http://universe.byu.edu/2016/04/29/mormons-lds-not-strangers-to-a-crisis-of-faith/

Every now and then I poke my head into BYU's student newspaper to get a chuckle. This time around, I ran across something that made me just shake my head.

The author espouses the ideas you normally find with science-deniers. Logic and evidence are simply one tool that can help you find "truth," but there are several non-scientific methods that are more reliable. I wasn't too surprised to find "revelation" as one method, but I honestly was rather surprised to find "utilitarianism" listed. It was reminiscent of, "Some things that are true are not very useful." Has the church been doubling-down on that line of thinking?

The last sentence in the article doesn't even attempt to invite evidence-based thinking and reason to the table:

"We are not solely or even largely dependent on the historical record to know if Joseph was his prophet and if this restored gospel and church are true."

"Facts be damned" appears to be the best response they can give to the historical record.

"When facts are damning, damn the facts; full speed ahead, brothers and sisters!"
-- Judic West, Stake President, Severe Penis Stake, Brushcutt, Idaho

'Severe Penis Stake?'

Bushman did make one excellent point.

"These people [skeptics] are as adamant and dogmatic as any dogmatic Mormon.”

I would go farther and say that Mormons are generally more dogmatic than your average mormon skeptic, but I've certainly encountered people, including people here on this site (not very many), who's vitriol and hatred for mormonism rises to the level of hate speech and is absolutely counterproductive.

Of course I've met many more mormons whose vitriol and hatred for...anyone who isn't white and protestant made there opinions about them counterproductive. Well, neither excuses the other.

Well my grandfather--who informally left the church after an LDS mission in the 1920's--was fond of an "Old Indian saying" that he used to repeat:

"Never condemn a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins."

Or woman...

I suggest you take that advice to heart and realize your moniker betrays your bias and limited perspective; the LDS Church in Utah is very different than the one elsewhere, and your criticism of others' feelings amounts to effectively condoning the ecclesiastical--and political excesses--we who live in the belly of the beast know all too well.

I recall a conversation I once had with one of the ADMIN's of this site; he said point blank, "The LDS Church is evil."

This was years ago, and I've come around to believing his views are largely accurate in spite of my known distaste for black-and-white thinking and genuine affection for many Mormons. I was much more moderate in my views a few years ago.

Anyway, as the Wise Ol' Cabbie once said, you're welcome to kiss the @$$ that's farting in your face, but some of us have learned better.

I don't really give a shit what your grandfather said, cabbie. For the record, I've spent years in Salt Lake, and am very familiar with what it's like to live under the yoke of the church in the Morridor, even if I live in the Midwest now.

I wouldn't judge how someone chose to express their feelings about the church, especially if they've had an abusive experience within the church or at the hands of a member, or a bishop, etc., my point, I think my point was pretty clear. I didn't mean 'dogmatic' in the literal sense, so maybe that was the wrong word, because I don't think exmormons are dogmatic about defending the truth, but they can certainly be as tenacious as any mormon can be about defending their religion, and as I allluded to, since they take that tenacity to the extreme, they rely on emotional testimony, half-truths, lies, confirmation bias, and straw-men to defend their positions. Those who want to spread the truth about the church- like those on this board- have the truth on their side, or at the very least, the decision not to base their beliefs arbitrarily on a 'burning in their bosom'. Indigestion, or a spiritual witness from God? You be the judge.

My point is I have seen people make grand sweeping generalizations about mormons, and say offensive things. I'm sure I've been one of those people, and I'm sure I will be again, but I can try not to be in the future. I'm sure from some people's perspective, what I have to say about the church sounds hateful, and what other people have to say about the church sounds hateful, too. It does not good to lie or exaggerate about the church, especially since the history of the church is chock-full of so many awful things already.

I can always do better, and try and be more measure and collected about TSCC- which is an extremely personal thing to me, and probably to everyone here, and I'm in recovery from it. I guess that's my point.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 08:17PM by Susan I/S.

midwestanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Severe Penis Stake?'
>
> Bushman did make one excellent point.
>
> "These people are as adamant and dogmatic as any
> dogmatic Mormon.”
>
> I would go farther and say that Mormons are
> generally more dogmatic than your average mormon
> skeptic, but I've certainly encountered people,
> including people here on this site (not very
> many), who's vitriol and hatred for mormonism
> rises to the level of hate speech and is
> absolutely counterproductive.

