Amyjo had the last post, so I'm addressing it here.

I certainly do own my decision. My decision was tempered by my respect and love for my TBM wife. Since the church is all nonsense anyway, why should it matter to me if I have to have opportunities to poke at the bear, um, er undergo a kangaroo, I mean, sit through, well, speak up at a High Council Court, I mean "Court of Love"?

And Amyjo, I do appreciate your concern but this is nothing to me. I've been there and done it before. This will be my second (and final) strike.

I say "final" not because the church won't accept me back in if I "repent" but because **I'm** not coming back.

Period.

I don't know why but I love the idea of making them ex me. Sure I could send in my resignation and "make it my choice" but I'd rather choose to go down in one huge hydrogen bomb... They made my life hell, I'll fuck them over any chance I get until they ex me. It would be an honor mark to me.

Reporter: "so Mr presidential candidate buriedego.. In an in-depth background search we see the mormon church excommunicated you? How could your voters be confident in you after that?"

Me: "fuck yeah I was. They couldn't handle my hot shit anymore and I was sick of letting a cult lead my life so I blasted them till they couldn't take it anymore. I'd say that's pretty damn brave and trustworthy."

so nice that we have the choice to go away quietly, or poke the bear and make it roar!

I do think your wife's attitude is interesting. If you had resigned, it might have been quiet and more personal, one would think less of a spectacle (for lack of a better word).

Instead, your post on Facebook was essentially a resignation letter, you just didn't send it in. You stated publicly that you had studied your way out of your belief using their own documentation. This of course gets the local bishopric all in a tizzy and they setup an kangaroo court to get you excommunicated.

If she had just let you resign, it would have been quieter, one would hope with less gossip... Now, I'm assuming, that she'll be the center of the ward as the "wife of the apostate!" Sure, she might have had similar gossip, but one would think this is worse as you'll be labeled as a horrible anti-mormon rather than someone who just left the church.

Even if you had resigned then posted on Facebook as an explanation for leaving, you would have already left and wouldn't have the mark of excommunication on you (which impact her more than you at this point).

But, if that works for her, I guess that's the route you take... Who knows, maybe she'll get tired of the whispers and sad knowing looks and being labeled the apostate's wife and start looking at the church more objectively.

There's a lot to my wife's history, maybe like most of us. It gets complicated at times, too.

She means well. She just doesn't see things like you do, of course, because she has her own perspective.

I'm easygoing and don't mind at all that I'm going through what others might fear. That's just me. And her. And it works for us.

I get that, I think if things had been a little bit different (if my wife had stayed a TBM and hadn't left before me, for example) I could have been in a similar situation.

Glad it's working for you! Sounds like an interesting ride...

I love that you can record the conversations in your state. I hope the sound quality is good and it can be posted online. I look forward to hearing some good bits.

I believe you are using your real name on this site and others correct? I'd expect them to use the "Associated with known apostates" as the reason for the ex not only the facebook post as part of the argument.

I personally think it will just be a character assassination and a quick dismissal.

Make sure to let them know they upped the ante, thus provoking yet more historically accurate FB posts.

If your experience is typical, speaking truth to power will be like talking to a wall so you'll be walking on egg shells. The best you can do is return and report.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2016 05:20PM by bradley.

Congratulations on being the first mormon excommunicated via the new mime procedure.

ETA: I received an update on this revelation: hand puppets and flash cards are involved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2016 05:48PM by elderolddog.

In fact, this whole thread made me smile.

But I'm glad to be more "open" now.

So what happened? I've been checking this thread obsessively!

See link below for details so far:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1788380,1788380#msg-1788380

I'm not a stenographer and even less of a typist. Yeah, a programmer/database administrator for 34 years but still can't type in the preferred manner (I obviously CAN type, though!). But I attempted to transcribe a portion of my 30 minute meeting with my Stake President. Here's my poor attempt:

SP: Well, tell ya what I wanna do, Bruce. The last time I met with you, you did most of the talking with {A-70} and then you wrote the letter.

