I think this would piss off Mormons : (assuming their belief sets here)

Jesus experienced and went through everything anyone ever has.
Exmormons have experienced both belief and lack of belief. They have experienced being members of the church and also the hardships of leaving it.

Active Mormons have NOT experienced leaving the church nor a lack of belief.

Therefore exmormons are closer to Jesus in experience than Mormons are!

Thoughts? Arguments? Just a silly idea I had today...

Interesting thought. I've heard TBM's say that Jesus felt every pain imaginable individually in the garden. He felt every physical and emotional pain...menstrual cramps, every imaginable form of rape, guilt, shame, etc... They even say he felt abandoned on the cross and exclaimed "why hast thou forsaken me?". However, would TBM's agree that he felt doubt? He's a demigod with superpowers that created the world and had angels attending him. How could he have doubted anything? As a TBM, I don't think I would have agreed that he experienced doubt. Of course, I never believed that he felt every individual pain anyone could ever feel. I always just thought he felt pain greater than anyone else could possibly ever endure.

You need to see Bergman's Winter Light.

One of my favorite movies by the Master.

The crux is that Jesus only felt like what it was like to be us piddly self-absorbed humans was when he experienced doubt and abandonment from God.

an amazingly powerful movie.

The idea that Jesus suffered menstrual cramps and the pain of childbirth always pushed my bullshit button. He didn't have those organs. And then that would lead me to questioning what omnipotence truly meant.....and that was a scary train of thought. So I'd shut it down, but remain with this vague sense of feeling anger and a little betrayal, and that somehow it was lesser to be a woman.

Jesus didn't doubt belief in his Creator or in his divine calling.

He would not have accepted the false premise of Mormonism and would've condemned it right along with the Pharisees and idolatry of his age.

Mormons belief set is in a false gospel, false prophets and prophecy. So it's a misplaced belief rather than a lack of belief Mormons suffer from. Jesus would've experienced that feeling of abject voidness too no doubt as he struggled with all the pain, sorrow, loneliness, and emptiness of the human condition leading up to the cross.

It was taught he suffered more in Gethsamane than on the cross. It was Gethsamane he bled from every pore as he prayed to God to remove the cup if it was the will of the Father. He knew he was subject to be the atoning sacrifice. That is one concept I still see as realistic out of the many I do not.

As for your point that as ex-Mormons we may have more in common with the life of Christ, and the people he mixed with, point taken. Why he'd even try to save old Joseph Smith if he could, after he cast out a few demons first and sent his many wives a'packing!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2016 11:07PM by Amyjo.

I've often wondered how much shit Jesus took when he apostatized from Judism.
He was BIC Jew.
It musta been hell for him and his Jewish parents!

I never really thought about it before, but a person would probably look really scary right after having bled from EVERY pore in their body. I'm getting this "Carrie" kind of image.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/stephenking/images/b/be/Carrie-1976-edited-BE.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20140315053321

It is a real physical malady known as Hematidrosis. Rare, but real enough.

"The New Testament indicates that Jesus underwent hematidrosis before the Crucifixion of Jesus, during the Agony in the Garden (Luke 22:44).[9][10] These claims are plausible, given that the modern day dermatological research notes the presence of hematidrosis in people awaiting execution.[10] It has also been proposed as a possible explanation for claims associated with stigmata.[11][12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis

"Hematohidrosis is a rare condition in which a human being sweats blood.[1] Leonardo Da Vinci described a soldier who sweated blood before battle. Jesus Christ experienced hematohidrosis while praying in the garden of Gethsemane before his crucification as mentioned in the Defenders Bible by Physician Luke as “and being in anguish he prayed more earnestly and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”

The causes of hematohidrosis have been divided into nonreligious and religious. The nonreligious causes are as a component of systemic disease, vicarious menstruation (bleeding from a surface other than the mucous membrane of the uterine cavity that occurs at the time when normal menstruation should take place), excessive exertion, psychogenic, and unknown factors. Duan et al. reported hematohidrosis associated with primary thrombocytopenic purpura.[2] Migliorini described a case of hematidrohosis otorrhea with otoerythrosis.[3] Dubeikovskaia reported hematohidrosis in a 8-year-old child.[4]

The religious cause is a stigma, which formerly meant a spot, a sign, a wound, or a mark branded on a slave. From the time of Christ's crucifixion, this term took on the special meaning as the reproduction of the wounds on palms, soles and crown that Christ suffered on the cross and it was believed to be supernaturally imposed by God. Jacobi (1923), quoted by Klauder, reported 300 instances of stigma (stigmata). Most of the stigmata patients were females both Catholics and non Catholics."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810702/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2016 08:00AM by Amyjo.

In looking at stigmata images, I see that the location of the marks varies from person to person. Some are marked on their palms, some on their wrists. Some have just a hole mark, others have a cross mark. Even a baby was marked - poor child.

I am not religious, so I only see medical, psychological and abuse issues here.

JMV but there is no clear Biblical reference that Jesus actually shed blood in the garden. The subject of the usual reference is his sweat and the verse suggests it was "like" blood and not that it was blood. Why didn't the writer just say he sweat blood? Sweat could have poured off him the way blood gushes from an open wound. The four Gospels were written for different purposes but it is surprising that such an unusual and supposedly signature event as sweat becoming blood would not be mentioned by other writers or even mentioned anywhere else in scripture. It may well have been blood but I think the emphasis on it on this board comes out of Mormon teachings and not necessarily orthodox Christian teachings. While I cannot claim empirical experience not once in my Christian experience have I heard a single teaching that the atonement took place in the garden. Whatever agony of anticipation Jesus suffered in the garden, to orthodoxy it in no way compares with the suffering of the cross when the sins of the entire world were laid upon him. It is the cross that is preached from that time on, not the garden, which is not mentioned again. IMV, Mormonism is shot through with ideas and doctrine that reduce the significance of the cross and the garden atonement is front and center.

