OK, I'm curious (AND NO PLEASE DON'T START A DEBATE WITH THIS). As a Morgbot the hardest thing I had to let go was the Plan of Salvation. The fact that everyone would have the chance to hear and then accept/reject the gospel. Now I want to know how NORMAL Christians view what will happen to the people who never got to hear about Jesus or truly have the chance to accept/reject him. I am not Christian, nor do I have any intention of converting to Christianity, but it was just something I was thinking about the other day. Thanks.

Ziller’s Bible sez that Jeezus died for the whole world.

1st John 2: 2 – “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

And that we are all going to be surprised at who is “saved” and who is not.

Luke 13: 29 – “And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.”

Ziller

I don't have the chapter and verse, but I understood from somewhere that Paul had said that those who never had the opportunity to convert to Christianity would be judged on the life they led without knowing Christ, or perhaps it was that they were judged on whether or not they would have become Christians if they had had the opportunity.

Various Christian groups have believed various different things over time. The Universalist who eventually united with the Unitarians believed that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to save all people during all times regardless of whether they believed or not (thus their name - Universalist). The Cathars believed you had to be inducted into a special order (referred to as "perfects") in order to be guaranteed to be saved. They also believed that if a perfect sinned and could no longer be considered a perfect, not only did they lose their standing but also anyone else they ever had initiated to become a perfect. It was like a MLM arrangement where a person's "downline" was dependent on the top man not to fall into sin. If he did, each and every one of those initiated down the line had to find a new perfect to re-initiate them.

There is no direct answer in the Bible, so you have to trust that God in his perfect love, grace, and justice will give people what they deserve. Here's a line of reasoning I think about on this topic might. As a Mormon, you have the answer, if you don't get people the gospel, they will have a second chance in spirit prison to hear the gospel preached. As a Christian, I don't know of a direct or really satisfying answer. So, this means there is urgency to spread the gospel and to get people to adhere to the good news. To me, this could be the very reason why God didn't inspire Biblical writers to write a direct answer. For this reason, its not a surprise I see many Christian street preachers, mission trips, cult ministries, and many evangelical programs based in Christian denominations. But, in Mormonism, while young men and older couples serve missions, there isn't the urgency. And why should there be? If Elder Johnson doesn't meet Mrs. Swanson in the mission field, what difference does it make, he can teach her in the Spirit Prison. As a Christian, I think this puts even more importance on Jesus. If people have a second chance after death, it definitely denigrates the role and purpose of Jesus. Oh, I think the book of Romans in the Bible talks about people having the law written on their heart, so it seems as if no one gets a free ride and you will be judged according to your knowledge.

It seems to me that there are many different views on this depending on the sect. What heaven or hell is and who goes where seems to depend on what sect or even what person you talk to. Never mind the concept of purgatory. The plan of salvation also seems to vary greatly depending on the sect you are looking at.

At least that is my observation.

this is from memory, so bear with me, when jesus was crucified on calvary hill there were 2 others also crucified with him, the good thief and the bad thief, the bad thief mocked jesus saying in effect if you are the lord then save yourself, the good thief then rebukes the bad thief saying in effect hey we deserve our punishment for the life we led, this man [jesus] has done no wrong, the good thief then turns to jesus and says "remember me when you come into your kingdom" jesus reply to the good thief "truly i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" also see john 3:15- whoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life. mormons believe in works for salvation, christians believe in the saving grace of jesus christ, regardless of denomination

individuals who have never been given the chance to accept the "grace" of Jesus.

the gospel, they would not be held responsible for accepting/rejecting it.
I guess that's why missionaries are so important. They make sure everyone gets the chance to go to hell. ;-P

How does that work?

Christian dogma is that JC goes to the underworld while he's 'dead' then he gets reserected, then he haunts people for about 40 days, and only after all that does he go to heaven.

I wonder why most Christians don't seem to notice this stuff.

I was wondering about that too. Never noticed it before.

The quote is "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise".

Only he wasn't in paradise that day according to the rest of the stories. So that makes no sense.

Instead of:
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It should say:
Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In other words I am telling you right now that you will be in paradise.

I guess all of the translators, in each of their languages got the sense of the verse wrong even though the verb tense of the original Greek would make it clear.

Where do Apologists come up with this carp?

