I live in the UK and am planning on suing TSCC for my tithing back. The basis of my claim is very simple - i paid under duress.

The church has in its teachings has made it extremely clear that my life depends on me paying my tithing. That if i failed to give them 10% of my gross income, month on month, i would be at risk of being denied exaltation and thereby losing out on the only reason i came to this earth.

Further, if i did not give them 10% of my gross income per month, i would not be allowed to go to the temple, where i would be show the necessary secret signs and passwords required to get me into heaven.

Therefore, since at the time i trusted they were telling me the truth, i handed them the money.

They may refer to the money as donations, but their literature over decades shows i have no choice in this matter if i wanted to survive.

My solicitor is drafting the letter for me, so i expect they'll have around 3 or so months to respond. If they wish to go to court over the matter i believe i have sufficient written evidence in church published manuals and in televised church talks, to make it clear that the only reason i gave this organisation the money was because i genuinely feared destruction if i did not hand it over to them. That they persuaded me my life or salvation depended on it.

As such i maintain that they obtained money from me under the duress of a threat to my life and a fear for my future well being. They were not voluntary donation but coerced payments.

Thoughts?

(and i'll keep you updated once i hear back from them).

You are my hero.

Are you aware of Tom Phillips' suit against the church in the UK? You should try to contact him. He sued for fraud and lost, but much was learned.

Yes, very aware.

Slight difference though, Tom brought a criminal case for fraud against TSCC, i'm suing them in a civil court for the return of funds obtained as a result of coercion.

I'm not trying to prove the whole church is a fraud, only that they pressured me into making payments i otherwise would not have made, and the pressure applied was the constant reminder that i would never make it to heaven if i didn't give them the specific amount of 10% Gross on a monthly basis.

By contrast, Tom's case would have seen the church found guilty of Fraud in a criminal court.

In a civil court, whilst i will have to prove i was coerced - which i was and can produce extensive documentation to support that claim, the church would have to prove it truly has the power to grant me salvation and that it's claim to being the only true collector of Tithes acting on behalf is God is correct in order to resist my claim.

Good luck and I DO HOPE you win!

Easiest counter argument, you DESIRED the blessings, so it wasn't coerced.

Their lawyers will duel with your lawyer, and, my guess, the winning argument will be that "buyer's remorse" cannot be allowed to upset the reliance the recipients have on the money.

I hope I'm wrong.

From what i understand, the onus is on the church in a civil case as the proof threshold is much lower.

I can evidence my side of the claim that the pressure is real. I can evidence that you cannot be 'saved' without going through the temple, but you cannot go through the temple without paying 10% Gross. Therefore the church has made it clear that at a future point, my failure to pay them 10% will result in clear suffering on my part - eternal suffering.

I don't think there is a much clearer example of no violent coercion.

TSCC Lawyers may try to resist this, but they are likely to be required to prove their claim is legitimate. Unlike in Tom's case it isn't enough to simply say 'we believe' we're collecting the money for God, as the Church owns businesses and pays its leaders vast sums. The court is likely to want to see that it can keep up its end of the bargain and guarantee me salvation - a burned the TSCC will never be able to reach.

Further, i will be able to discuss the Temple in the court room and discuss whether the handshakes and signs really are required to save me - this will likely require showing videos or demonstrations in which the church will be required to defend their claim.

The bottom line here is very simple. Nobody really pays tithing of 10% gross every month because they like the church, they pay it because they must. Even the church leaders used to call it fire insurance.

Oh, yeah! Don't forget to raise the issue that the GAs excused themselves from paying tithing.

Digging up and putting on the record all the crap will be fun!

What are you going to do if they offer to settle?

Anon-4Now Wrote:
>
> The bottom line here is very simple. Nobody really
> pays tithing of 10% gross every month because they
> like the church, they pay it because they must.
> Even the church leaders used to call it fire
> insurance.

It's like a mobster saying: "Nice soul you got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it. For the low-low price of 10% of everything you make I might be able to help you with that."

Did you receive your endowments when they still used the blood oaths of slashing your throat and bowels? I think that would be an even stronger image to show how threatening the church is with regard to doing as they say or suffering grave injury. I received my endowments with the blood oaths and I'd sure testify in court that it's pretty coercive stuff.

