. Psychological quackery will sink TSCC when the hounds of hell come howling. The potential for wrongful death lawsuits alone is staggering.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As usual, the Q15 will wake up when it's too late.
> Psychological quackery will sink TSCC when the
> hounds of hell come howling. The potential for
> wrongful death lawsuits alone is staggering.

I would imagine there have been many such cases. I personally know of one wrongful death that occurred under an unqualified bishop attempting to play counselor. The family was/is very TBM so they never did a thing other than continue to attend and pay 10% of their gross for crappy advice.

Making comparisons seems to help clue some TBMs in to the problem. Calling accountants, dentists, engineers, used car salesmen, real estate investors, etc to be counselors/clergy just because they have some understanding of a s#!tty 19th century religious novel is the equivalent of:

1. Letting your local handyman be your dentist because he has a pair of vice grips and a ball-peen hammer in his garage

2. Hiring your accountant to perform a C-section because she watched a PBS special on child delivery.

As much as TBMs disparage a paid ministry, there is something to be said for a church minister who has had training in pastoral counseling. Plus, it frees members of the church community from having to have two jobs -- their regular job plus a church job that could run a few hours or, in the case of a bishop, as much as 20+ hours a week.

Non-Mormon Christians donate on average only 2.6% of their incomes, but they get a lot more back for their money than Mormons do. Mormons donate 10%, but have to deal with an untrained clergy and inadequate budgets for materials, supplies, and events. All of their money gets sucked into the vacuum that is Church headquarters in Salt Lake City.

My biggest cog dis last time I was on Temple Square was seeing white men behind leaf blowers. I wondered how many of them have engineering or business degrees.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> My biggest cog dis last time I was on Temple
> Square was seeing white men behind leaf blowers. I
> wondered how many of them have engineering or
> business degrees.
===========================================
White people don't take care of their lawns in SLC?

Whenever I am offered counseling by a Bishop my questions are:
Do you have a degree in psychiatry?

Do you have degree in psychology?

Do you have a degree in counseling?

If the answer is not yes to at least one of these then my response is "How dare you attempt to proceed in a discipline in which you are not legally qualified.

For that matter, not even a degree in divinity or theology?

Dude's not even qualified in any way to give religious counsel - let alone family couseling, financial counseling, health advising or whatever else crops up.


desertman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whenever I am offered counseling by a Bishop my
> questions are:
> Do you have a degree in psychiatry?
>
> Do you have degree in psychology?
>
> Do you have a degree in counseling?
>
> If the answer is not yes to at least one of these
> then my response is "How dare you attempt to
> proceed in a discipline in which you are not
> legally qualified.

When interviewed to become a Bishop, the Stake President ask if I had a background psychology and family counseling. My undergraduate studies were philosophy with a law degree. My legal career was insurance. When he learned of my professional training, he assumed I would be just fine because I had least completed a class in psychology from Weber State before leaving on a mission (LOL). Nothing like having an attorney trying to repair marriages and fixing various problems. I was way out of my league.

LDS InC does not promote meetings with a Bishop as counseling other than religious counsel. They (Bishops/SP) do not give family council or professional counsel only religious counsel.

The mistake members make is 1. They assume the Bishop receives inspiration and 2. The bishop has some kind of knowledge or training in life and life's problems when they have NONE.

The worst mistake a person makes, is to assume a Bishop or Stake President is someone to talk with. Stupid is as Stupid does and Stupid is to talk with LDS Leaders.

Before you blame the members, what has the church done to debunked the myths? Has there be a General Conference talk about how bishops are untrained and uninspired, and members should not go to their bishops for counseling and advice?

The stupidity is to be a member of the LDS church, or any church for that matter.

You are SO wrong about this. In other churches, where there is a paid clergy, almost without exception that clergy spends considerable time studying counselling and psychology in school, before they are even ordained. They actually have training and background in the subject, unlike a bishop who may have taken a couple hours on a Saturday from a Stake President.

I'll admit that a licensed professional counselor is a better option than even a trained clergy but to compare what other churches offer to the complete void that is Mormonism just shows an ignorance of what it takes to actually be a trained pastor or priest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2016 07:40AM by CA girl.

I was surprised to see that there were not a lot of actual Bible courses in his distribution requirements. The explanation was that they expect him to be studying the Bible throughout his life.