But Christ did NOT bleed in the garden! It was "like" drops of blood but not literally drops of blood and even this is only found in Luke and not even in the oldest copies of Luke. The rare bleeding is not "from every pore" nor being "great drops of blood" even in such a rare case. Bleeding is of a clotting substance and the drops are large and a significant bleeding would flow while sweat normally just runs down the body. I have seen major sweating in a military camp but it is not similar to the way blood drops as I have also seen that. I have a bleeding problem and if I am cut it pours out. But in one case I saw such great sweat in a cohort that it was "like" drops of blood! IOW the description would be as in Luke. As I wrote in another thread, had Christ been covered in blood, he would not have been touched!

I worked construction in Fresno, in the summer.

Trust me, sweat fell "like" great drops of blood.

It's more poetic to say that than, perhaps, "great drops of sweat, like dog drool, fell from Jesus."

My personal revelation, such as it is, includes among other things the idea that I should emulate Jesus and apply some of his teachings in my daily life. For example, not judge others. Treat others as I would have them treat me. And when I need guidance, turn to that private, internal voice (as Jesus counsels in Matthew 6) rather than stand up and blab a "testimony" in front of a couple hundred mostly strangers checking their Facebook pages.

The church would have us embrace Jesus because of what it can do for US--i.e., personal salvation. To me, that's not what Jesus is about. Jesus is about reminding me to help others, and never mind what kind of reward I will supposedly get in the afterlife simply by telling myself that I'm "saved."

So, for me it's not so much that I'm closer to Jesus as that my interpretation of what Jesus stands for and what I'm supposed to do with that information--act selflessly vs. conspire for the quid-pro-quo of the alleged "celestial kingdom"--is the opposite of what the church teaches.

thatsnotmyname Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus experienced and went through everything
> anyone ever has.

Jesus was married and raised kids?
Jesus masturbated?
Jesus was in a car accident?
Jesus was laid off from his job by a greedy corporation?
Jesus made international trips on modern airplanes, and suffered jet lag while trying to close a business deal?
(I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the point)

Hmm.
Perhaps "Jesus" DIDN'T experience and go through everything anyone ever has.

Fictional characters aren't constrained by crazy little things like time and space.

Yeah I don't believe in Jesus actually but I was framing my thought from a Mormon perspective. I received countless lessons on the idea that Jesus experienced (emotionally/spiritually) everything. So if he were real and you believed he didn't actually masterbate physically the teachings I received were that he still knew what it felt like thanks to his time in the garden.

Yes. He did everything on that cross.

Naughty Jesus!

Yes.
Besides a lot of blood there was likely a LOT of shittin' n' pissin' too...

Mormonism doesn't let The Adversary control their trials of faith. They want to be both the devils and gods.

Closer to Jesus? Yes, ExMos are closer to Jesus in being more authentic people if you believe Jesus was real. Even if he wasn't he advocated being more authentic than ritualistic in living a life I think.

If I'm wrong than they can be closer to Jesus than me.

My personal belief is that Jesus was not a real person, merely a character to teach important life lessons like honesty and kindness, and its mainly because of the idea that he suffered through everything everyone ever has, for the whole universe, in that one moment, in the garden. No one could survive that much grief and anguish in one moment.
I accept the idea that Jesus could be a real person, but it would be the Christian view that he suffered for us on the cross, and not in the garden. He died on the cross, so it'd be more plausible for him to atone for us there.

There was no Jesus. So, no, we exmos are not closer to him than active Mormons.

There MAY have been an itinerant rabbi named Jesus that roamed around the area preaching love and unity...but no Jesus The Christ that Paul conjured up (shades of Joseph Smith, eh?).

There was no Adam and Eve and therefore, no "Original Sin" and therefore, no need for redemption, hence no crucifixion or resurrection. It's all Paul's confabulation.

I think closer to the truth would be that Jesus was a myth conjured up by the collective unconscious. There are a dozen similar Messiah myths. It's really the message that counts. Be the Christ because under the singing, dancing crap of the world that's what we all are. Mormons bear the burden of being covered in an additional layer of crap. Poor them.

My freeling is, as your last sentence says, " Just a silly idea I had today..."

But then again, I am a nevemo.

It makes sense that many ExMos would be closer to Jesus than Mormons.

After all, we're closer to nature. Closer to art. Closer to reason. Closer to family. Closer to science. Closer to pleasure. Closer to freedom. Closer to tolerance. Closer to love. Closer to truth. Closer to humility. Closer to history. Closer to equality. Closer to joy.

Jesus may have to get in line behind everything else we're closer to than Mormons, but we'll get to Him eventually.

Well-l-l...I don't know about the "humility" part...

These are my thoughts

There are 2 leaders/powers, Jesus and satan

The garden episode was satan throwing every punishment, guilt, negative emotion on Jesus and Jesus's spiritual power had to endure it, and be stronger than it.

That was so he can rescue us from satan, otherwise if we don't use the atonement, satan has claim on us.

thatsnotmyname Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Active Mormons have NOT experienced leaving the
> church nor a lack of belief.

And BIC members have no personal experience of never having been a Mormon. They never went through a conversion process without any previous Mormon influence.

I sort of envied converts when I was a kid. They weren't raised in the church. They had something to compare Mormonism to. They knew what it was like to not be a Mormon. THEY HAD A CHOICE! I wondered if I would've converted if I had been raised in some other religion, or no religion. My well-suppressed inner atheist knew I wouldn't have.

Jesus was not and is not real .Jesus is a story .End of story.