Me: Um hmm.

SP: I've also been on your web site (Editor: FB, obviously) and read your, your blurb there. Basically, the purpose of this meeting, Bishop's already talked to you.

Me: Um hmm.

SP: I don't want to talk about anything other than a specific part of the content.Okay?

Me: Sure.

SP: You are, you are a member.

Me: Um hmm.

SP: You are an endowed member. Covenants that you've made. Whether you want to keep them or not that's, that's up to you but you still are a member. And even in your own writings you clearly state that one of the foundational, um, uh, parts of the Gospel is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon...

Me: Um hmm.

SP: They are principles...

Me: Um-kay.

SP: ...in that, um, for somebody that's a member of the Church to say categorically, and I'm quoting you, that they are not a true prophet and it's not a true book, is a apostate statement. Clearly. Okay? End of story and just like you said at the beginning of your document that as you quoted prophets, these are foundational. Okay? {unintelligible} And if it's true that if Joseph isn't a prophet then there's a lot {unintelligible}. So tonight I'm basically here as your Stake President, and I asked your Bishop to meet with you to let you know that, that the statement that's on the web site is public and is an apostate statement and does cross the line. And I'm going to ask you to remove it and if not then, then I have no recourse than to hold a disciplinary council, which you've had before, and lost your membership years ago, not for the same reason. Um, that's, that's really what this meeting's about, right? I don't need to discuss why you think Joseph is or isn't, okay...

Me: No, but...

SP: I don't want to go there.

Me: But surrounding that statement, all I was doing was, uh, declaring my status at the moment and where I am now. That that doesn't mean that's where I'm going to be...

SP: understand that but...

Me: ...in the future. And, and, uh I think that the problem is, is probably with the word "fraud" but it's not mmmm...I borrowed it. Um, y-you probably read some of the other statements that I put in there where, where, uh, other leaders including Presidents of the Church have actually made a binary proposition that if everything that Joseph said is true, it's the greatest thing to mankind. If it's false, false it's the biggest fraud perpetrated on the human race! And that's the word that they used!

SP: Yes but they're not making that statement. They would categorically say that he is a true prophet.

Me: And they followed it up with that. Yes.

SP: And I would do the same, okay? You have chosen to take the arm of flesh, whether you like that word or not, it is true, in my book, because you will not receive anything from the spirit or from heaven as true. You only are taking what is from documents that men have created that are not scripture and uh, that p-prove J-Joseph Smith's not true. Well, uh, let me assure you that the fact of the matter is that we're facing is that, uh, you have publicly taught that Joseph Smith is not a prophet, because that's the piece that you've concluded and the Book of Mormon's not true and that is apostate {unintelligible}.

Me: But I haven't taught.

SP: Yes you have.

Me: No. I declared a statement of, of, I made a statement declaring my status {background protest by SP} and then subsequent to that I, I said if you wish to learn some of the things that I have learned, you would have to do your own homework, I'm not going to teach it. {background protest by SP "I read that. I read that"} And and I'm not going to teach it and I haven't been teaching it!

SP: Yes you have! You have taught that Joseph Smith is a fraud.

Me: No, I declared that that is my {background interruption by SP} opinion at the time.

SP (continuing from background interruption): That is still your teaching and the answer is that you can't be a member of the Church any longer.

Me: Well, we're kind of haggling on semantics and I disagree.

SP: Well, you can disagree but y-you can't disagree with what I'm going to say. And..and..

Me: Sure. Sure, sure.

SP: So, I am telling you, again, talked to {A-70}, he's in line with me, and it is. So that, that, and, and, now we have a choice to make. You can remove it and not, not put it back up and that you cannot be teaching to others that Joseph is a fraud. That's where we get. And, and or the Book of Mormon is false because you are a member. And to have somebody teach that Joseph Smith is not a prophet and to; that's saying it, that's teaching it, whether you like it or not, it's true; and that the Book of Mormon is, is a false book is apostate statements, and to say that publicly is teaching people that it's not true.

