Hi everyone. First a short intro: I was not only brought up without religion but often taught to strongly resist it in favour of science and evidence.

I am living in the UK and I was recently approached by some sweet women who are "missionaries" and I found that one of them has a blog, which I read, and I felt that there really is some kind of wonderful person underneath all the religious garbage.

I am reluctant to completely attack religion because I think maybe people's lives are greatly simplified and made cosy and comfortable. That is the impression I got from the missionaries, at least. I can't help but think this could be advantageous or a more efficient way to live life in some way, rather than living in the pioneering world of reality, which can contain a lot of other toxic ideas that are out there which require some critical thinking or intelligence to assess, and a lot of ideas where it's difficult to tell what's right and wrong.

On the other hand, that cosy and comfortable world is not something I would personally want to join (or "suffer") at all because it would mean regressing to a child-like state in ways, as well as suppress progress and creativity.

I really want to know if there is a way of talking to the real person that those missionaries are, rather than a vessel for a cult / scam. I know there are wonderful amazing people there under the beliefs and I don't want those people to be wasted. I almost feel like a "missionary of reality" myself saying these things, as they might almost say virtually the same things about non-Mormons! Interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2016 09:29PM by carmineermine.

We are a minute or so away from beginning our monthly "day off," carmineermine.

There will be responses beginning Monday morning (though I don't know the exact time).

Have a wonderful Sunday!!!!!!!!!

that 'cosy and comfortable world' only works for a some people. For many people (the majority, I would say) have to scrimp and save to afford the 10% bounty that the church demands. they have to abandon family time to do the work required by the church. they have to forestall their start to 'real life' because the church demands they become a missionary for 2 years.

Missionaries tend to be very focused.... this is reinforced by numerous church/missionary meetings, and the simple fact that they have to spend 24/7 with another person who is likely to report them, if they try to lead anything approaching 'normal life'

the 'amazing, wonderful people, have to push every aspect of their personality down, to be a salesman for the church, 24/7.

many ex missionaries frequent this board and can tell their own stories - but, in my experience, you will rarely see the real person behind the nametag *at least* until a few months after their mission

In addition to a lifetime of heavy brainwashing, here are the "rules" that the "wonderful person" must obey:

https://www.lds.org/manual/missionary-handbook?lang=eng

They go to a training center to learn it.

Especially, see the "conduct" section.

There may be a truly wonderful person buried under the religion, but your questions lead me to believe that you are unprepared to "save" her. Even well-prepared people can do little more than "plant seeds" of freedom.

You can he be nice, but honest.

Here's what young missionaries have to put up with:

I knew of one sister missionary who, with a tear rolling down her cheek, was informed that her grandma had died. Despite being mere weeks from the end of her mission, which she was only 1,600 miles away, she insisted on completing her mission, missing her funeral.

Almost immediately after her mission ended, she married a man (presumably TBM) she never met. Currently she's got herself and her new husband depicted on her Facebook page, though curiously she hasn't updated it since then. You get the picture.

It's a sad life young LDS missionaries lead. Be understanding to them.

The best thing we can do for a missionary is to force them to respect our own personal boundaries. Teach them that, when we say "No!" we mean "No!" Show them that each individual human being has rights, personal space, and personal freedoms.

We can challenge them on their beliefs, but we serve them best by teaching by our examples. When they see us being free, being whole, being for the most part happy WITHOUT the stifling dishonest mind-control their religion pushes on them, that will help them long-term far more than engaging with them in abstract discussions of theology or reason, in my opinion.

Missionaries need to learn to respect others' choices. They want to change everyone and make them into the mormon prototype. They need to learn to accept that not everyone wants to be a mormon.

If they realized this, they could be free to go home and do productive work to help themselves and others in productive ways.

Talking to brainwashed missionaries about their agenda usually only causes frustration for everyone involved. They are trained as slick-talking salesmen with stock mind-stopping answers for any and all objections.

If you decide to have a conversation with them, ask them about their home, their family, their friends, and their personal lives outside of mission clap-trap. This is the only way to shake them loose from their brainwashed mindset.

Absolutely right about asking them about the non-LDS stuff. We have some lady missionaries who stop by regularly--their apartment is nearby. They come by not to proselytize but to take a load off--I fill them up with lunch and snacks.

And then I ask them about home, about their siblings, about where they're going to school after they get back, about sports and hiking and anything I can think of.

