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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 01:04AM

How is it possible that the prophet and quorum of the twelve apostles have maintained their composure so well knowing that they are lying to church members? Like, how are they not being eaten up by guilt knowing that they are lying to millions of people? They must be some narcissistic pieces of shit. I just can't see why anyone in their right mind would want to take the position of an apostle knowing full well that they are lying to people's faces. It's so obvious that they would know that the church is false also because all of them are very intelligent people, so its not like they could say "oh I didn't know that the church was false so I can't be accountable for my actions." This has just really been bothering me lately. I just want one of the apostles to break and fess up to everyone that they have been lying to us and apologize. Im just getting sick and tired of seeing the pain that the church has caused to people and their families. On another note, do you guys think that a "higher up" is eventually going to lose it and tell the truth?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 01:16AM

practice, practice, practice!

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 01:48AM

Ballaboy234 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's so obvious that they
> would know that the church is false also because
> all of them are very intelligent people, so its
> not like they could say "oh I didn't know that the
> church was false so I can't be accountable for my
> actions."

They are totally convinced that the Church is true. To them
the idea that the Church even COULD be false is beyond their
ability to grasp.

My brother is an institute director. About ten years ago he
wanted to open up a dialogue with me about the Church. His
idea was that he thought he could "talk me back" into the
Church. Well in this email exchange that went on and off for
about 7 years I hit him with the problems and why I thought
they were insurmountable.

Didn't phase him in the least. It was all water off a duck's
back. Now my brother is intelligent too. He has a PhD. It's
just that he cannot comprehend the Church being false, so he
will counter with VERY weak arguments and consider them
overwhelmingly strong.

So my brother KNOWS all the historical problems because I have
carefully explained them to him. And he still believes.

And if the example of my brother isn't enough, consider D.
Michael Quinn. He's a specialist in early Mormon history.
Nobody knows the problems in the Mormon store better than he
does. He's where a lot of us learned about it from.

He was excommunicated from the Church, so there's no earthly
reason for him to claim belief in the Church. Yet he firmly
believes the Book of Mormon is an actual,. historical document,
and that the Brethren hold actual priesthood authority.

So, as far as I can see, the GA's are like my brother, or D.
Michael Quinn. Long ago they made a firm decision that they
are going to believe no matter what. And, they do.

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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 02:10AM

I'm not sure if I believe that answer. The gospel may ring true to your brother because he doesn't need to see to believe cuz he believes the prophets speak as gods mouthpiece, and the apostles actually have some sort of direct contact with God. but how can an apostate actually believe he is doing God's work? The apostates should be conversing with God face to face just like ancient prophets in the bible and Book of Mormon. Why doesnt t monson just come out and say that he conversed with God and this is what he wants the church to do? Moses wasn't afraid to say that he spoke with God, but for some reason none of the latter day prophets except j smith have actually admitted to speaking with God, that I know of at least. It's obvious that they aren't in direct contact with God because if they were they would know the future, and also be able to do other supernatural things just like prophets of old.

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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 02:12AM

Sorry I have a few typos, I said apostates instead of apostles. I'm writing this on my phone so it's kind of hard to edit the text.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:32AM

Don't worry about that too much. Even BYU's newspaper has made the "mistake" before (Freudian slips being so easy to make!):

Read about the "Quorum of the Twelve Apostates" here:

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/ci_12085011

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 10:27AM

Ballaboy234 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry I have a few typos, I said apostates instead
> of apostles. I'm writing this on my phone so it's
> kind of hard to edit the text.


I agree that typos are something we should not sweat, but thanks for the clarification regarding "apostate" versus "apostle." I wasn't entirely sure from where you were coming before the clarification.

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Posted by: chris ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 10:56AM

None of the Mormons I know who are somewhat aware of the issues seem to believe that the prophets/apostles regularly converse directly with God.

They probably teach their own kids (and investigators) that the prophets do, but in their own public beliefs, they are willing to accept that the Apostles receive revelation the same way anyone else does.

I suspect for a lot of higher-ups, there is never really any "aha" moment where they realize nobody is talking to God face-to-face, because they've "known all along" that's not really how it works.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:07PM

That was five or six years ago. He was not a believe at that time. At least from his comments about Church, Leaders, Doctrine .