Me: Hmmm, I would still disagree. {interruption attempt} The whole purpose {interruption attempts continue} of that I, I stated clearly in, in, in, in that, uh, post.

SP (talking over me): So Bruce, you have two choices. I'm not changing my stance. {I am interrupting this time}. I've thought it out. I'm not here to argue.

Me: And I can't, honestly, change mine either because my purpose was to inform, uh, people that, rather than have rumor go out, I wanted to have things straight from the horse's mouth, as to where I was at the time. {Me talking over SP} And, and so it's; I wasn't teaching, I was declaring where I stood at the moment.

{Quick back and forth arguing about teaching/not teaching}

Me: I don't give any, I don't give any reasons why I think that, I don't, I don't...

SP: You don't have to. A lot of people accept things a...as is. As, as, as a maestro you could say...

Me: I told them they shouldn't. I told them they shouldn't. They should do their own...

SP: Doesn't matter. You stated a statement of fact from your standpoint.

Me (interrupting): Well, that's fine. I understand your, your standpoint and, and I think you probably now understand mine.

SP: Sure.

Me: I, I, I think it would be disingenuous to take it out because {interruption attempt} it is a, a true statement of where I stood so they were aware, because I do have friends and family that uh; I told my my immediate family by letter, personally, and uh, my in-laws found out through others. Um, but we've been conversing about it a little bit, not much. Um. But there's still large family, large family and so I wanted; and most of the friends that I have are family, the reason I, I used Facebook is because I've got kids scattered from Texas to Alaska and uh, all that and it makes it easier to keep track of everybody.

SP: Yes but you made, you made a point and it is, it is, whether you like it or not it's incorrect, so nonetheless if you're not going to remove and change that {becomes unintelligible but the jist is that the penalty is a disciplinary court}
.
.
.
.
.
{discussion of my past, first excommunication, what got me to where I am now}
.
.
.
{he likes the word "categorically" and said it several times in giving me his testimony and telling me I've erred and will find that out someday}
.
.
{we discuss study. He studies every day. We discussed Elder Ballard. I asked him if he has read the essays. He said no. I told him he was derelict in his duty. He said he won't go there.}
.
.
{we finally get back to business}

SP: You'll get a letter delivered by the Bishop and probably another Brother to schedule {unintelligible because he's talking very softly but refers to a disciplinary court} I'd like you to be there.


So, there you have the core if it.

In their pillow talk, the SP told Sis. SP that he'd done the right thing and that he felt sorry for you. She rolled her eyes (which he didn't see, because he was busy having a vision in which a being of sublime purity was giving him an award at a stake dinner and the applause was simply overwhelming!) and said something about hoping his, the SP's, girlfriend would be more supportive of his need for validation.

When it finally penetrated, the SP frowned at Sis. SP and said, "I told you, she's NOT my girlfriend; I'm just her ecclesiastical leader and she needs counseling.

Sis. SP pretended not to hear.

Bruce A Holt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, there you have the core if it.

Good luck moose. It just goes to show you how patient, loving, and such the leaders are.

No clarifications from you.

No loving listening.

No understanding of why you did what you did.

The medium is their message and since you weren't faith promoting you are out.

Not a cult? Nah.

I thought the meeting was last night for some reason.

By the way, I've sent the raw recording of the meeting to John Dehlin. I'd like to get his comments.

BPs & most SPs are Totally in the dark abt accurate church history; the 'best' method is to point out the disconnect between claims & on-the-ground church practices, Mormon Royalty privileges, etc.


Kindness, Honesty, Respect (all attributes of unconditional love) are virtually unknown in Mormon culture, because:

Mormonism is A VERY competitive lifestyle; the wives are somewhat/sometimes responsible for 'always' wanting hubby to Climb the LDS Ladder of authority/responsibility... They're 'home making donuts' while hubby's in PH meetings, Who Can Blame Them!?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1999/04/our-sacred-duty-to-honor-women?lang=eng

Thanks for that, Russ!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 04:03PM by GNPE.