I can sometimes see on their faces the wistful yearning for actual, real life--the life outside the LDS bubble, the life of honest emotions and the human affection and the true splendors of Creation that doesn't need false ideology to justify its existence. We appreciate them as the human beings they want to return to, not as the faux-soldiers whose uniforms they wear so poorly.

For every Mormon living cosy and comfortable courtesy of their religion there is another Mormon or Ex-Mormon paying a very heavy price. Mormonism is only a free ride for those who have narrowed their vision and buried any true empathy they may have had.

If the missionary is a perfect fit for the religion you won't get an in depth conversation.

If the missionary is only there because of family pressure there may be a crack in the armor that is available to you. The thing is though, they are always together, so it would be rare to have one open up in front of the other. Too risky.

When I was on my mission, those people I talked to who were open and honest and seemed to be interested in us but not the church really touched me and made a difference.

>>I really want to know if there is a way of talking to the real person that those missionaries are, rather than a vessel for a cult / scam.

You can to a degree, but to about the same extent that you would talk to the "real" salesman who is trying to sell you a used car. Missionaries are salespeople for the Mormon church and they live a highly controlled lifestyle. Their job is to sell you the church, and everything else is in service of that. One of the lessons in their Missionary Training Center is on "building relationships of trust." So if they are engaging in getting-to-know-you chat, it is because they ultimately want to baptize you.

Adding my tuppence to the pile…

Those missionaries have only one objective in their lives, and that is to sell Mormonism to anyone they encounter. The Mormon church is, quite frankly, a cult – severely authoritarian, highly controlling, and demanding, much like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

At this stage of their lives, they're locked into an even more restrictive, totalitarian system, a cult within the cult. Every aspect of their existence is dictated by the church. The church orders them when to get up and when to go to bed; what to wear, read, say, and think; where they must live and with whom; and so on. They are expected to obey their leaders exactly, without question or hesitation. They're not permitted to contact their families independently, even in times of crisis or emergency. You may think this can't possibly be factual, that I'm joking or exaggerating, but I am assuredly not.

They have been heavily indoctrinated since early childhood that the Mormon church is "true." They've been told countless times that anything they hear or come across that is at odds with their indoctrination, or that does not depict the church in a positive light, is a lie directly from the devil. (Satan is very real to them.) If they're from Utah or Idaho, it's even worse, as they'll have been raised within a Mormon-dominated society, and as such they have no other frame of reference.

With few exceptions, Mormon missionaries have developed no capacity to think critically about their church. They simply cannot imagine that Mormonism is not all it claims to be. As a result, I'm sorry to say, any effort to bring a measure of rationality into their lives is all but doomed from the start. It will just bounce off them; they'll most likely respond by testifying to you that they know their church is true, and then write you off as "too proud" to listen to their message. They desperately want to sell their church, and if you make it clear you won't be a paying customer, they won't bother with you.

You could try to get to know them better, but they'll interpret any response (other than outright rejection) as evidence that "The Spirit" is softening your heart and preparing you to learn about Mormonism. That's just how they're trained to think. It may well make them more enthusiastic in pushing the church onto you – while still being wonderfully nice about it – and if you're in any way reluctant to hurt the feelings of these "sweet women," you're potentially opening yourself up to being pulled in even further, so be very careful. Also, missionaries are constantly being transferred in and out of their proselyting areas, so as soon as you get to know one, she's gone and replaced by another.

Long story short, engaging with them on any terms but theirs is going to be an exercise in futility and frustration. The good people underneath are buried under too many layers of Mormonism to be extricated in the brief period you'll have to work with them. That's life in a cult.

^^^^^This^^^^^^^

I'd also add that you don't have to be rude or trash them personally. The Boner.

Amazing description of the mission. This is it to a tee.

When I first met them, they really did seem surprised that I could be so happy with my life (the first thing they asked as their opener was "what makes you happy?" and since I am actually extremely confident with my own happiness, I impressed them with my knowledge of the subject of happiness and how I built it up over time), and they said I was very intelligent and that they are my fan. On one hand that could be seen as their sales technique but on the other hand I thought maybe it was possible to do some kind of "reverse feedback", in that they invest some time into trying to convert me, and, to be successful, they have to listen to what I say too, building a bond. I think I just wasn't good enough at that though but I can imagine someone who is really good with people being witty enough to pull it off.

