...to enforce idealistic and culturally reinforced standards to human beauty.

Our prehistoric ancestors walked the planet immodestly. Our more recent ancestors didn't balk at nudity.

We on the other hand are fattened up, acculturated to impossible ideals, and cover ourselves up in shame from not being able to adhere to them.

What better way to mess with people. But then again, this is Satan's doing I'm sure.

(warning language)
http://i.imgur.com/8bNwIR6.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2016 12:33PM by Elder Berry.

The concept of modesty has been merely one tactic used by TSCC to make their members obsessed with sex. There are so many rules about what NOT to do that are related to normal, safe human behaviour and thoughts, that TBMs are forced to think about sex all the time in an attempt to eliminate those normal, safe human behaviours and thoughts. For example, unsexy body parts like shoulders are sexualized.

All the discussion and rules about sex was the first thing I noticed when I began doing research, which led me to think that LDS is a kinky sex cult. That was BEFORE I started talking to exmos. Just an observation from an outsider.

If you pretend sexuality doesn't exist, maybe it will go away.

Kinky sex cult? Absolutely. Funny how some things never change.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kinky sex cult? Absolutely. Funny how some things
> never change.

Garments change, temple chanting changes, tithing slips change, The Book of Mormon changes, but creepy sex cult seems to be the one thing Joseph's god is unchangable on...

Not young people, per se, but mostly young women. Modesty is above all a tool with which to control and subjugate female sexuality, to excuse and promote rape culture (she was asking for it...what did she expect...she's a tease) and the view of women as property. How much modesty has historically been directed so urgently at boys, men? What is the word for a promiscuous boy or man again? And no, combinations using slut or whore do not count.

Point taken, but I think there are far, far fewer incidents involving boys, but I bet they exist and probably becoming more common. Gender identification and sexual orientations are not physiological facts.

Appeciate that. I see TSCC's continued unhealthy obsession over modesty to be little more than one particular religious cult's continuation of thousands of years of patriarchy. It's disgusting to me personally because I grew up in TSCC and internalized too many of its destructive messages, but modesty obsessions will primarily and always be about controlling and punishing female sexual expression.

Spending most of my adult life far, far away from the Morridor has taught me how deep this particular rabbit hole goes. TSCC is unique in some ways, but really not so much, particularly where women in religious frameworks are concerned.

I see this as more than just female but I grant that it is 80/20 or more towards the female side, but try being a boy and say moving the shorts hem up beyond the knees nowadays.

I can appreciate that, while at the same time I have far too many regular conversations with female friends about how to say "not interested" in a polite, direct way when a man comes on to them without risking an upsetting, threatening response.

I like my body. I have worked very hard to keep it strong and healthy as I approach middle age. I like how I look and feel in certain clothes, and there is nothing wrong with believing I am an attractive person. It feels powerful.

That power all but implodes the minute some fifty something guy sees my wedding ring, still comes on to me because of the way I'm dressed and because DH isn't around, then clearly implies that I wouldn't be interested in cheating if I wasn't dressing in such a way - or that I'm a tease because I enjoy feeling and looking attractive.

As a 46 year old woman, that this sort of dynamic persists well outside the narrower religious corridors of female modesty both fascinates and alarms me.

Wasn't it just the other week that some guy shot and killed a waitress who waited on him - because she rejected his advances?

How often do men or boys worry that women or girls will kill or violently assault them if they say "thanks, I'm flattered, but not interested" or dress in clothes that show more skin?

That's the heart of what I'm getting at when I critique TSCC's stance on modesty. It's definitely offensive in its own right, for obvious reasons, but it's nothing new when it comes to the historical patriarchal subjugation of female sexuality.

I added this.

http://i.imgur.com/8bNwIR6.jpg

Because it is that ridiculous that humans aren't humane.

Coming from that perspective, yes - we all need Satan ;-P The Judeo Christian and Muslim God ain't a friend of the modern feminist, that much seems a given.

Thanks for the respectful dialogue - it seems a rare commodity online to say nothing of in real life.

Your world isn't mine. In trying to understand The Universe, I can only do it trying to understand one world at a time.

Elder Berry Wrote:
> Gender identification and sexual orientations are not
> physiological facts.

Hmmm. I'm sure several dissertations could be written on that statement alone. More consideration seems prudent. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

You are welcome. Back in Ancient Greece male beauty was much more of a focus, but it is thousands of years later much the same whereas female beauty has had more variations.