Good luck with this.

Wishing you success!

Can you PROVE to the satisfaction of the court that the claims were false or that the "blessings" were not received? Since most of the claims regard things you will have in the afterlife, I doubt such proof would be accepted.

From what i understand, i do not need to prove anything with regard to whether their claims have merit. I only have to prove i was coerced. That is the burden for me.

To resist the claim the TSCC must prove either that it did not coerce me or imply threats of harm or loss if i did not pay. Or it must prove i've received 'blessings' or they can guarantee me salvation. I doubt they can do either of these things.

The bottom line remains that no sensible person hands the TSCC that kind of money unless they genuinely believe the claims at the time and that they will be harmed if they don't cough up the cash on each occasion.

Does anybody seriously doubt what takes place is coercion when you are told you can't live with your kids again if you don't make it and to make it you must pay them?

I think the idea is to prove emotional blackmail. TSCC could have said the ghost of Jack the Ripper might kill you in your sleep if you don't pay up. The effect is the same and the existence of the ghost of Jack the Ripper is outside the scope of the trial.

The UK has historically been on the cutting edge of improvements in jurisprudence. It's a tricky thing to work out kinks in the law that evil hides behind. Good luck to you.

One person's tithing is just a rounding error in the church's books. What they fear more is the spread of the idea that recovering tithing, anywhere, is possible.

What would you do if church lawyers offered you a settlement? Say, you'd get every farthing back, but in return you'd be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement, prohibiting you from ever telling anyone of your success. You couldn't return and report due to your permanent gag order.

I could actually imagine them doing that. In their minds, it would be losing a small battle in order to win a greater war.

Here's the deal, if they offer me a full settlement with a NDA, then that scuppers me progressing to court, as they've offered a full refund. So...

IF they insist i sign and NDA you won't hear me mention this again (i expect responses from their legal team in around 3 months) - but you'll know i won.

IF i lose i'll be on here and explain i lost and why.

IF i win in court, it will be in the papers and probably make it all the way to the UK national Papers and even the SL Trib.

The use of the word solicitor caused me to assume you do not live in the States. Tax laws and deductions are different but if you are in the States and do win, are you being advised that the IRS is going to look at the settlement either as income or require you to refile years of returns since you used tithing as a deduction?

Gatorman

His first sentence states that he lives in the UK.

Correct. Finally paid attention. Senior moment.

Gatorman

Was trying to make ventilator changes on two kids. Thanks for not making too much fun of me- the topic really caught my attention. Will save my thoughts for when it happens in this country. Maybe it already has...and church settled. We shall see....

Gatorman

LOL! I hope you don't spend too much on this. Bad enough you lost all that tithing money, but court fees too?

At the very least you will shine another light on the cockroaches down at the morg, and for that you are to be commended.

I suspect the morg will do everything in its power to not refund your tithing as it would set a very bad precedent. The floodgates of litigants would be open.

Their defense will be very simple. They will claim that you chose to believe, and that you voluntarily paid tithing. No coercion was necessary.

I'm a convert, they presented a case to me. I asked questions, they lied about some of the answers. But bottom line is, once they persuaded me it was real, i was then persuaded that i would suffer damnation if i did not pay up.

The onus will be on them more than me, since they can't prove that i chose to believe, but i can prove in black and white print and in dozens of church talks in Conference what the LDS position on tithing is.

One case is hard fact, the other is conjecture.

Further, If i hold a gun to your head and tell you ill use it if you don't take your wallet out - are you choosing to take your wallet out? Does your choice in any way lessen the coercion?

Way to give the church some trouble in an area so very dear to their heart---money. Do keep updating as to the progress of things and Best of Luck!

You have probably already thought of this..remind the solictitor that you are "called in" for TITHING SETTLEMENT!

settlement? = obligation

yearly you are "audited" on your donation by the bishop.

Brother Anon... can you declare that you have paid a full tithing to the church ...uhh I mean the lord?

I'm sorry Brother Anon,,, you are denied a temple recommend and denied the blessing that are associated with it.

Mormon 8:32

show them this scripture from "our founders own hat"

THE BOOK OF MORMON
CHAPTER 8
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

You gave without any legal expectation of a return. You cannot prove that you were defrauded because they promised you nothing tangible. Social pressure is not duress.