During the meeting my "terms and conditions" were very clear that I would have to have a definite chance of marrying and having children as a result before it was possible for me to convert. Plus, the less-experienced one offered me the Book of Mormon a few times, which I refused to take, but the more-experienced one told her she doesn't have to give me it.

I think they must have then decided that I couldn't be "sold" it so easily, and given up. They haven't contacted me since. Although they did tell me when they will finish their mission and that during it they aren't allowed on YouTube or Facebook or anything so they wouldn't be able to communicate.

If I could have met them again maybe I would maybe take the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to show them and explain how this is really nice and maybe offer them to take it. As a joke. Or this might just insult them if done wrongly.

I sent a few nice texts saying stuff like "good luck today, Sisters" and saying I found their blog (wait, are they even allowed to have a blog? Or is the blog organised / supervised by the church? As it does seem to say something like "this is the blog of Sister [x] to document her mission" as if it's under some kind of supervision, plus it was definitely created specifically corresponding to the start of her mission and though it does describe her excitement about the new location and friends and encounters such as random people's reactions to them, it is also accompanied by things such as "feeling the influence of Satan so much but I resisted it, the Lord is better" or something along those lines).

Also I read their dress code just now (on the Missionary Handbook someone linked to me above), and thought, I remember they were actually wearing shorter skirts than it tells them to (just over knee length), and their knees were clearly visible when sitting down... they had to pull their skirt over. Makes me think maybe they are not so strict. My intuition tells me maybe they are trying to balance being attractive for sales purposes with being modest for religious purposes.

Also it is quite salient how I have only ever been picked up by female Mormons (this is the third pair I've had try during my years there) and I have heard of women being approached by male Mormons. Must be something about it. I actually like that they do it and (as they probably know), it really is far more effective than being approached by people of the same gender, so kudos to them.

I think, next time, I may be more prepared. I think I went a bit too far in my demands this time. The first time, I was debating whether to get baptised since I actually think it is meaningless and that I would not be held to any demands, but I didn't go for it in the end because I couldn't be bothered. Would they try to control me if I did? and how would they go about that?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2016 08:59PM by carmineermine.

Tell them wine makes you happy. Lots of wine. Red wine, white wine, Italian wine, French wine, shoot... Even California wine. Then ruminate a second, and announce, "And sex makes me happy. Lots of it. In bed, in the kitchen, on the dining table..." You will no longer have to deal with them, and you will have come off as nice doing so.

"they said I was very intelligent and that they are my fan. On one hand that could be seen as their sales technique"

Yes, that's exactly what it is. See Summer's post above about "building relationships of trust."


"If I could have met them again maybe I would maybe take the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to show them and explain how this is really nice and maybe offer them to take it."

Joke or not, I doubt it will make a difference. As I said previously, they're conditioned to reject anything that isn't pro-Mormon. It would be a waste of everyone's time.


"I found their blog (wait, are they even allowed to have a blog? Or is the blog organised / supervised by the church?"

They can blog, and it is all about the church. It's meant to be a faith-affirming means of showing their families and others just how wonderful and amazing missions are. The missionaries know that they're only supposed to post positive things, so the blogs are self-censored. Often they consist of weekly emails sent home which their parents post online. (This doesn't contradict what I wrote about being forbidden to contact families independently. These regular emails are monitored by the church and sent on a church-based mail server. Email addresses not under church control, such as GMail, are prohibited.)


"The first time, I was debating whether to get baptised"

OK, that's just crazy talk. There are many people on this board who desperately want to leave the church *but can't* due to a still-believing spouse and church interference, and you were thinking of joining… why? On a lark? You're not even religious. You're playing with fire here.


"since I actually think it is meaningless and that I would not be held to any demands"

*You* may think it's meaningless – and it is – but *they* don't. In the eyes of the church, to be baptized is to make solemn promises to the church for life, and they'll expect you to keep those promises. You think you won't be held to any demands? You could not be more wrong. The church has the conceit that it owns its members, and that it has the god-given right to make any claim on them, whether of time, money, or anything else it may want.

– Three hours of church every Sunday. Three solid hours of being bored out of your mind, sitting among others who are also bored out of their minds. Everyone at church will have heard the same lessons hundreds of times already, and no prospect of anything new. All they want to do is get out and go home.