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Posted by: Historischer ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:10AM

They will maintain their composure until their finely balanced belief system is put under serious stress. That would most likely come from a legal action or internal scandal of some sort. When they quit trusting each other, one of them will inevitably start saying and doing things that would have been unthinkable.

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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 09:36AM

It's insane that they actual believe in the gospel. Lol anyone with a brain knows that Joseph smith was a creepy lying conman, but for some reason they believe that he was a prophet, go figure...

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:21AM

Ballaboy - i think you meant to say how do the Apostles maintain..... rather than Apostates maintain -- LOL

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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 09:30AM

Haha I know! That's why I commented under my reply correcting myself lol.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 09:49AM

They live very luxurious lives on the backs of the members. Their children do, too. Where is that old post of Steve Benson's about some of the perks of being the grandchild of a prophet?

They love the adoration. They are "rock stars" in the eyes of the members. I went to GC with my TBM daughter once after I left the church and I was shocked by how they were treated and even the ushers were gushing about being able to see the prophet and leaders.

How about power? Didn't Joseph Smith even write a scripture about power?

I had a bishop friend (I talk about him some times on here). He counseled me strongly to marry my gay boyfriend. When my husband left me, I asked him why I should still go to churcn and he actually said, "I can't really give you a reason except that I know it is the right thing to do." He has a master's degree in chemistry. I heard enough from him to believe he doesn't really believe, but he enjoys the adoration he gets from other members, especially young girls.

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Posted by: Ballaboy234 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 10:02AM

Ok, now ur bishop is a creep if he's doing that to get attention from young girls! lol

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 10:12AM

He was a coworker years ago and we became very close friends, and I was young and hot. And I went to him for "counsel" quite often.

As I got older and wasn't as cute, I sort of fell out of favor. I kind of wondered if it was because I failed at the gay/straight marriage and he felt guilty for helping get me into it. But then I watched his fb page and I drew a different conclusion.

My ex's father was a bishop for a long time (before the 5 year limit). He lived in Rexburg and followed the students around, ate in the cafeteria at the college, had apartments that he rented to young women, etc., and was looking for his future brides right up until his death in his 80s. Was picked up for stalking young women.

You think these apostles aren't enjoying the attention they get from the young women? So many young women are in love with them including my own daughter. It isn't just my bishop "friend." Did even Russell Nelson marry a woman closer to his own age when he remarried? I know his new wife isn't a woman in her 20s, but she isn't a woman in her 90s either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 10:13AM by cl2.

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Posted by: ^ ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 05:33PM

--"Insider" Memories of General Conference

Summing it up, my back-in-the-heyday experiences in the corridors of Mormon perkified "power" could be described in two words:

"GA Gluttony"

It took many forms, and at General Conference time was on full parade.

In the past, some on this board have hammered LDS Inc.'s Blue-Suited Good Ol' Boys Club for pigging out in public on the Sabbath. This is par for their course, of course. On Conference weekend, they've done it high above the "little people" in the Great and Spacious Church Office Building. In that case, however, the GAs were a bit more "humble": They were chowing down atop Salt Lake City's tallest skyscraper where most people couldn't see them and you had to have connections with the GAs to get in.

As we all bask in the baloney (or other appropriate word inserted here) of Conference, I'd like to share, for the benefit of the "newbies" here, a few re-posted recollections on having experienced the charade "from the inside," so to speak (with apologies to those who have heard these before).
_____


--Special Tickets to See Telepromptings by the Spirit

At General Conference time, members of Ezra Taft Benson's family (along with the relations of other GAs) were provided special, exclusive, non-transferable family passes--identified as such--for admission into the sessions. They were issued to us through ETB's office manager and used to access the Tabernacle at a designated portal. We'd cut in line, flash the ticket, and be escorted to our seats. It wasn't fair or right, but neither concept operates in Mormonism.

One of the more interesting vantage points for viewing Conference was sitting high up in the dome, behind the Tabernacle Choir, next to the white plastered walls and massive organ pipes. To get there, the ushers would lead us through a low-ceiling wood-paneled carpeted area behind the dais, to a back passageway and up a narrow stairwell to the crow's nest. From there, I could look down over the bald spots of the fellows in the men's section, directly on to the pulpit.

