My TBM wife and I agreed that we wanted a large family when we got married. We both came from large families and wanted the same. However, three kids later, I was spent. My wife wanted one more.

We debated the issue for quite a while. I though we were stretched thin with three and that four would push us over the edge. I didn't think we could give four kids the attention they needed. As it was, we didn't have a spare second to spend on ourselves.

This was all being discussed around the time that I learned the truth about the "church". We were regularly arguing about religion and my wife, parents, and in-laws all reacted badly. I became very depressed for months and was seriously contemplating suicide.

I gave in to her request for another baby, all while thinking "Why do I care? I'm going to kill myself anyways, and you'll be rich from the insurance money and can go marry some TBM." Messed up, I know, but I wasn't thinking clearly at that point.

Things eventually got better with my wife and our fourth child was born. I love all of our kids, but I do think we're stretched too thin. I get home from work exhausted and have an hour or two to spend with the kids before they're off to bed. I feel like none of them are getting enough of my time. I think my wife does a pretty good job spending one-on-one time with each of them though.

Is this just the life of a working parent?...see your kids a couple hours a day at most, sacrifice all your spare time and energy on them, stress constantly about their safety, future, and how you'd ever provide for them if you lost your job? Does it get any better as they get more independent, or is it all downhill from here? I'm just in a funk and can't seem to snap out of it.

Worth what?

Why did your wife want kids? For what purpose?
To raise up souls to be sacrificed to the cult of Joseph?
If so -- no, it's not worth it.

My wife and I decided to have two. We did. They're now 19 and 15. Then -- surprise -- an unexpected, late, improbable pregnancy. And so now we have 3, a gorgeous little cutie who's 11 months old today.

I could make all the "negative" arguments...I'll be 73 when she graduates high school, I'm too old to raise an infant, I thought I was done and was looking forward to being an "empty nester," etc. etc. etc.

But this new child brings light and love into my life every single day. It was worth it.

TBM's will argue that those that don't want kids, or that don't want kids until they're older, are being selfish, but I think it's just the opposite. It's selfish to have a bunch of kids you can't properly care for because you think God commanded you to "multiply". It's selfish and prideful to think you can be a good parent to a horde of kids just because you think babies are cute. Mormon kids having 4-5 kids in their 20's don't know what they're getting themselves into. They're barely adults, and they never stopped to think.

Honestly, if most 'adults' stopped to really think about what they were getting into for the long haul regarding child rearing there would be a significant reduction in the population growth of the world.

Having children requires no license, pedigree, or classes in parenting. People keep saying "it should." If it did, there would be another significant drop in population growth.

Most babies are born to parents in their 20's. Today the rules are changing as older career people start families later. There are no hard and fast rules when to start a family. Though I believe when you have them at a younger age you have a significant advantage 'energy wise' than were you to have them when you're older. Albeit older parents starting out has its virtues too considering maturity and being better off financially (maybe.)

Maybe if you hadn't been born a Mormon you wouldn't have married so young and had any children at all. People who get married and start families where I live are not LDS. They still start in their 20's, ready or not.

It see it as part hormones, and age factor. Maybe true love for the really lucky ones.

If people were to wait until things were optimal, there would be a lot fewer people on this planet. Some would say that's a good thing. Then there are countries with hardly any population growth at all to replace aging populations, like Japan.

Young people there are not marrying and having children like their parents did a generation before. And they are more educated than ever, but with a stagnant economy.

So much goes into parenting readiness-how you were raised, current examples around you, personal expectations. I can relate to two aspects you mentioned. Fatigue and not spending what you perceive as quality time. Busy pediatric and neonatology practice. Wife less busy in transplant but busy also. I recognized that after age five peer group had steadily increasing effects. We both recognized to spend as much time as we could, guide their peer group choices and spent time discussing qualities they should look for in future mates. All three luckily made good choices- careers, mates and now family size of their own. Maybe it does take a village to raise a child...

In years of practice I did see parents make very bad choices. Just based on your concerns don't see you doing that. Blessings.

Gatorman

My children were worth all the toil, pain and sacrifice of raising them. It was more joy than pain actually, not counting the labor.