The religious courses were mostly in theology (theirs, of course) and hermeneutics. After that, it was counseling, church administration, and surveys of other religious systems.

LDS has one strong point, in that their bishops are men who work in the real world. One of my complaints about lots of young Christian pastoral candidates is that they go from college to seminary to church employment and don't know the secular world first-hand. We had a couple of years of financial reverses, so my son took time off from college and worked regular jobs. Rough times, but he gained a lot of maturity and experience. (I call that "our years of harsh blessings.")

I think that Bishops are supposed to go to the church headquarters in Salt Lake occasionally for training of how to do their callings. But I highly suspect that the training they get there is about how to cover the church's ass, how to deal with legal issues, and how to increase tithing donations. I doubt they're actually taught how to council anyone on anything except things that directly benefit the church. Too many of them get everything wrong to have received any meaningful training. Once in a while it just so happens that the Bishop can offer more than crap, because some of them are nice people too. But that's not a qualification for the position.

What is disgusting and evil is the personna the church delivers that bishops are qualified to counsel by directly sending members to the bishops. the father of the ward, for problems. Using the father figure brings on images of someone who is wise, loving and full of caring advice. The members go because they have been told over and over this is where they, as good members, go for help. Trusting members naively still go to these people even IF they have been warned in a kind way that these church leaders are not trained professionally to be of qualified help.

I have a beautiful sweet friend who is very TBM. She has received harmful, dangerous advice from bishops. She is very trusting, a single working little educated Mom of 5 who, I think, no matter what happens, will always be in denial that a bishop is capable of giving wrong advice. In cases such as this, the church needs to be held accountable for the evil it does.

LDS Bishops are promoted as being SUPERIOR to other clergy, because they aren't PAID. It's like they're considered to be more pure because they do it voluntarily without being sullied by a greedy paycheck. The Bishop always sits front and center and high up so he can look down on the congregation at church meetings too.

So I don't know what it says in the manual, but ward members are definitely taught to see him as their spiritual leader and life counselor, and since your whole life is supposed to be spiritual day in and day out, I'm sure many members turn to them for all sorts of issues, such as marriage problems, drug problems etc. They believe that their Bishop has everything he needs because it comes from God, not a worthless ole' college degree.

It's sort of scary.

seekyr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LDS Bishops are promoted as being SUPERIOR to
> other clergy, because they aren't PAID. It's like
> they're considered to be more pure because they do
> it voluntarily without being sullied by a greedy
> paycheck.


By this logic, no one should be paid, and there shouldn't be malls and temples and business empires.

No, no. It seems to satisfy them to just be able to say that there is no paid clergy. They seem to feel no need to get carried away with the concept at the higher levels.

The biggest advantage of training is that a clergy person trained in counseling should have a better idea when a person has problems above the clergy member's pay grade, and can refer them to the appropriate mental health services.

In general, looking back on my experience during my mission as a branch president they don't really train you for anything. It wasn't just counseling. The LDS Church really didn't have a comprehensive training program for anything except their weirded out "doctrine" (tm). I really didn't understand the administrative procedures, and a million other things. They just give you a handbook, which is helpful if you have a well staffed ward and stake in Draper with a bunch of experienced people to help take care of things and provide some guidance. Of course, when you slip up they will make sure to make you feel guilty for not doing it right--they've got that down.

I had a bishop that was a drill sergeant for the guard here in Utah. Hands down best bishop ever, if that's possible. He actually ended up resigning after 6 months and shortly became inactive after. Made me wonder if the burden of carrying everyone was too much for him on top of his day job in the military.

On a side note, my mom was on the verge of divorce a couple years ago and she and her husband met with the bishop once or twice a week for about a month. Needless to say, they're still together. I know the bishop was counseling them. I was hoping they'd divorce after some of the things I know happened.

Mom was going to a professional in the meantime (unbeknownst to him, fit would have hit the shan) and I know the one with the PhD was saying get the eff out. Who did they end up listening to? The local company man. Makes me sick to watch my mom shrink her light for him. But, bishop knows best I suppose.

Sweaty, masturbation obsessed bishops are the worst. I had to talk to one in my early teens, and it was humiliating. The guy told me that scientists work for the devil. Did I pleasure myself, and if so, how often? he wanted to know. My heart sank and my face turned the color of a setting sun.

