I am a former new ager who came upon your board. I wanted to update you on Greg Olsen & asked all of your insight about your former faith.

Greg Olsen decided to let his work of Jesus be used on an oracle deck for Doreen Virtue. Doreen Virtue is scam artist who tells people who can hear their very guardian angels & that she can talk to the dead. She calls herself a medium. She would seem to the number one seller of divination decks in the world. hthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rskwU0wUo80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MakGimfA8g

Virtue's stuff has been called out by others as not of God. http://www.broowaha.com/articles/1099/doreen-virtue-angel-therapy-or-a-frauds-mental-illness
http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?tag=doreen-virtue

Virtue has also been called out by skeptics for the stuff she runs on people: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Doreen_Virtue

I watched Doreen Virtue give out wrong suicide info in Seattle to a desperate black mom of a 20 yr old child Sept 2012.. . Virtue told that mom in front of 700 people that people who talk of suicide do not do it. They just want attention. They need counseling but they don't ever do it.". I filed a complaint with Hay House. Hay House never fixed the wrong suicide comment publicly & they continued to allow Virtue to give out more wrong medical comments in the name of angels while the kept selling her as really seeing & hearing other peoples guardian angels . http://desireekrautkramer.blogspot.com/2014/07/reid-tracys-reply-to-my-letter.html

Virtue sells certification to seemingly anyone as angel therapy practitioners & as angel mediums . Pay her money , watch a class & be certified.. She tells people via her realm reader course they may be incarnated leprechauns, fairies, mermaids, unicorns ,angels aliens etc.. She says some of the most craziest stuff tied to angels that can derail peoples mental health & their physical health that you can imagine. . .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQdn88TANak&list=UUxsG- https://www.facebook.com/CertifiedRealmReaders

When I found out that Greg Olsen had put Jesus on a oracle deck for Virtue I was aghast.. It will act as both a validator to her divination & as a funnel of believing Christians of all denominations esp to Mormons to Doreen Virtue's work & to Hay House. Christians seeing the deck in the local Barnes & Noble will be lured into Doreen Virtue's stuff thinking surely it must be of Jesus or Greg Olsen would not have tied to it.

I filed a complaint with the Mormon church , Deseret bookstore & with Greg Olsen himself. The LDS church's Deseret store continues to sell his stuff at Deseret though Olsen funnels to the new age in direct opposition to what is the Bible & despite the reality that what the new age teaches calls people to abandon all established religions for the new age. .

Greg Olsen's son Nate Olsen called me up to talk to me.. I was aghast as a Catholic when he told me that the stuff Doreen Virtue does that I feel is completely wrong to present as spiritual , they the Olsen family saw as acceptable. I asked him to explain Jesus dying on the cross if there is no hell as Virtue says.. I asked him to explain Jesus casting demons out of people if there are no demons as Doreen Virtue says.. I asked him how the Olsen family could lead people to the lies that can derail others & I was informed that the Olsen family do not see what Doreen Virtue does as lies.

I was told by Nate Olsen the son of Greg Olsen that I failed to appreciate that the angel divination that they are doing was okay for I failed to understand the founding of the Mormon church. Nate Olsen did not deny what Doreen Virtue has said in her video that Greg Olsen , his wife & his son were doing Doreen Virtue's angel divination in their home.

I am really confused as a former new age Catholic about what Mormons really believe.

I am aghast that a Mormon family is fine leading people to someone who will tell them that with angel therapy no more must they suffer from chronic or acute pain.http://shop.angeltherapy.com/living-pain-free-1

I am aghast they lead people to someone who gives out & leave out wrong suicide info & who has a history of anti-vaccine statements.. Doreen Virtue was once spiritual advisor of some sort to anti-vaccine quack Jenny McCarthy. Virtue encourages people to believe in reincarnation. She says there are no demons or Lucifer. She is a former Christian Science person now on her 5th marriage.

Hay House publishing is a new age mega house where they promote mediumship & other new age concepts as the self as god/part of source. Hay House author Esther Hicks is on record telling people that medicine is just a dog & pony show working on belief ( google her name & healing then look for the video of the guy in the body cast) . Louise Hay the founder of Hay House tells people they can cure themselves of any illness via the power of affirmations.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So former Mormons can you help me out here because I feel I might be able to trust you all to answer my questions without trying to convert me..

Do Mormons believe we have human souls?

Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

Do Mormons do candle magic or invoke magical beings or consult with the dead as Doreen Virtue & her son do?

Do Mormons believe that simony ( the attempt of buying or selling of a spiritual gift) is a sin?

Do Mormons usually do divination as a family?

How is Greg Olsen promoting that which can harm his fellow Christians if they follow it fully & that stands in opposition to the Jesus he paints? What do Mormons believe about Jesus?

Why do the Olsen family as Mormons not fear answering to God for the deceit they now twine to?

Is there no concept of being your brother's keeper & taking care not to harm others in Mormonism?

Can someone explain to me the foundation of Mormonism please.. I found some stuff online that seemed to indicate the founder of Mormonism engaged in divination himself. So I could see to some degree how Nate Olsen somehow thinks that divination is okay if your own prophet did it & encouraged it. But the Bible clearly prohibits divination so how do Mormons believe the Bible is the word of God while the founder of Mormonism violated it?

When I tried to get the LDS Mormon church to address what Greg Olsen was funneling people to in violation to the Bible & human decency , they kept offering to send me missionaries. I kept telling them if your church excuses the funneling to that which stands against Jesus & that derails lives & risks lives then I do not need to read the Book of Mormon to know it is not true.. Everyone keeps offering to send me missionaries. I have one person who keeps trying to convert me now..

How come they fail to see that I would be looking at their church's response to see if they live truth when I catch one of their own tied to deceit at the expense of others?

Why when I catch a world famous Mormon Artist funneling to the lies of the new age using the images of Jesus are they offering to send me missionaries & not offering to send them to Greg Olsen's home instead?

moonstone Wrote:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> So former Mormons can you help me out here
> because I feel I might be able to trust you all to
> answer my questions without trying to convert
> me..

> Do Mormons believe we have human souls?

Yes, and they believe we lived in a pre-existence before earth life.

> Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

Only in life after death and the resurrection.

> Do Mormons do candle magic or invoke magical
> beings or consult with the dead as Doreen Virtue &
> her son do?

It isn't part of Mormon religion to do that, but prayer is their conduit to heaven, and temple work in saving the souls that are of the deceased (in Mormon logic.)

> Do Mormons believe that simony ( the attempt of
> buying or selling of a spiritual gift) is a sin?

No, and neither do Catholics based on my observations. Art is all around us. If Greg Olsen wants to collaborate with this woman, it is entirely his business IMO and none of yours. You don't have to agree with his or her message at all. There are others who do and appreciate what she's selling even if others don't. Personally I wouldn't buy her stuff because I'm not into New Ageism. But I love Greg Olsen's art, and if he finds a wider audience to appeal to through her, then that is a good thing. His art is inspiring and uplifting.

> Do Mormons usually do divination as a family?

No, but Joseph Smith did for a living before turning himself into a self-appointed prophet, seer and revelator.

> How is Greg Olsen promoting that which can harm
> his fellow Christians if they follow it fully &
> that stands in opposition to the Jesus he paints?
> What do Mormons believe about Jesus?

In my opinion you are treading on thin ice here. Not because you won't get honest answers, because you will. But because those here who may disparage Greg Olsen don't appreciate his art or his values, and many here are atheists whether as ex-Mormons or never Mormons who frequent this site. What Greg believes is as personal to him and his family and his art is also a personal reflection of who he is as an artist. You don't have to like someone's art or condone their beliefs. But I'm not going to engage in Luciferian tactics to try and tear him down and demean him whether here or anywhere else.

He has better values than most Mormons you will meet anywhere. He makes his living as an artist of inspirational art and scripture. He may be reaching people through his art you will never understand or comprehend.

> Why do the Olsen family as Mormons not fear
> answering to God for the deceit they now twine
> to?

You are flat out wrong and mistaken to slander and defame any of the Olsen family as you are doing. If anyone is guilty of sin, yours is the GREATER BY FAR.

> Is there no concept of being your brother's keeper
> & taking care not to harm others in Mormonism?

Enough of your slander against the Olsen family. If you want to talk Mormonism, this is the place to do it. There are plenty of ex-Mormons around to answer your questions. The Olsen's are good people and fine people. You obviously do not know them at all, or are familiar with Greg's art to make your blanket assertions and libelous remarks.

You sound very misled to me about Greg Olsen and your perception of his art, or his making a living as an artist. Art can be whatever the artist, or beholder for that matter, wants it to be.