And I was a single parent. My commute each day to and from work gobbled up around three of my hours, when I worked in Manhattan. I had a wonderful boss during those years who let me come in late and leave early as long as my work got done, he didn't care I put in an exact number of hours. So I was blessed during that time to be able to be more of a hands on parent getting the children back and forth to pre-school, then grade school, etc.

Our family time was sacred. I was exhausted at the end of the day, but we always ate dinner together. Their homework was done by bedtime, and we had time left over for family time evey day of the week.

I wouldn't trade all of that for the world, even if I could do it over again.

Once they've grown and on their own, you'll look back on those days and wonder how could they have gone by in a flash? And wish they were young again, under your roof, when you could tuck them in at night.

Children change your life in a good way. Don't expect them to live up to your expectations, however. Allow them the ability to flower and bloom the way they're intended to, and they will hopefully flourish knowing they're cared for and loved.

Most of all cherish them. When I ran into a rough patch with one of mine, and we had a communication gap I prayed about what to do to reach my teenager? I was going through all the motions of being a "good" parent, so didn't know what was missing. I love/d my children dearly regardless. The answer to my prayer was to "Cherish" them as in active verb.

Once I engaged my mind to cherish actively no matter what was going on around us at home, on the phone, or wherever... I could sense things changed for the better.

I was tired and exhausted as a single parent. But there was that something more I needed to implement to be a better parent. Turned out that being actively engaged in cherishing my children heart and soul was what I needed to work on.

Like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof, when he asked his wife Golde did she love him? She would answer look at all she did for him, wasn't that love? Well, yes and no.

It's also a feeling, and emotion that can either be suppressed & stifled, or just displayed in how we communicate and convey our messages to those we love.

Yes, to me, having kids was worth it, exhausting, but very much worth it. The three of them are grown now and left the nest when they went off to college. I was fortunate enough to be home with them while I ran a business in my home. I realize it is a never ending job, but they do grow up and their immediate needs become less as they age. I feel for you because you are in a time of your life now that is completely physically exhausting. You and your wife really need to have couple time and time for yourselves as well. My hubby and I had date night, his night and my night. Worked out very well for us.It kept us sane. My oldest does not want to have children and I respect that. He enjoys travel and his independence and his solitude. To each his own. Just to give you hope, it really does get easier. My best to you and big hugs from this MexMom.

I just had my first and while it's been a bit of a rough road (all good, thought) it's been totally worth it.

I don't think I would have been unfulfilled had we opted not to have kids, though.

AnonAnon... Wrote:
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> Is this just the life of a working parent?

Yes and no.

I had kids when I was TBM. After Mormonism I realized I am a terrible parent. It is quite the wake up call.

I try to love them as best that I can. I came from a big family and my wife came from a midsize (for big Mormon families) family.

I'm glad you and your wife are making an effort with the children you have.

There's no way to say if "they're worth it" because everyone is different. What I can say is you'll be glad you valued them and their needs. It wouldn't be a good feeling to think you hadn't tried to do your best with them.

Cheryl Wrote:
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> It
> wouldn't be a good feeling to think you hadn't
> tried to do your best with them.

True and it also isn't a good feeling to know that your previous beliefs are pretty much what motivated you to have children thinking it was your mission in life to fulfill a father's role.

Not having children was never on the table. It literally wasn't and option. Only selfish and greedy people did that.

Luckily, we only had a few. I love them because they are my kids. I do everything mentally and physically possible I can do for them without it making me crazy.

Supporting them in Mormonism is not on option for me. My children know that I feel like I was put on a narrow path that I didn't want to be on but didn't know any different or any better.

I've told them that if they don't want to marry or have children that is awesome. They need to do what they want to do with their lives and not what the Mormon Church envisions for them.

I think they understand where I'm coming from. They are growing up and seem to want to marry and have a couple of kids like the rest of 2.5 children and a pet Americans.

They know that I'm not a pet person and most of them will be getting pets when they get out of my house. I'm not pushing them out. They know that I love and support them in whatever they choose for themselves in life.

