I'm not sure what happened this morning, but my TBM DW unloaded on me for not believing in TSCC and it escalated from there into a heated argument which was mercifully short because we both had to go to work. Before I continue, I'm not looking for anybody to dump on my wife, I just want some perspective on what just happened.

She prefaced her initial comments by acknowledging that she was normally tolerant of my lack of faith (I'm nevermo) and was confident that I would eventually realize the truth of mormonism; but that today, for reasons unknown to even herself, it was really bothering her. She then asked me to listen patiently, which she acknowledged I am very good at doing, while she talks through everything she had to say to me without interruption. OK, I could do that.

DW accused me of not giving TSCC a fair trial before rejecting it. It her vernacular, putting TSCC on trial is choosing to believe it and to live it as a means of testing it. She had said that that is what she had done with almost a dozen other religions (including Catholicism, Judaism, and even Scientology), all of which had failed before the mishies found her.

DW was generally angry, afraid, and aimless back then, and was very down on all religions because all of them claimed to follow the same bible but couldn't agree on what it meant. The mishies, who were put on her scent by her mother (a new convert herself, and not one who's opinion I would trust on anything, must have told the mishies that DW was a young single mom who was going through some hard times), had ready answers for all of DW's questions and concerns. They convinced her what would it hurt to immerse herself in the whole mormon experience to see whether it didn't change her life.

She believes that everything good in her life (with me being a notable exception) has stemmed directly from her faith in TSCC during 25 years after joining and before we met. However, based on her unguarded comments over the past three years, I know that her marriage with her RM ex was a living psychological nightmare. She was depressed the whole time and seriously thought that she was going crazy. She also acknowledges that her time with me has been that happiest time of her life...no overwhelming depression and no thoughts that she is insane. DW recognizes now that she was never crazy, though her RM ex (who is a piece of work himself) wanted her to believe she was. Now, she finally feels "like herself" again.

Back to this morning, DW asked to know why I choose not to believe the TSCC and refuse to even try it. To which I replied, there's nothing there to believe...there's no evidence of anything TSCC claims, and I feel no obligation to buy into anything that cannot back up what it claims to be.

DW then claimed that the BoM was just as valid as the Catholic bible (I was raised Catholic, but left a long time ago). I must have smirked at that because DW then asked what my problem problem was with the comparison. As I told her, I'm not so sure about the claims the bible makes either. "What about Jesus?" Well, "A" Jesus may have existed, but I doubt that he was "THE" Jesus Christ described in the bible. Once again, little or no evidence beyond the bible. And though you can actually make correlations betweeen the bible and reality, there are far more inconsistencies and nothing definitive.

This was all on the heels of a dinner we had with the sister mishies earlier this week where DW said that she had resigned herself to the fact that she may never serve a mission herself since it is unlikely that I will join TSCC.

Sorry for the length, despite my efforts to summarize some complex backstories and conversations, and for a rambling narrative. Writing is cathartic, and I needed to vent.

I don't. I just wanted you to know I read your post and I hope more do. If it gets lost, top the post. A lot of people here have dealt with situations like your's.

The only thing that came to mind for me is to go buy "In Sacred Loneliness"--written by a believing, active member of the LDS church. It disturbed me deeply.

It is about Joseph Smith's wives.

DW once told me that it was strange that I wasn't Mormon because, in many ways (except for coffee and beer), I was "more Mormon" than her RM ex.

I'm wondering now whether she had hope that by marrying me, and by me converting, that she would finally have the "perfect Mormon life" she had envisioned for herself.

If that's the case, I'm so sorry that I cannot oblige her by agreeing to the lobotomy required for me to convert.

Your wife knew what you were like before she married you. It is not reasonable for her to expect that she could change you, and that you would become religious and convert to Mormonism. It is too bad that she does not "count her blessings" and be happy that she now has a good husband unlike her last one.

Hopefully things will just blow over and calm down for you again.

She knew you weren't a Mormon when she married you. But somewhere in the back of her mind, she hoped you would convert. Mormons have a tendency to think that any good and honest person who gives the church a chance will someday convert. Add that to a fair number of people who marry someone with the intent to change them. They hear stories about spouses converting all of the time, and that's always the hope.

But you haven't converted. And that's frustrating to her, because she REALLY REALLY wants an eternal marriage.

Sometimes people with non-member spouses are marginalized at church, and they don't really fit into activities geared towards couples. They hear about idealized eternal families all of the time. Maybe there have been talks at church recently that upset her. I know that as a single woman in the church, those kinds of talks made me feel like I was missing out on some of the most important things in life.

I've heard that divorced women and those with non-member husbands are sometimes treated with suspicion, as if they are homewreckers on the hunt for a new man. So she may be feeling that.

This might be a good time to ask her if there is something that has stirred up her feelings about this. Ask her about her thoughts on eternal marriage and maybe you can share some thoughts about it, too. Personally, I don't see a lot of happy marriages in the church. It's so much about hurrying to get married and checking off the checklist, and being 'worthy' of an eternal family. As if people shouldn't have the RIGHT, THE RIGHT to choose who they want to be with!

She's already tried marrying a Mormon boy, with disastrous results.