You obviously have an ax to grind against a New Ager and her decks of cards. Greg Olsen may not share her same beliefs, but he is not discriminating her on the basis of hers as to who he will do business with. She isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, and neither does he.

If they want to make their living selling cards and artwork, that is THEIR BUSINESS.

Passing moral judgments about their art &/or religious beliefs would seem to be YOURS. We are a group of ex-Mormons who no longer believe in Mormonism. That doesn't mean we deny others their right to believe in whatever they choose to.

Greg Olsen is perhaps one of the most beloved Latter Day Saints there is, and his art has universal appeal. He doesn't market his work as LDS per se, because it crosses boundaries and reaches a much wider audience than that.

Doreen Virtue sounds like a nut. I would not judge the Olsens based on her. Mormonism is crazy but no more than Catholicism. Most Mormons are kind people trying to do their best in the world.

I would say that it is no more likely for a practicing Mormon to also be into New Age practices than it is for a Catholic, Protestant, or anyone else. In my estimation it is somewhat less likely since Mormonism stresses conformity.

Mormons have been known to make business decisions that are not always in harmony with church teachings. Probably the most famous example of this is the availability of pornography in Marriott hotel properties.

The Mormon church often tends to overlook lessor transgressions in the case of members who are high tithe-payers (contributors.) If the Olsen family makes big financial contributions each year, then unless they really go off the deep end the church will likely turn a blind eye to their activities.

I love when one crazy religious person calls another religion crazy. Do some research into any religion and you will figure out your religion is just as crazy. You all believe in the tooth fairy.

Follow the money.

I worked in the creative department of a company that produced product lines featuring the work of both Olsen and Virtue...although not collaboratively.

I have met Doreen Virtue. I think she is like a general authority in a lot of ways. You meet her and can't figure out if she's nuts or just a con artist...or both.

During one visit to our company, she happen to see the work of another artist's project we had underway and began squealing uncontrollably. Why? She thought we had in our possession photos of real, live unicorns. Of course, what she saw were just well-done Photoshop designs by a new-age artist, but she acted...that that may be the key word...like she thought they were the real thing.

Before she left that day, Doreen Virtue gave me one of her books on angel healing that she thought might be helpful to my wife to address a health concern she was going through. Again, I was left wondering if that was a sincere act of kindness or just Virtue staying in character to perpetuate her con.

The only angel I care to meet is Clarence...the guy who went for drinks with Jimmy Stewart in "It's a Wonderful Life."

Clarence is my favorite Hollywood angel too. And the ringing of the bells when he finally earned his wings. :)

Once I was given several dreams as precognitive warnings of one of my uncles being a fugitive felon from the law, well in advance of his raiding the banks where I live. After my children and I identified him from Crime Stoppers months later after he'd looted my hometown of many thousands of moolah from our local area banks, I was given another dream of an angel who finally earned his [or her?] wings upstairs in the Great Divide.

There were bells ringing, as my [guardian?] angel sang to an earthly audience "I love you all."

More ex-Mormons actually embrace New Age wisdom, &/or become atheists. A lesser number of ex-Mormons remain Christian or bible believing, in seeking a different faith fellowship from Mormonism.

The appeal for ex-Mormons is they feel so deceived having been lied to and manipulated by the church corporation over a lifetime, they are far more skeptical and cynical than a disenfranchised congregant of another denomination might find themselves when leaving their religion.

When you've been brainwashed and indoctrinated into believing there is only one true church on the earth, and all the rest are false. Only to find out years later the one true church is the greatest harlot of them all, it tends to dissuade many into another religious persuasion and not any theological leaning other than total abstinence from any thing resembling established religion.

Greg Olsen seems able to bridge the gap between New Age, Mormonism, Christianity and other belief systems. He respects them all for what they have to offer and teach. I doubt he sees that as heretical, but as gaining wisdom based on his understanding and beliefs.

People tended to view Picasso as a heretic during his lifetime. And? Well, his genius made that possible for him to be labeled as such. He was eccentric, and when you're as gifted as he was what harm did he do other than leave a wealth of art as his legacy?

Greg's artwork may be different and unique, but he has his own genius and talents, and has made a huge impact on others lives in a good way. I don't see him or his values as heretical, just unique in a divinely appointed way.

We all have our gifts, callings, and talents to use as we will. Some are so fortunate to make their livelihood doing what they love to do. Greg is one such person who crafts his art for a livelihood and has done very well at it while inspiring quite possibly millions of people with his simple faith that he's built his business around. You mentioned selling your spiritual talents is a sin. I don't see his making his livelihood from painting a sin but a gift he brings to others from sharing his inspirational art through books, online, prints, etc.