No, Bushman's "excellent point" ignores that historical fact is not the dogma of faith. Seeking truth, critisizing people who actively harm others, is not "dogma."

The Bushman arguments quoted in the article are full of obvious fallacy, so numerous and blatant to justify a response here.

The article's point is that facts should not be accepted to counter Mormon dogma.

I guess you also missed that this site is geared toward the healing of those who have left, not "rescuing" those who are still in. That the harmed, those who are still suffering ongoing harm (most exmos) and those who watch their trapped family members currently being harmed, are full of rage and anger is predictable and to be expected.

Fighting against the evils of Mormon dogma is a dirty job, and the heroic exmos who sacrifice so much for freedom should not be made to suffer the additional insult of being called "dirty," as they wash the filth of Mormonism from their lives.

Hate speech? No. It's fighting hate speech, specifically, yours.

I didn't mean dogma like that. People here are just as committed to exposing the lies of the church as apologists are to defending the church. That is what I meant. And again, what I alluded to, is that since Mormons think they have the 'spirit' on their side, they tend to be much more dogmatic about it, and ignore facts and the truth. To clarify, I did not think the article was a good article, but I did think that quote from bushman had a good point.


I'm completely familiar with the mission and goals of the site, having been aware of it for over 10 years, and a poster off and on for 2, thanks. I didn't call anyone dirty, nor was anything I said 'hate speech.'

As I said above in response to Cabbie, I have seen-not often, and it usually get quashed or corrected- people exaggerate, lie, or make generalizations about the church that are counterproductive to the objective of this board- recovering from Mormonism. Hell, the history of the church is full of so many awful things, It's far from necessary to have lie about any of them to make the church look bad, they do a good enough job of that on their own.

I've been angry at the church, and I still am, and I've said really angry shit about it, as I'm sure most of the posters here, but I can see how from an outsiders perspective, those things look hateful.

I think this is the best example I can think of, but there are others:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1806063

In short, the thread is about someone who wants to get their wife out of Mormonism, which is fine, I totally get that, I wish my whole family would leave mormonism. A poster recommends this:

"Threaten to leave and take the children if she doesn't read the CES letter and watch the link. If she is even remotely smart, those two will do it. She will resign. Anyone who doesn't after that deserves to lose her kids.

If you are somewhere other than in the Morridor, you can tell the custody judge that she is forcing the kids to be in a CULT that worships a child molester. You can't let your children be harmed by this insane EVIL CULT."

I know this is one poster, on one thread, and again, I do not think this is indicative of the average poster on RfM. But I do see it from time to time. Hell, people like Ed Decker completely undermine the mission of airing the churches dirt laundry by mixing it up with nonsense, half-truths, and lies.

This is all I meant. I am not an apologist. I do not agree with the article. I would never presume to judge how someone feels about the church, especially if they've been abused or taken advantage of in some way by the church or someone in the church, just like I hope someone would not presume to judge me because I still respect a great many people who are TBMS, including my parents, my extended family, and many friends and mentors.

That's all I really have to say about this. I am not attempting to denigrate anyone specifically or generally. We can always do better, me included. For the record, I think this is a great message board, with a lot of smart people. I've learned a ton of stuff I never would have otherwise, and it's sure as hell more productive than going to church or being a mormon ever was.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 05:21PM by midwestanon.

It's more than Joseph Smith's "extravagant assertions" as Bushman puts it. It's his demonstrably poor character (and that of Brigham Young as well.) I have higher standards than to follow a serial adulterer, a con artist, a liar, and a man who authorized the destruction of a printing press solely because it exposed his sexual escapades.

Bushman has made a career out of putting lipstick on a pig, and he now calls out those who see exactly what he is up to.

Bushman also needs to ask himself why, if the church is so good and so true, it doesn't publish its financials unless forced to do so by each country's government. What is it hiding?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 09:33AM by summer.

"These people [skeptics] are as adamant and dogmatic as any dogmatic Mormon.”

Mebbe so, but we're more righter than they are.

Exactly, randy.

The facts have nothing to do with how adamant and dogmatic the person discussing the facts might be.


People who select facts by cult of personality are doomed...well, to be religious for example.