In June 2014 The LDS leadership said that both men and women could be chaplains outside the military. I found this out from a TBM friend after I began my Masters program in Divinity. Next year I will be taking all my counseling courses and internship. Then I find out quite a few women are going for their M.Div that are in the church. In about 2-4 years there will be an influx of highly educated women that will know far more than any sunday school teacher and any leader in this church unless they are professional counselors. Also I will be able to perform marriages. It would be interesting if a couple getting married outside the temple were to choose a woman in the ward instead of the Bishop to perform the marriage.
More than one Bishop could have ruined my life with their "counsel" I hope women and men get smarter and understand the guy they are talking to that professes inspiration is just a man trying to figure out what to say.

Only training bishoprics get is how to carry out church policy and, if they listen closely, when to call headquarters to keep the church out of legal problems. Hell, even CES directors are not expected to have any theological or philosophical training. They just get drilled on how to teach curriculum in a sincere way. Most people in such callings are 'winging it'.

The level headed bishops are the ones who know their limits and act accordingly.

I have a sister that spent years in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship.

She and her dickhead husband were married in a civil ceremony. One year later, dickhead was all gung ho on getting to the temple. After all, looking the part was very important. But, my sister resisted.

The bishop's counsel was as predictable as it was stupid. She got the whole "that's just Satan talking to you" shpeel. "Satan's main objective is to keep families from becoming eternal" and of course the guilt laden "don't you want to be with your baby in the next life?"

Fucking slimeball piece of shit.

Anybody with even an ounce of experience in counseling should have noticed several big red flags there. It shouldn't have been too difficult to see that there were major problems in the relationship that weren't going to be solved by going to the temple.

The church is the prime reason why my sister stuck with that mother fucker for 13 or 14 years when she probably would have dumped his worthless ass at about year 2 or 3 otherwise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2016 12:51PM by Strength in the Loins.

One of my bigger regrets is allowing my children to be interviewed by these men. Men with no training, arrogant bastards laying on the guilt and shame. Looking back always gives me a knot in my stomach. Reading this thread made me review the qualifications of each of my previous bishops. The one that did the most damage--made gumball machines for a living. Egads, what was I thinking--oh, I guess I wasn't. Fortunately, my husband was wise enough to tell our children if they shared it with him, it was confessed and never to be thought of again so they didn't ever humiliate themselves with the neighborhood- bishoprick!

Oft-repeated theme here, and I'll repeat it:

The only thing the Q care about is cash.

As long as the benefits outweigh the risks, there is no problem, the ROI is working.

They don't care if there's a dead body or two; devestated lives mean even less. A few lawsuits or payoff jobs...? All's well in Morg.

They fly their morpirate flag under the guise of religious freedom. It is against their interests to have educated, trained clergy.

What would a trained counselor tell an abused wife? "Leave him, we'll excommunicate him and his tithe, and support you and your four kids until no longer needed."

Same goes for depression.

"Look, Bob. It's working 50-60 hours at your paying jobs, the 15-20 hours you devote to church, doling out 10% so you can never take a vacation, and the little time you have with the family, you need to mow the lawn, unplug the drain, spend real time with your wife, and all the kids want to play ball or need help with math. You need to buy condoms, cut back on church duties and go on a vacation. Whack off in the shower if you don't have time with the wife. Stop tithing."

Nope.

The "REAL PROBLEM" with members are "impure thoughts" and "evil spirits." The majority of them will pay 10% to keep believing it.


____________


O/T -That paragraph about dad makes me wonder if the hellish mission rules are designed as prep for the hell of mormon married life (both sexes). Unrelenting schedules, stuffing personal needs, hunger, sacrifice, no alone time, etc.

Fully agree w/ the premise of this post. I have seen horrific accounts in my years as a TBM, where unqualified Bishops give contraindicated advice, which has been harmful. For example(s):

-Advising a mother of two teens that she needed to quit her well paying job (no child support mind you) to better look after a wayward teen daughter.

-Providing marriage counseling to a couple where the husband was unfaithful, and blaming the wife for his deeds. "you need to pay more attention to him in every way."

-One bishop (in the construction industry) would actual diagnose people in his ward w/ various mental illness, e.g. one guy he diagnosed with ADHD, and acted as if it were a fact when talking to the man's wife. "You husband ahs ADHD..he need to be put on Ritalin." So laughable.

To many examples to mention.