If you don't like the artist you probably won't buy his artwork. There's enough variety to go around for all palettes, thank goodness. And as with any artist, there will always be critics.

Why are you so concerned about what Greg Olsen does with his art? I'd be more concerned about exposing the tarot card stuff as fraud. But even that is a waste of time. Because people will believe crazy stuff no matter what you say.

Honestly, I didn't read everything you wrote. And I'm not saying that to be disrespectful of you. But that's a LOT of effort you've put into researching him and what he should or shouldn't be doing as a Mormon.

Worry about yourself, instead of trying to control Greg Olsen and tattle telling to the LDS church about him. It's not your problem. If it wasn't his art on her cards, it'd be someone else's.

Greg Olsen is a good artist who understands and practices the true art of business.

There are many talented and gifted artists on this planet that will never be recognized or rewarded financially because they fail to be excellent SALESMEN.

Professional artists are first and foremost business people. Did I mention that excellent marketing and salesmanship go a long way towards success in the art market?

Olsen operates in a niche of christian/Mormon art. How or what he believes about it all is known only to him. What his clients do with his art is probably of little concern to him after the sale is made. Still... I'd follow the money.

Moonstone,

The problem here isn't Greg Olsen or tarot cards, it's the mormon church's greed for tithing.

After all, its not the principle of the thing--IT'S THE MONEY!

It smacks too much of the people who won't bake a cake for a gay couple. I can't imagine what would happen to the economy if businesses would only serve those who adhere to their own beliefs.

He's an artist and Doreen Virtue is obviously a client. It says nothing about what Greg Olsen might think of her beliefs or her business.

I won't try to convert you to anything. Your quest to understand religion might blossom right here, right now.

First, you are smart to ask exmormons about a faith left behind. This board is absolutely full of stories of Mormonism making no sense, and individual Mormons acting in ways that are very emotionally harmful to others.

You will find scathing remarks about Mormon leaders, doctrines, beliefs, and other Mormons who become public figures who abuse their authority. We call them out and rip them up.

You will occasionally see wonderful, sometimes heated, debates concerning belief / non-belief.

I personally don't care to whom an artist sells his or her iconography. I care a great deal about past and present iconoclasts, who believe it their god-given duty to control and destroy the artistic expessions of the faiths of others.

As I read your post, it was unclear whether you personally believe that icons carry spiritual power, or were only concerned for others who hold those beliefs. It was clear that you believe that your set of supernatural beliefs to be superior to other sets of supernatural beliefs.

You then attacked individuals, who are free to believe what they will, and sell those beliefs to whomever wishes to buy them.

The struggles to break free from a cult-like church are painful, usually costly in many ways, and requires leaving behind what is for many, the faith of their Fathers. So much is lost that the struggle becomes working through the deep grief and rage of the many ongoing losses.

A major part of the losses is in losing family and friends who are conditioned to believe that anyone who doesn't believe the way that they do, those who don't worship the same icons in the same way, are people to be shunned. Us, The Apostates.

Among the many grieving people here, you want to:

1) Deny others the religious freedom to their icons, because you don't hold the same beliefs;

2) Level a personal attack against an iconographer by name, even naming family members and his associations with others; and,

3) Seek to understand Mormonism not to free yourself or others from what we often refer to as a "cult," but to use that information as a weapon to attack an iconographer.

If you cannot understand why that would be offensive, I believe that you may not be open to being helped in any meaningful way. It is up to you to decide that in a free land, there are many faiths, all deserving of the same levels of freedom.

Many of us love active Mormons, and still live with them in our families and homes. We destest the daily harms they suffer due to Mormonism, but respect their rights to believe and worship as they will.

If you are in a faith that does not respect the freedoms of others, I would suggest that you start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

Feel free to come back and ask more questions, but also understand that no one is under obligation to support your desire to dominate others. It would also serve you well to study the history of religion, not just particular ones with which you disagree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions

You may find understanding in asking yourself, "Why do I hold the beliefs that I hold?" Many find it helpful to write out their answer, privately. I don't want an answer from you, but I think you may want to know the answer for yourself.


Signed,

A Respectful Atheist

The founder of the church, Joseph Smith, was big into folk magic. He used a "seer stone" in a hat to search for buried treasure (he never found any) and also translate an ancient religious record (which curiously has no evidence of being ancient and lots against).