– When you do get home, you have to "keep the Sabbath day holy." That means no recreational activities. Church activities only, like reading the Book of Mormon or doing your home or visiting teaching. Which brings me to…

– …Callings. You'll be given a "calling," which is an opportunity to provide service – to the church. Maybe it's working in the nursery or waving your arm around while pretending to conduct the music. More likely, though, it will be visiting teaching (you're female, right?), where you'll be assigned several other female members to visit each month, giving them the same lessons they hear in church, and making sure they're all hewing to the prescribed gospel path. You'll get a VT as well; same purpose, same lesson.

– This is one of our favorites. The church doesn't employ janitors or custodians, even though it's a multi-billion dollar corporation. And so you, along with all the others, will be assigned cleaning duties. You'll be expected to take precious time out of your Saturdays to vacuum, dust, and clean out church toilets. Being part of the Loo Brigade – not very appealing, is it?

– Tithing! Mormons are commanded to give 10% of their earnings to the church. And although the basis of the 10% is left vague, and they can't enforce it, you'll be heavily pressured to pay 10% of your gross earnings (top-line gross, before expenses or taxes). "Do you want gross blessings or net blessings from the Lord?" You can't go to the temple unless you pay a full tithe. The Mormons want you to go to the temple. Don't get me started on that one.


"Would they try to control me if I did?"

Hell yes, they would try their level best to control you, as much as possible. Here's some of what you can look forward to.

– Incessant lectures and sermons on the importance of obedience. Obedience to your local and regional priesthood leaders, and especially to the great ones in Utah. These men (always men) claim to receive direct inspiration and revelation from god because of their priesthood and piety, and having been baptized, you've bound yourself to obey them, even if you think they're dead wrong. Oh, and you're not allowed to criticize them in any way, even if the criticism is true.

– You must conform to their mode of dress. Women are especially restricted. Women are not to expose their shoulders to the gaze of men, lest they tempt the men into lustful thoughts. I AM NOT KIDDING. "Modesty" is the rule, and this rule even applies when not at church – on your own free time or at work.

– You don't say if you drink alcohol or coffee. If you do, you'll be expected to stop. And since you're in the UK, I presume you enjoy your spot of tea. Guess what? You can't have tea either. (Maybe herbal tea, but the tea that Brits are accustomed to is right out.)

– You'll be pressured to marry another Mormon and raise your children in the cult, ensuring another generation of brainwashed tithepayers.


"and how would they go about that?"

Well, they won't use brute physical force, and they wouldn't commit a crime. But they do try to use guilt, shame, and fear – that you made covenants, that you're letting god and Jesus down, that everyone at church looks down on you now, and that you won't get into Mormon heaven. None of which, I imagine, would have any effect on you. But why would you bring it on yourself in the first place?

Read the discussions here. Read about the people who have been hounded by the church for years to return to activity; who continue to have members and missionaries coming by their houses, unannounced and uninvited, at all hours of the day; and who have been tracked and followed by the church over half a dozen moves across the country.

Most converts do leave the church within a short time. Maybe you could manage to fade away as well. But it's so much easier to avoid it; an ounce of prevention vs. a pound of cure, or something like that.

I agree completely with Book of Mordor. If you wish to toy with the missionaries as a lark, have at it. It's not my idea of fun, but whatever. But don't get baptized on a lark. Once they get their claws into you, they don't willingly let go.

Thanks for your response. I'm male, however, having a family is important to me. "playing with fire" does sound like it would be, although thankfully they aren't the mafia. Does sound like a waste of time though (I have not done anything yet by the way, just to be clear, just speculating). I value my time a lot.

I like to think something will snap within a lot of them. After all, there are plenty of people here who had enough!

I'm just listening 'Christopher Hitchens on Mormons' on YouTube. Hopefully a well known video on this forum (his main point is that Joseph Smith was convicted of scamming and fraud and Mormonism is a proven scam - not that it needs him to say it).

I have a missionary son right now. He is programmed to ask you to be baptized the first time you meet with him (his mission president has set that policy). After being out for more than a year, no one has taken him up on it.

Good luck sowing the seeds of doubt, these are 18 and 19 year olds--young and idealistic. The Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2016 09:08PM by BYU Boner.

I'm afraid that's policy everywhere, and has been since possibly the 1960s. My mission (1969) was one of the first to use the new handbook, and the handbook mandated asking them to get baptized the first time you met them.