While it provided a unique view, it was also as hot as hell. There were big, colored lights up where we sat, used for shining on the smooth, blank walls behind us for special effect. Sitting there in our Sunday best, we did a slow cook--but it wasn't due to any burning in the bosom. During the last few times I sat up there, I would read anti-Mormon literature that I had been handed at the gates of Temple Square a few minutes earlier, since it was often more interesting than the GA sermons.

From high atop the Choir lair, I could see the GAs reading from their teleprompted scripts. The texts would scroll across a screen embedded in the top of the pulpit and then reflect up on panes of glass strategically positioned in front of the speakers.

Not only were the sermons teleprompted, I witnessed the Lord's anointed getting cues on their prepared prayers by artificial means. Everything was tightly timed, with the GAs supposed heartfelt petitions to heaven, as well as their ostensibly Holy Ghost-inspired sermons, precisely orchestrated and slotted into the overall script, so that the camera operators could, on cue, cut to commercial breaks, or to warm and fuzzy Red Square (er, Temple Square) vignettes, or to the chime of the Nauvoo Bell.
_____


--We Thank Thee, Oh, God, We're Related to the Prophet--and Can be Seen at General Conference in These Latter Days

When Benson family members weren't perched up behind the Tabernacle Choir, we could sit in specially roped-off benches, front and center, on the main floor of the Tabernacle, along with the other family and friends of the "we're-oh-so-special" GA crowd.

My then-spouse and I became increasingly uncomfortable with what we considered to be an arrogant arrangement and so decided that we would remain behind and simply watch Conference on TV at the Salt Lake home of my parents.

My mother became quite upset when we told her of our decision. She said that ETB wanted his family to be with him--in the Tabernacle--during Conference so that he could look down from the dais and see us all there on those hard, fake wood-stained benches as a sign of our love and support.

I told my mother that if this was what my grandfather wanted, then we would sit there in the Tabernacle until ETB got up and left. That meant that because he was now pretty old and frail, his assistants would often escort him out of the Conference session at the hour break--during the rest song, when everyone would stand up, stretch and sing a hymn before dropping back on their faithful posteriors for the second half of indoctrination.

So that's what we did. ETB would be escorted out during the break, waving weakly, and we would likewise exit (without waving, by the way). We would meet up with him in the back area, out of sight behind the dais, where we would join him and his handlers in escorting him through an underground tunnel over to his Eagle Gate condo that was across the street from Temple Square.

Or, if his assistants got ETB out ahead of us, we would simply make our own way out of the Tabernacle and go over to his apartment. By then, ETB's staff had wheel chaired him into his small, private study, where they would place him in a soft, leather reclining chair. They would then either turn on the TV for the second half of Conference or merely play soft music for him to listen to.

I, and other members of the family, would join ETB here for the duration of the Conference session. I would sit by his side, holding his hand and occasionally speaking to him softly. He would smile, squeeze my hand and sometimes say a word or two. But most of the time, he would not say or do much of anything, but just sit there.
_____


--Inside the Tabernacle, Trying to Talk to Church Security

When we did sit in the Tabernacle's seating area set aside for GA family members and Church-designated dignitaries (like Senator Orrin Hatch), I would often spot a friend of mine, with whom I had grown up and played as a boy in Salt Lake City.

His name was Doyle. Doyle (but by then known as "Duff") had morphed into a buff, jut-jawed dude with a microphone screwed into his ear. Doyle, you see, had landed a job working the Church security Conference detail.

I would sit there on the benches and observe him standing silently down in front of the plush seats for the GAs, intently scanning the audience. Prior to the kick-off of the Conference sessions, as we made our way to our seats, I would say hi to Doyle. He would respond with a tight-lipped smile, nod briefly and not say much more.
_____


--GA Gluttony

Based upon my own Benson experience with "Brethren Bennies," it used to be a tradition among the "perkified" that between breaks of the General Conference morning and afternoon sessions, GAs and their families were treated to a sumptuous lunch, high atop the

The GAs' relations (as well as friends and dates brought along by, say, their grandchildren) would gather at large tables, where they would be served heaping plates full of hot food, brought to them by young, crisply dressed girls. It was a place to eat, to be seen and to impress.