You have no hope of winning this lawsuit, because it would destroy charitable giving. If it makes you feel better, go for it, but I give you a <1% chance of success.

Social Pressure isn't a corporation.

Social Pressure does not offer the inducement of Life After Death.

Social Pressure does not tell you YOU MUST have handshakes to get into heaven.

Social Pressure has no power to Damn you to Hell.

The fee is fixed at 10% Gross - this makes it a demand. It is very easy to link this to there own statements indicating what the outcome is if you don't pay up.

Charitable giving in almost every case has no coercion, it is about helping others. If i give to a cancer charity, there is no expectation i will get anything back, nor do they try to tell me i will die of cancer if i don't give to them. In mormonism, if you don't pay, you're cut off from God, from your family, you loose the ability to procreate, you become an eternal servant for someone else, and your freedom is therefore shot.

Anybody persuaded by any organisation to part with their cash for an invisible gain has a fraud claim, add in an inducement in the form of a threat and you have a coercion claim.

You may be right but if this gets any press at all it might be a small win anyway. LDS, Inc. hates bad press.

D&C 64:23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/64.23?lang=eng

You kept all your receipts? Wow.

They are going to get people, like me, who tithed not out of fear, but out of greed. I wanted the Windows of Heaven to open.

They are going to tell the jury that you're just bitter. For every person you can get to testify that you and they were coerced, the jury is going to hear three people praise the tithing system and all the good it has done them, and society, and how willingly they contribute.

And they will harp big time on the issue of "when he believed, it wasn't us coercing him, it was his personal belief, and his desire to be 'saved'."

Someday cult behavior may be admissible evidence

I will even bet you that there are appellate court cases in Britain that support the church and that even if a jury sympathizes with you, the case will be appealed. That is, if your complaint is not successfully demurred to on the basis of stare decisis.

In glancing at US law, it used to be flat out, once you gave the money, freely, it was forever gone. Now the courts are recognizing that if the money you gave is not used for the purpose(s) that you felt merited the gift, you have a voice that should be heard on the issue of recovering the money or getting it 're-purposed.'

I am very certain that the above fact was the genesis of the changing of the wording at the bottom of the "Donation" slip.

I play golf to have a good time. If suing la iglesia mormona feels good, go for it. Just don't start spending the money yet; and don't forget that that money was untaxed, so Inland Revenue is going to be interested in any verdict you win, and maybe even in a settlement.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2016 05:32PM by elderolddog.

I think TCSS better hope you are not their Barrister with a reply like this (No offence):

"when he believed, it wasn't us coercing him, it was his personal belief, and his desire to be 'saved'."

In that line you probably hand me the win. What you are saying is that I BELIEVED what they said, and i DESIRED TO BE SAVED. What might i need to be saved from? What do i believe? I believed what THEY told me. I believed i needed to be saved because they convinced me i was going to suffer eternal death.

My gullibility is not a defence for them. Courts won't look at this and say, 'hey, you scammed an idiot, his loss'. They'll look and want to see whether i was actually persuaded i could suffer loss or harm if i did not do what they said. Hence coercion.

If i win this case (assuming it makes it to court) it will open up the floodgates in Europe for tithing refunds.

Good things will come of shining light on all aspects of this, imho. Wishing you strength, as tscc likely won't make it easy on you if they can help it! (Unless they go for a quick settlement?)

Good luck to you. I don't think that this type of case would get very far in the U.S. But perhaps in Britain it has a somewhat better chance.

I can tell you as a born and raised Catholic, the Catholic church has a vastly different attitude toward donations. Catholics understand that various bills must be paid (church maintenance, utilities, priests' salaries, church secretary, organist, etc.) They donate with an eye to paying those bills. There are no promises of blessings, exaltation, or what have you in exchange for the donations. There are no warnings of possible punishments for a failure to pay. In fact Catholics generally expect that the poor will pay very little or nothing at all, and no judgment is attached to this. Parish members donate whatever they comfortably feel they can. No amount is suggested.

My guess is that the CoE, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. are fairly similar.

I saw a statistic that the average church donation in the U.S. is 2.6% of income. My own estimate is 1-3% as an average amount, with Catholics coming in at the lower end of that range, and Protestants somewhat higher.