Unfortunately, they are more guided by the Mormonism their saintly (she actually is one contrary to some of the saints she knows) mother supports them in. My wife is a great and loving parent. She has been a great example to me. Unfortunately, she supports Mormonism. I don't get it. She isn't like so many Mormons.

IT IS NOBODY'S BUSINESS BUT MINE!!!

And any kids you have.

To quote a character in a not so famous movie, but which I love anyway:

"Even when you know you know, you never know..."

I know that kids are a necessary evil, but why so many of them? What happens when there are too many deer? Ya gotta thin the herd!

I call BS on the Readers' Digest versions of raising kids. I get the idea that the vast majority of the thoughtful people here on RfM are glad they had kids, but raising them is not walks in the park followed by beautiful sunsets. And there is no such thing as the Perfect Way to Raise Kids.

And while I have no proof, I doubt anyone will ever change my mind about my notion that the worst parents are the ones who think they own their kids.

As for the OP's question, "is having kids worth it?", we'd like it to be, but sometimes it backfires on us. You cross your fingers and hope you get lucky. Not everyone does.

Sure wish they'd put something in the food and water to prevent pregnancies and then when you want to have kids, the parents have to prove to the Department of Having Babies that they fit within an approved profile of intelligence, temperament and resources, in order for them to get a six months dose of the anti-pregnancy antidote.

Oh! I also want to fly, like in my dreams!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> And while I have no proof, I doubt anyone will
> ever change my mind about my notion that the worst
> parents are the ones who think they own their
> kids.

I think there are worse parents - those that think that what they own is an inanimate object, animal, or slave to do with as it pleases them.

My mother thinks she owns her children. Luckily, it is mostly in a subservient mirror reflection of her way and not a toy to play with and destroy. I got kicked out not killed.

There is a difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 02:02PM by Elder Berry.

I left something out of my thread answer above. To create a special time- however short- I used to participate in as many evening baths as I could. We had three kids fast, almost in the same litter. We-they and I - would sing the "Duke of Earl" in the bathroom every night. That gives away my age but even to this day they remember that. Having children has well been worth it and as my years advance even more worth it. Memories can be created in so many unique ways

By the way I was such a great parent neither my once TBM wife or any of my children or theirs want anything to do with the church

Gatorman

gatorman Wrote:
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> By the way I was such a great parent neither my
> once TBM wife or any of my children or theirs want
> anything to do with the church

I've read this 4 times. Can you restate for me?

Neither my wife, nor my (our) children nor theirs (grandchildren) want anything to do with the church.

Gatorman

Congrats!

Duke of Earl... 1962, senior year in high school, heading west on Bonanza after going through the railway underpass, on my way to pick up a date, in my 1956 Studebaker, early spring and it comes on the radio. Hearing it or just seeing the name zaps me back to that moment in time. I'd heard it plenty before and after, but for some reason, that's where it takes me.

Time. Quality means everything. Be there for the important milestones. Offer advice in a loving way. Those things will get you far when it comes to raising children.

you can't get the grandkids. :) And they are definitely worth it.

I have advised my daughters and their hubby's that if I had to do it over I would have stopped at two.

Not enough personal time or money to really be a dedicated and available parent if financial and time stress on top of just trying to survive life here on planet earth is a constant battle that sucks the life from quality kid/parent time.

But you've already got four and can't send them back.

Do your best. Teach them how to think and teach them what you think about having kids (preferably when they are a bit older).

It's a crap shoot, just like life.

I just wish people knew how demanding it is to raise kids, and that they would prepare accordingly. Most don't do this. My parents didn't. They just had too many kids because that's what was expected -- and they weren't even Mormon.

I agree that having kids is a crapshoot, since you have no idea how they'll turn out. It's not just Mormons who have kids without being ready for them, but they're one of those groups who get married to someone they barely know, and then have their first child before their first wedding anniversary.

It could be said that the zika virus and other diseases are nature's way of "thinning the herd" with human overpopulation.

No matter what you have to go through, or sacrifice or give up,

having children is so worth it. I wouldn't trade an instant of

it. My kids are my heart.

My kids are my spleen and half one kidney, so I know exactly what you mean!!

I knew you would.

No.

