It's been an interesting week with some big ontological questions floated. Maybe we're living in The Matrix after all:

Neil deGrasse Tyson floated the idea that the universe is a simulation:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/227126-neil-degrasse-tyson-says-its-very-likely-the-universe-is-a-simulation

Princeton academics Paul Bloom and Adam Bear published findings that free well may well be an illusion created by our brains:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/free-will-could-all-be-an-illusion-scientists-suggest-after-study-that-shows-choice-could-just-be-a7008181.html

First, the study reported in the independent.co.uk strikes me as testing memory more than is free will.

Philosophically, anthropologically, and sociologically oriented psychology studies are well known to reflect their designers' preconceptions (dare I call them "prejudices"?), and are subject to various interpretations and replicability problems.

I regard them as valid as those "studies" which declare that "Candidate X" or "Politician Y" has been studied by psychologists and determined to be mentally unbalanced/unfit to hold office/some kind of psychopath. This being an election year, you can count on at least a few of them.

As Isaac Bashevis Singer said:

"We MUST believe in free will! We have no choice!"

IN Bfor ~ RfM is a simulation and an illusion

I have long thought that free will is an illusion, much like a sunset is an illusion. Even though most of the human race is well aware that a sunset is really us standing on a spinning planet, where we are on the small portion of the planet that is spinning into its own shadow, our mental image is that the sun is setting, not that we are spinning into the earth's shadow.

True, behavior is unpredictable is fine detail, though it is very predictable in an aggregate statistical sense. The behavior of smoke particles in a room is also unpredictable in fine detail. That doesn't mean they have free will. Unpredictability and free will are not the same thing.

There is a certain group of people who go totally apes**t over a claim that no free will exists, because then in their worldview, there is no holding people accountable for what they do, and that is simply unacceptable in their worldview.

Society can still structure itself to encourage or discourage certain behaviors, without appeals to free will. Lining an irrigation ditch with concrete encourages water not to seep into the ground, but free will has nothing to do with it.

Free will may be a fiction, but it may well be a useful fiction.

every time I here a "free will" argument coming on I know it's time to put on the waders because I know the B.S. is going to get deep.

I watched the discussion with Tyson. I had heard about the concept that we're all living in a simulation before and thought it was pretty wacky. Tyson got my curiosity up so I listed to his arguments and did some research and now I think it's definitely within the realm of possible.

I don't think I would go so far as to say it's "probable" at this time, but I don't think it's as hare-brained as I first thought. If it's true, it might explain quantum weirdness and the speed of light.

What affect does it have on me, an Atheistic leaning Agnostic? Other than shifting me more towards Agnosticism, very little. You're born, you live you die. That's probably it, but who knows?

As for free will, I haven't given it much thought. I feel like I have free will. If we are in a simulation, I expect if we had consciousness, we would have free will, otherwise what would be the point of the simulation?

"Illusion is free will's attempt to accomplish something by doing as little as possible."
-- Judic West, 'The Epic Life of a Loser', pg. 305

But I couldn't find it with google search.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 04:15PM by donbagley.

Don, I think the Dawg, is pulling your tail. In once of his earlier posts, he referred to Judic West as the archbishop of Pacoima! I think we've been the victim of one very smart golfer! The archbishop's Boner.

Yeah, but I fall for it ever time!

"There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

Donald Rumsfeld, 12 February 2002

send that guy on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney

Most neuroscientists and meta-philosophers say no, we don't have free will. Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and others say no free will. There's many youtube talks and TED talks about this. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=philosopher+we+don%27t+have+free+will



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 04:50PM by dydimus.

"There is no Free Willy. The whole thing was just a made up movie. But people still believe in Free Willy and nothing I say or do makes any difference!"
--Judic West, author of "Free Willy for Everyone"

Paul Bloom and Adam Bear are psychology professors at Yale University, not Princeton. I took Bloom's Coursera course on "The Moralities of Everyday Life" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUd72Dmd_A) and his intro psych course on Open Yale Courses (http://oyc.yale.edu/psychology/psyc-110).

When I was in high school I thought about the Mormon concept of
"Free Agency" as it applied to reward or punishment in the
afterlife. The more I thought about it the less sense it made.

Later I applied the same line of thinking to the whole concept
of "Free Will." Again, the more I think about it the less sense
the whole concept makes.

The Subject sounds like a Max Planck quote. Here's another site to read up

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will

This goes along with the theory that we're holograms and so is the Universe. If we are living in a 3D matrix not of our choosing, how does that invoke free will?

If I get called on in heaven for the "life review," what will it tell me I don't already know? Did I have control over this or that, or whatever, to effect a different outcome? And why didn't my life work out the way it was predicated to if based on another's will for me?

If I don't live my life according to my free will, whose will is it anyway? Is everything arranged no matter what we like to believe, that some things are going to happen no matter what we try to do to change the course of history?

Are we bound by a script written for us rather than by us? Is it in our DNA strands? Science is now able to ascertain life sequencing and memory sourcing into our DNA. We may have little control over nothing at all, contrary to popular belief.

One thing we're seeing is continuous progress in our ability to simulate our reality with higher and higher resolution recordings and playback. Gaming resolution is increasing as well, which is to say our fantasies are looking more and more realistic over time. Will we hit a dead end at some point, or will we someday get to an overwhelmingly realistic and tactile virtual reality? Will it become so large that people will be born into it, live and die in it?

What if all those things already happened, and we're in a virtual super-reality right now? If so, I say we should just shrug it off and keep on living the rich and interesting lives we have within it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2016 10:01PM by donbagley.

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