The modesty Nazis I know are women. I assume they simply don't like other women competing for the attention of their man. Which is why women shame other women and call the sluts if they show too much.

All about monopoly control.

Was just researching the rape culture thing mentioned above. Turns out it is bogus, as this woman explains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3_ty5jKkX0

Thanks for the video. I've watched it before. It is excellent.

Which is telling half the story. Do women that internalize misogyny use relational aggression as a method of slutshaming other women? Absolutely, however, there are plenty of men that use physical intimidation and aggression, then justification for sexually assaulting others, including men.

Haven't heard what assuming leads to?

It's hysterical that you're using an individualistic feminist to prop up your misogynistic views. I agree with a lot of what McElroy has to say, but I disagree that "rape culture is bogus." Feminism is not necessarily a monolithic movement, and there are disagreements within various tenets.

We absolutely live in a culture that at best, normalizes and minimizes sexual violence against both women and men.

When you have ads like this:
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJXhOjp3Q7A-DdhRLH-AEiEsZ5XYEbu6Jp_i9JVFwV1kylMFUQ
and this:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtm15DG73R3pEJC9gJtdjSDblKqF-YI1gWS_U46_B0ujM8rRAe
and this:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxsu2YFfn5ev0UglnXYac4Z92psQlJsPE1ZIykFXGaqIX4P_qg

When you have politicians saying crap like this on a regular basis:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/16/the-party-of-rape-culture-40-republican-rape-quotes-everyone-should-remember/

When you have people who don't even realize they're rapists a la Cee Lo Green, when you have a judge excusing the rape of a 14 year old, when you have to wonder every time you leave the house if you're going to be harassed, (I do, because it happens so frequently) there is something very sick in our society when it comes to sexual violence.

I like a lot of what McElroy has to say about sex positivism and individualistic feminism, but I am not on board with her views here.

Best response is "I would cover up if I had a body like yours too."

There is a focus on women because most women have a tendency dress like skanks. It's just in their nature of self expression. Low cut, tight fitting, showing their merchandise especially when they are a little chunky to begin with. Guys don't dress like this (usually). Guys buy clothes that actually fit. They cut their hair short and keep it simple. They dress like they are of more value than women. Maybe it's a self esteem issue?

I don't know where you live but I am glad it is not near me. Skanks, merchandise. It is nice to know your opinion of women.

But there's no such thing as rape culture.

I've said it before, but if he ever wonders why he's single, it's probably because of views like this.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've said it before, but if he ever wonders why
> he's single, it's probably because of views like
> this.

I don't understand. A problem is that these views are accepted in many circles.

Edit: and marital/partner status as a form of shaming is and interesting angle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 06:44PM by Elder Berry.

Slowly, but it is.

If you want to call it marital/partner shaming, go right ahead.
I call it being blunt and forthright, especially when a person is constantly demeaning women for their weight, clothing choices, and "inherent nature."

I've met a lot of guys who spew this kind of bile, then whine about how no woman will give them the time of day and how they're such nice guys. Maybe this is poopstone, maybe not, but his views are nothing short of disgusting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 06:57PM by Itzpapalotl.

I don't agree with his opinion nor your confusing causality with correlation. The sad truth is lots of men with that opinion have no problems in that department.

We'll have to agree to disagree. There's plenty of D-bags that can sleep with some women because they know how to turn on the charm.

There's also plenty of smart, attractive women who aren't taken in by this kind of manipulation.

Then there's the "nice guys" who bitch and moan about how awful women are, but they should be dating them.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We'll have to agree to disagree.

"Maybe this is poopstone, maybe not, but his views are nothing short of disgusting."

If you don't know then I don't know that we have anything to agree to disagree about. We both don't like the opinion.

I don't even know what we're agreeing with or disagreeing about at this point.

Probably this.

"I've said it before, but if he ever wonders why he's single, it's probably because of views like this."

I don't agree that this is a cause and effect nor a reason to attack his view.

It seems to be a view that probably has less to do with being a single man. And to use it like one could infer the opposite is ridiculous in my opinion.

We are people, individuals, and not our opinions or statuses. Being single isn't shame to bear for holding an opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2016 07:21PM by Elder Berry.

I don't necessarily agree with you, but those are good points.

The multitude of experiences I have with people of these opinions has probably coloured my views and reflects a bias on my part.