I am the 4th of 5 kids. I was neglected and abused. My oldest sister got sent to BYU, all expenses paid. My other sister and older brother got doted on. I got told that there was no money for college for me, so I better figure out what I was going to do, because they sure as hell were not going to support me past high school graduation.

I have two kids, NOT raised as mormons. I had them in my 20s, 17 months apart. I admit, it was tough because I worked full time, and was a single mom for part of it...and went to school too. However, my two kids were/are/always will be the most important thing in my life. I always wanted to be a mother, even tho I despised having it shoved down my throat as a kid by the church. Being a mother to my two kids is the BEST thing I ever did.

I would have had more if I could, but I couldn't...and looking back, I'm kinda glad I didn't have any more. I definitely have more patience now, but I surely don't have the energy. The advantage is...my kids will soon be parents (I hope, but no pressure from me) and I am young enough to enjoy grandkids.

So....worth it for me, probably not to my parents, since I turned out to be such an apostate disappointment! hahahaha

applesauce

Ask me just after my granddaughter has squeeled with delight into my ear that she is coming to my house and will their be marshmellows and can she and I go for a walk and can she jump off the big rocks?

Do not ask me when I cry tears that another granddaughter is choosing to do as she has been indoctrinated (and yes, I played some, MUCH to my regret, into that indoctrination) to go on a mission for the cult at only l9 to a country where it is possible for her to return home with a parasite in her stomach or fungus on her toes or possibly, not return at all.

Really, I have loved overall being a parent. I admit that I went into the job blindly, for not the best of reasons, but I can now dare say that I am older (that is certain) and wiser (some would debate this declaration), that if you give parenting your best shot, attempting to correct your mistakes, and HANG IN THROUGH THICK AND THIN, it is VERY, VERY WORTH IT and your children (we had 8), grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will realize that this is what counts and will love you for it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 06:29PM by presleynfactsrock.

Being a single mother was very difficult. Those years were hell, at least until I healed. I actually think my kids have been more difficult since they graduated from high school than while in high school. I had a very difficult time with toddlers and babies, though I always wanted 8 until I had twins. I know my daughter thinks I could have done better. My son thinks I did great with what I had to deal with.

My daughter almost married the 16th of 16 children. I thought that he and his sister just older than he is did really good and that their mother must have done such a great job UNTIL I got to know them better, found out about things that had happened in their family, etc. I was angry my daughter didn't go through with the marriage, but now I realize it is best she didn't. I wish I could actually fix life for her ex-fiance, but I can't and she can't. Being 16th was just not something any person should have to deal with.

My kids are my life. They are why I'm still alive. But there are days! Even when I'm the most angry at my daughter (and I don't get to see her that often), the moment I get to see her again, I know she is a part of me. I cannot exist without her or my son. To me, I can do without a boyfriend or a spouse. I cannot live without those 2 children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 06:57PM by cl2.

I once asked my mother why she had only two children. She stated that my dad was so immature she felt like she was raising him as well as her two children. She said that if Dad had been more helpful she might have wanted more but as it was she just couldn't manage another.

If your wife isn't contributing financially to the family I doubt she understands how stressed you are. Having children probably makes her feel relevant in the way work makes you feel relevant.

I've had no children and am completely content. I enjoy children and even taught first grade for awhile but admit that I enjoy the quiet, the security of my finances, the ability to travel and live a pretty selfish lifestyle. I totally think that had I had children during my 20's and early 30's without the education and experiences I gained in my late 30's I would have been a pretty horrible mother. Now I could probably do a decent job of parenting since I now understand so much more about child development and am more financially secure. I also see how much constant intelligent interactions with your kids improves their development and confidence in life. I'm glad I didn't have kids in the typical Mormon way.

As a side note: It has been shown that only children are not necessarily spoiled or maladjusted because they are without siblings. Statistically they actually tend to develop very well with the focus of both parents and added time and concern. Being spoiled has more to do with parenting style than number of siblings.

As an only child, I support your views and will vote for you in both the primary and general elections.

Kathleen Madigan, who is childless, says that she sends out Christmas cards to her married-with-children friends, with photos of her sleeping late and having extra money.