Comparing the Exmo tendency to point out facts, ask for proof and evidence, and relate their own experiences in the church to Mormons expecting fact and reason to be ignored in deference to their faith and "because I said so stance" is ridiculous.

I was very live and let live with the Mormon church for decades, and then I got a look at the underbelly. I cannot in good conscience be "live and let live" with an organization that is destroying families and hurting our gay kids at such an alarming rate.


What your post does is just accuse the victim and assign them a significant portion of the blame. SWK would be proud and Oaks would cheer you on.

Actually, I agree with you Midwestanon. But I see that as okay IN THIS PLACE because this is a RECOVERY from Mormonism site, so you might expect there to be highly-charged emotional responses as people work things out, as they separate themselves from difficult, sad, and even traumatizing situations related to their LDS church experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2016 05:26PM by seekyr.

I agree with you as well. I've said extremely emotionally charged things about the church, and especially about people like SWK, or BKP, or McConkie, people I can't fucking stand. I don't judge them for saying what they have to say in a safe space like this forum. Likewise, I shouldn't be judged for having my opinion on the matter, because, as I said above, there are plenty of Mormons I continue to hold in high regard, regardless of there slavish devotion to the church (because, regardless of my admiration for them, there is no doubt that they are completely and totally wrapped up in the church, emotionally and financially.)

The biggest lie of religion, and perhaps of all time is that faith is a way to find truth.

Bingo.

They have their story. They use faith to make it true.They Cherry pick from everything else to support the preconceived conclusion held by faith.

"The biggest lie of religion, and perhaps of all time is that faith is a way to find truth."

"Faith is believing in things you know ain't true."---Mark Twain

In a way that statement is correct. Mormonism really isn't dependent on the historical record since they have created their own mythical (i.e. "faith promoting") history instead.

"And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true." (Alma 32:21)

If, as this scripture implies, we're supposed to hope for things that are not seen and put that attainable-by-only-the-very-righteous luxury of perfect knowledge on layaway for a more righteous day, how can we possibly tell whether the things we're hoping for are true? We're supposed to hope for only those things which are true, yet it's impossible to distinguish truth from untruth when your only tool is hope. It's a double bind, but hey, we're no strangers to double binds, right? Adam and Eve and the fruit they were/weren't supposed to eat come to mind.

When "knowing truth" is all about feelings (especially those of priesthood leaders), then absolutely, facts be damned; reason be damned; thinking be damned. In fact, evidence-that-Church-leaders-break-their-own-rules be damned! This is nothing new; this is what I was taught in BYU religion courses in the 1980s. Feelings trump all else, as long as those feelings uphold the Church. Funny how TBMs are fully capable of recognizing groupthink mentality when they're shaking their heads at cults like Warren Jeffs', but it's invisible to them within their own Church history (from which Jeffs was molded) and their current institution.

The thing that religious faith finds is credulity. It's circular.

Attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes (among many):

“If you’re weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you’re weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts. If you’re weak on both, pound the table.”

From the cited article in the OP:

"BYU church history professor Michael Goodman said there are three ways of finding knowledge.

The first is through reason, which includes logic and historical context. (I hope it also includes experience and evidence...)

The second is through utilitarianism, or which choice leads to the greater 'good.' (Guess who defines 'Greater Good.')

And third is through revelation, or knowledge beyond the mortal ability to receive here on Earth." (Guess who is in charge of receiving the revelation?)


Only in a make believe cult world can the later two 'methods' be seriously offered for consideration. Only when you NEED beliefs to reach the level of fact would you have to resort to the later two alleged methodologies.

so what else is new?

Well of course. There is no historical record for their foundation.

+ about a Zillion.

Back in the old days they used to LOVE the historical record.
Back then the historical record "proved" Mormonism was true.
It's only now that the real historical record is uncovered that
the historical record doesn't count any more.

Mormonism has morphed from a straight-forward, two-fisted,
practical religion to a mystical mystery religion where facts
don't matter and reality is what they tell you it is.

Well, truer words were never spoken for the cult. The only thing the cult is DEPENDENT on are what they say they are dependent on at any CURRENT MOMENT IN TIME which can change at any future moment in time.

The cult's myth is ever changing.

Are you wanting Joey to have a vision with one or two or three heavenly visitors? Well, just wait and you will most likely get your wish.