Joseph started the Priesthood practiced today, with blessings and olive oil anointings and laying on of hands, as a mixture of protestant religious practice and occult "white magic".

So, I don't think Doreen Virtue is any more woo and snake oil than Joseph Smith was. Your "auto de fe" might be a little misplaced.

Had a good laugh -- the age old argument is still going on: "My God IS Better Than YOUR God! Nenernerner!!! moonstone's post is a great example!

The Right Fighters are out in force --!!!
My imaginary beliefs are right, and your imaginary beliefs are wrong. I know the truth, you are telling lies. Mine are not imaginary but yours are.
Will it ever stop? No. Of course, not!

The land of woo woo, magical thinking, snake oil salesmen and religion will continue to be huge money makers! No money, no church!

The fact is that we all have the same rights to our belief systems. Someone else's opinion has no bearing on what we choose to believe as our World View.

Respect other people's rights.

NABS

Most Christians would not have a clue who Greg Olsen is. They might be able to recognize one or two of his images from calendars and such but his name is generally meaningless to them. Since Mormonism is outside their experience so, too,is Olsen.

I've been surprised after leaving Mormonism to find out how many of the Sunday brochures use his artwork at the morg. If, however, you look online, you'll see that Greg gives his permission for any church to use his artwork for their worship services so long as it isn't being sold or otherwise being used in violation of copyright laws.

I wished you exmos here stop acting so rude and condescending towards the OP, as it appears he/she is a conscious follower of faith who probably is from a Mormon-free place. How on Earth does he/she know how the Morg runs?

As shown in the art of Greg Olsen and others, TSCC's Jesus is not the same Jesus non-Mormon Christians know. Some people take their faith in (the real) Jesus Christ seriously, and he/she was only politely asking a few questions. No need to display vitriol to someone who doesn't know much about the Mormon cult.


moonstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why when I catch a world famous Mormon Artist
> funneling to the lies of the new age using the
> images of Jesus are they offering to send me
> missionaries & not offering to send them to Greg
> Olsen's home instead?

That's what its all about. They really DO want to convert you. The Catholic Church that you believe strongly, is considered the "whore of the Earth" to them. Besides, unless you're a professional journalist, they're not going to bother answering your questions. Just join the TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST by entering the waters of baptism, pay 10% of your income to the church, and then they'll MAYBE answer your question about this Greg Olsen/clairvoyant connection. Maybe.....

The exmos here who are being rude to you are still suffering the after-effects of intense indoctrination; it ain't easy to shed it all in an instant.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are upset with a woman who speaks of angels and who uses face cards in ways that you think have the capacity to hurt others, specifically in suggesting that suicide threats should be ignored.

And because you want her to not do what she does, you think Greg Olsen should refuse to license his artwork for use on the cards she uses. You think Mr. Olsen has some moral obligation to refuse to sell or license his work to those whose faith he disapproves of.

The counter argument is that if one believes in JC and makes his art to promote Him (I have no idea if this is true of Mr. Olsen), one would license such art as widely as possible on the hope that someone will be brought to Him by seeing a picture of Him, (perhaps especially when they are engaged in tarot readings?).

I hope you wrote to the woman and provided her research that proved the statements you are concerned about were untrue. You are quite correct that experts do not recommend ignoring suicide threats but rather suggest you talk about it, and you try to get them to talk with a trained therapist.

But I'm not sure how you think any church has the power or authority to tell someone who they should or should not sell their work to. And Mormons do believe that God is responsible ultimately for all the good in the world, whether or not those who do it are Mormon church members. Mormon doctrine and history (though clearly not all Mormons and/or leaders) supports allowing all people to worship how, where and what they may (which seems to include the woman who you describe).

Yes, Mormons do believe they are responsible to help others and not hurt them. They also believe in religious freedom and in everyone's right to choose for themselves to live God's laws. Further, there is no one way to live Mormonism correctly. Some members might refuse to sell their product if they fear it will be used incorrectly. That will not make them better Mormons or more Mormon. It would just mean that is how they have worked out that issue in their journey, and maybe the specific inspiration they believe they have received from God.

Your post makes it clear you are distressed. You could do what one Mormon member got press for several years ago --- she bought up all the copies of a magazine, which contained material she didn't agree with, and threw them away. (I don't recall what it was.)