Meanwhile, during this GA gorge-fest, we could look out the windows of this Great and Spacious Building, down at the lawn directly outside the Tabernacle, where the "great unwashed"--those LDS "little people"--were clustered on blankets brought from home, eating cheap box lunches which they had bought or food they had packed themselves--waiting and hoping to get into the afternoon session.

With our bellies full and burping pleasantly, Benson family members would eventually make their way down to the Tabernacle where we would again flash our passes, cut into line at the last minute ahead of people who had been waiting for hours, and make our way into "our" special seating.

One year, after returning home to Arizona from Conference, a member of our ward mentioned to my then-spouse that she had seen us at Temple Square as we maneuvered our way into the Tabernacle, where she and her family had long been waiting, trying to get in by standing in line. It was an uncomfortable encounter for her--and we both knew the arrangement was not right.

We finally had enough of this kind of undeserved treatment, so decided in the future to wait in line with everyone else. If we couldn't make it in to the Tabernacle because seating ran out, we would go over to the Assembly Hall and listen to Conference being piped in from across the way.
_____


--Conclusion

With General Conference playing today and the prophets, seers and teleprompted revelators imparting their words of wisdom, I look back on those former days and did what had to be done:

I went and got a flat tire on my truck fixed.

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Posted by: desertman ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 02:52PM

Is it possible that they believe not getting caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 02:52PM by desertman.

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Posted by: Baldy ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:03PM

The "truth" is whatever people will believe. That was Mark Hofmann's justification in the 1980s when he was creating the forgeries he sold to TSCC.

I suspect Joe's justification was much the same. Lies are the true if enough people want to believe in them. Who was he to tell them different? \end sarcasm

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Posted by: Bamboozled ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:07PM

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:31PM

Very good question. One that I can't figure out.

I think they have a serious mental illness, or are very evil...

Because they KNOW they are liers. They know they are perpetuating a fraud, are harming others.

But they don't care. They have no capacity for empathy. To me, that is evil. To me, and others, and laws, evil or wrong doing is taking from others for your own benefit at others expense. Fraud, stealing, commuting adultery, assault...is to harm others so you can benefit.

They have the money to hire any professional on the planet to research their claims. They are humans, like all of us exmos, hundreds of thousands of us that had to leave the cult because of personal integrity that the vast majority of humans have to some degree or other.

Their ego and pride have corrupted them, totally. It's easy to figure out because they have whitewashed, lied, controlled information, brainwashed, indoctrinated.... And all that started when we were infants.

They know how to control babies, infants, children, tweens, teens, young adults, adults, seniors. That is how Mormonism works by brainwashing starting at birth, and having your members reproduce like rabbits. They also present the cult as something to get emotionally bonded to. Not bonded to Jesus, but bonded to the cult.

So they lie and put a positive spin on everything, so even when some are exposed to the horrific reality, like JS screwing teens as young as 14, they can rationalize it somehow. The emotional bond is paramount. The church is true, is the fastest growing, bla bla bullshit....

Also the secret info, like temple shit, makes members feel special and superior. Once members feel special and superior, the 15 cult fuckers can lie their Depends filled asses off, and members buy it hook line and sinker, to the point of cleaning the ward house and bathrooms.

It's a cult based on controlling, punishing, and shameing. They even stop parents from seeing their own children's temple wedding. What nonsatanic person would do that? What gives them the right to restrict me from my own child's wedding? What dictatorial, communistic organization would do that? Jesus went to a wedding, and brought the wine! Lots of really really good wine.

They know they are religious actors. Arrogance disguised as righteousness.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:32PM

The LDS Leaders are doing what they believe is their duty.
There is no evidence any of then would lie about their beliefs.
There are thousands of religious leaders in the world. I would guess that most of them would go to their death never denying their beliefs.

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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:52PM

There IS evidence they lie...

For 185 years they hid the fact that JS screwed teens as young as 14. How is that not a lie?????????

They had me sing the hymn, Praise to the Man. How is that not a disgusting thing to have decent, honorable members do????