The bible provides an incoherent set of ideas about what happens after death. There's really no clear narrative (some thing along the lines of the Egyptian Book of the Dead) and the bits and pieces that are there simply don't agree.

I finally had the guts to ask a presbyterian at work what the answer is. He answered, "that answer was never given in the bible, so we really don't know". I thought that was a very courageous statement. "we don't know". I think it's a fair answer. Much more fair than trying to twist scripture to say what you want it to say.

Thanks again

No one said this, so I'll throw in the Catholic solution. It's not purgatory, it's Baptism of Desire. If you HAD heard the gospel and WOULD have accepted it, you get a pass. You see, God being all-knowing would know that.

Of course that's all made up by those with the grand pooh-bah authority to say what's what even when the truth is, "no one knows."

DW's Nazarene family believed that unless you were baptized, you burned in hell forever. Yes, even those who never heard the word. That's why they took missionary work in China etc. so very seriously.

My Jesus loves everybody unconditionally and sends nobody to burn in hell (because there is no hell). If we screw up, well, we get to come baaaaack and try again.

...from the Book of Sorcha. ;-)

I believe that a loving God would not penalize anyone who did not hear the Word. My pastor has done sermons on this topic with verses etc. so there is some message of those who were LOST but they will be allowed the blessings we all wish for us in the afterlife.

this is the true tragedy of mormonism. it turns some people into athiest and or occultist, when they at last see the light

It would be nice, since the atheists on the board, myself included, have left threads like these alone, that you don't say stupid things like that. It's quite offensive.

yeah tiff's right LS, wtf? Self-righteous much?

tell that to st. peter when you reach the pearly gates [which you will] or better yet, tell him you are a wiccan or white witch or even better, tell him you are a white and delightsome witch, you traded one cult for another

I'm a different sort of Christian then, because I see no conflict with my path (following Christ as I believe him to be: all-loving and inclusive, never mind what that misogynist Paul says) and other people following other paths.

As forestpal says, we're all learning and growing and evolving. I believe that's the whole point of this life.

"Do good. Harm none. Love your neighbor as yourself." What's wrong with there being different paths to help others and ourselves? What's wrong with discovering one's authentic spirituality in whatever path we choose?

None of us has the right to criticize anyone who's searching, IMO.

LS, fyfo

Whatever belief we hold in our heart right now--though it may change tomorrow--is our salvation, today.

Many of us are trying on various ideas and religions for size, so bear with us.

The only true answer is "NOBODY KNOWS." No one has ever died and gone through Judgment Day, and returned to tell us about it.

True "Christians" believe in the Atonement of Christ. Mormons believe in obedience.

Heidi GOWTR, your excellent question touches on a great fundamental difference between cultic Mormonism and Christianity.

Some are of the idea that love is of God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God (I John 4:7-8), and that we are to love one another. Those who never know Jesus' name personally, know of love through nature, most sense there is a God but may call him a different name. It may be choices one makes and the intent of heart. So in essence someone can know or have a relationship with God but have a different name for him. Some believe its a Spirit you have within your being or don't have; that it's there, or not there. In my opinion God doesn't define us how we define ourselves. He doesn't say "you are Mormon", "you are Catholic". He does not see us how we define ourselves. I call myself a Christian person because I like to think I follow the teachings of Christ, but most Christians probably disagree with my take on it.

P.S. Purely by grace and nothing you can do to be worthy of it.

@ tiff: so , because my opinion differs from yours, it is automatically "stupid" and "offensive" you don't even see the hypocrisy of your position, then again how could you, you're still a morgbot

no LS, your words are not stupid and offensive because they differ from tiff's. They are stupid and offensive because you are stating your beliefs as if they are somehow eternally true for all of us. This is your belief, and you are entitled to it. But you are not entitled to say that tiff's (or anyone's) life or beliefs are somehow a "tragedy" because she is different from you, or is not sheltered eternally by your "Jesus" dood.

Self-righteous much?

Check out what these former Mormons who have converted to Christianity say about it: http://www.youtube.com/user/adamsroad6#p/f/1/1B6fyDu0PLs
These five guys have formed a band called Adam's Road.

Hello, are you sure you are interpreting your wife's Nazarene parents correctly? Salvation based on baptism is certainly not a Nazarene belief. Nazarene's do teach that baptism should follow the "born again" experience but is the outward sign of what has already been performed in the heart of the believer....but not being baptised would not determine a person's eternal destiny.