So the Board of Ejectors won't even read the issues brought up in the CES letter.

That's like a doctor who never studies diseases. "Diseases are bad for people and I don't want to know anything about them!"

Actually, I think the "CES Letter" needs a new title that is more descriptive of what it has BECOME. Like, "A Quest for Truth" or something else that sounds worse to have ignored.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 07:56PM by seekyr.

The sp's and bp's of mormonism are terrified that they're going to read or hear something that will burst their little mormon bubble. They can't possibly judge anyone about anything when they're in that mode. The whole thing is just silly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2016 09:28PM by madalice.

IMHO the SP's refusal to read The CES letter, "I refuse to go there..." (especially after the latest directive from the holy one!), plus his petulant declaration, "I don't want to know/discuss your reasons..." shows both his embarrassing cowardice and that the whole exercise is a sham.

On some level, surely his brain must hurt from the exercise in cognitive dissonance.

And can someone explain to me how the leaders of tscc can say their stance on lgbt issues, as explained in their proclamation, is permissible due to their first amendment rights, and then deny you the same freedom to make a statement?

Way to go, man. You remain calm and assured while he gets more and more insistent until he's almost sputtering. Can hardly wait for the final shoe to drop. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

It wasn't the CES letter he wouldn't read, but infinitely worse, the churchs own essays!! What a tool....

SP: You don't have to. A lot of people accept things a...as is. As, as, as a maestro you could say...


To me, this shows why the church can't tolerate anyone saying anything against it. They have taught the members to accept what they are taught without question or investigation, and they fear others leaving just because you said so. The church doesn't show any confidence in their own message, the holy ghost, or their members themselves. They see you as POWERFUL.

I think you are 100% right. They don't even have any confidence in their god either. Satan and everyone who is against them have more power than god. They send out missionaries because god is powerless to get his message out. One puff of wind and it all falls apart.

No one should be punished for disagreeing with church authorities. It makes them look so culty when people can't speak freely to whoever they want. People think for themselves and then leave, which eats into their profits. I think this is what ultimately makes them trigger happy with excommunication.

That's right. It threatens their power base and status quo.

Those who question rattle the tree. They're afraid of knowledge because knowledge is power.

That's why I don't believe in giving over any more power to them than they've already taken away from me from when I lived that lie.

They teach and preach from a base of ignorance and fear.

These church courts are kangaroo courts. There is no presumption of innocence, no due process. You've been convicted before entering the court of "love." It isn't based on anything Christ taught during his earthly ministry. It's just shame based, condemning, and exclusionary.

I didn't understand it for the cult like practice that it is until after I left church membership. Now that I do, I'm more thankful to have left on my terms rather than the morg's. When they ex someone they use the excuse it was because of their sinful lifestyle, actions, choices, etc that they cut themselves off.

When I left it was because the church was a crock, plain and simple. I'd given it power over me and my life for long enough. When I left I'd taken my power back by leaving on my terms, not theirs.

The court is a game of cat and mouse. The one sitting in the defendant box is always the mouse. Why play that game if you know the score before hand? It's a charade that plays into their hands IMO.

Some of you, like Bruce Holt, must have nerves of steel. I could not and would not pretend to be a participant in something that I am adamantly opposed to and don't believe in, and be the one who stands accused of nothing more than defiance.

That's one thing living in America has given us, besides Mormonism. Is our freedom of choice, and conscience. We don't have to go there if we don't want to ourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2016 10:21PM by Amyjo.

My Bishop called and my "invitation" should be delivered tonight.

If nothing else, after your court, maybe just one of the high council guys will look himself in the mirror and ask, "just what kind of organization am I a part of?"

That is precisely what I would love to happen! Nailed it!