The hymn should be, Incarcerate the Man Whore who Screwed Teens as Young as 14.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 06:00PM

Notice I said: "lie about their beliefs"

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Posted by: verilyverily ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:41PM

They are as EVIL as are ISIS members. Any questions?

"The LDS Leaders are doing what they believe is their duty.
There is no evidence any of then would lie about their beliefs.
There are thousands of religious leaders in the world. I would guess that most of them would go to their death never denying their beliefs." YES, the CULT and ISIS = 2 OF A KIND. Except ISIS is honest about what they are planning to do and are not lying about it. The CULT lies continually. In same ways that is worse than ISIS. Hitler and ISIS have that in common. They told/tell people exactly waht their plans are [evil as the are] and if people are too stupid to believe them, it is to the people's detriment. The CULT on the other hand lies and lies and so it takes lots of research etc. to realize what they are up to and then the shelf breaks and then the recovery begins. SLIME BALLS!
ISIS, NAZIS, CULT = 3 PEAS IN A POD ALL HORRENDOUSLY EVIL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 03:45PM by verilyverily.

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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:54PM

I soooo appreciate your passion

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Posted by: TDM ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:59PM

What if a GA or Apostle left the church in the next few years? Would you still say they were like the Nazis or would you suddenly change their mind and decide they're an amazing, honorable person?

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Posted by: TDM ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 03:58PM

I think most of the Apostles believe. There might be a couple of them who don't believe but go on with it to keep the peace, just like many of us are doing (or did in the past).

Hans Mattsson was an Area Seventy, and he believed the entire time. People seem to keep forgetting that...

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:01PM

The apostles have been acting apostolic since they were very young. Practice makes perfect. Obsessive practice also makes it easy for your actions to become automatic so you have a knee jerk reaction to act apostolic no matter the circumstance.

I know quite a few people such as those Baura describes. In the end, wishful thinking is stronger than truth.

My brother's talent is church. He gets his self esteem and identity from church. He has a Ph.D. and has had a very successful career but it his church success that gives him the ego boost he craves.

My brother as an MP and now Area Seventy knows all the problems with the church. He doesn't want them to be true, so to him they are not true. It is okay that he can't explain them, because he can always murmur the family mantras,

"God works in mysterious ways."

"Heavenly Father does not want us to delve into the mysteries."

"All will be explained in the hereafter."

So for people like my family, the most important thing they can do in life is have faith in the Mormon church no matter what. There is nothing that could happen or that you could show them because they aren't interested one bit in the truth or facts or reason. Their only interest is to show that they have faith that can never be destroyed, more faith than anyone else. Their focus is faith not truth. They are in it to win it. Period.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2016 04:01PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: Bamboozled ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:06PM

This.

Some members double down and others fold when presented with the truth.

GA's double or triple down. I think they are incapable of even considering they've been bamboozled.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:13PM

I'll add a "This!" to this...

I could totally have been your brother if my life had gone a little different. My parents were grooming me for "great things" in the church.

I knew from the time I was a teenager about the polygamy, problems with the BOM, etc... But I wouldn't allow myself to put them together into a coherent critique of the church itself. There were justifications and rationalizations for everything. EVERYTHING.

You could have presented documented proof that Joseph Smith was a conman who slept with teenagers across the country (which he pretty much was and did) and I would have justified it with a "Heavenly Father had his reasons for making him do that" or something similarly stupid.

It took me years of inactivity and separation from the church for my head to unwind and when it did, it was devastating.

In a way I think I was trying to avoid that devastation as long as I could because I didn't want to look at the life I had lead under the church. It just hurt to much.

Never underestimate the ability of a person to mislead themselves.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 04:41PM

Do birds shit in their own nests?

Why would they do something to jeprodize their paycheck?

They look the other way.

They go along to get along.

They keep quiet because none of the rest of them are saying

anything.

Sheep will be sheep. Liars will be liars.

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Posted by: Heretic 2 ( )
Date: February 15, 2016 11:43PM

Satan went back and rewrote all the records so that it looks like Joseph Smith was a philanderer, opened an illegal bank that ended up failing, translated the gold plates with a rock in a hat, and completely mistranslated the Breathing Permit of Hor.

So in the mind of an apostle, Joseph Smith is still a paragon of virtue, just like we were taught in primary.

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