Doesn't she deserve to choose the person she WANTS to be with in this life AND the next? What kind of God denies HER happiness if YOU don't worship him?

I guess basically, you should try to understand that this is probably coming out of pain and fear, and try to comfort her. But I also think you should make it clear that you will never convert, and that she needs to find a way to find peace with that. And if you can, plant small seeds of thought, to get her to question the whole concept of holding family relationships hostage to compliance with the Mormon gospel.

Thanks,

If DW is being marginalized, I'm not aware of it. It definitely isn't happening at church since I'm with her every week and would have seen it. She even has callings.

The bishop did gave a talk a couple weeks ago that struck a chord with DW, and now that I think about it is the source of her "choose to belief" rhetoric. The recurring theme in the bishop's talk was how belief is a choice and the only thing preventing our believing is the lack of will. DW gushed about that talk off and on for the next week as though it were a manna from heaven. I thought it was b.s., but kept that thought to myself.

She has talked about eternal marriage often, and has said that she doesn't want to be sealed to her ex for eternity when she'd much rather be with me. I have told her, when she asked, that I don't know what happens when we die, but that I like to believe that there is at least a small part of us that continues. That being said, I don't believe it is anything like what TSCC claims it to be; and have suggested a couple years ago that stressing the importance of being "temple worthy" seemed an effective means of persuading members to follow the rules.

She may not mention it, she may not even realize it, but she is being marginalized.

My wife left years before I did. She went inactive and I stayed active for a long time before I too fell into inactivity. (eventually we researched our way out and resigned, but that's another story)

Anyway... After she went inactive, I started noticing that people were giving me "the look". It's one when you see it, you'll recognize it. It says many things all condescending, for me it was , "Oh, that poor man, his wife went inactive, it must be so hard!" and "What's he doing wrong that she went inactive?" or "He should leave her if she won't come back to church!" People actually said the last one to my face.

I was a member in good standing, had the temple recommend, callings, etc. No one on the outside would say that I was being marginalized, but I was. I was the topic of gossip (what goes on at home, I bet they argue a lot! They can't have a happy marriage! I bet he'd like to date my daughter!) Every now and then a class or talk would be directed at me, "how to deal with a spouse who's not active" that type of thing. Remember, other members will picture you constantly sinning around her, trying to force her to drink coffee, alcohol and watch rated R movies.

She's most likely under a lot of pressure at church, whether she'll admit it or not. It is, as they've said in other places, built in.

As for "choosing to belief", that's nonsense. You can't force yourself to believe something. Our brains just don't work that way. We believe things for a lot of reasons (we were raised that way, something makes sense to us for some reason, etc) but we don't "choose" do it. Belief is a result of a lot of things, we can say, "I believe the sky is green" but we don't actually believe it, and we won't believe it without a lot of work, usually brainwashing in a case like that.

In case you're wondering, what made things work with my wife and I while we had different belief systems was that our relationship had a good foundation in mutual respect. We respected each other and allowed the other to believe what worked for them, even supported it whenever possible. We also respected each other enough to not disrespect the other person's belief. If we wanted to talk about religion we did so without using derogatory terms. It wasn't always easy, there was an argument or two (usually when I refused to look at something objectively), but for the most part that worked. Sometimes we just had to agree to disagree. It was very, very difficult for my TBM mind to do, but I managed it after a lot of practice. I love my wife dearly and didn't want this to come between us.

So, it can work...

The idea that you can prove the "truth" of any religion by living it for a while is a common one, especially for TBMs. I had a discussion about this with a fence-sitter from a TBM family recently. He said he had tested principles such as fasting, praying, and paying tithing, and found them to be "true," so that proved the church was true and he's now considering going back.

The logical fallacies operating here are false cause and the "Texas sharpshooter" (cherry-picking/remembering results to fit a preconceived notion), plus confirmation bias. It sounds like your DW is really invested in the idea that TSCC fixed her entire life and brought her everything that makes her happy, but you can invite her to think about the logic involved -- very gently and in baby steps.

You feel happier and more peaceful after praying -- does not mean TSCC is true.

You feel more spiritual when fasting -- does not mean TSCC is true.

A one-off financial positive happens soon after you pay tithing -- doesn't mean the church is true.

You felt better because you did something you perceived as a spiritual practice (and maybe it helped your stress level, like talking to a good friend or therapist would do). You had the financial windfall because random stuff happens.

To illustrate the fallacy, ask DW if, upon having a flat tire on the way to the temple (or if she became ill right after fasting and praying), she would conclude that proved the church was false. She will say "No," yet she is misusing logic in the opposite direction to reach equally unjustified conclusions. This is why "testing the principles" proves nothing. If something makes you feel better and you stick with it because of that, great -- but it doesn't make TSCC true.

Also, you can have emotionally satisfying experiences doing a lot of other things that aren't religious. Maybe she sees you doing that and it rattles her cage because she's been taught for 25 years that happiness only comes from being a TBM.

Good points. You might also point out that other people have strong spiritual (a.k.a. emotional) confirmations that THEIR religions are true. And that includes religions that she tried and rejected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2016 12:40PM by imaworkinonit.

start reading about jacob boehme and emmanuel swedenborg and encourage her to do the same. They and many others before and since, had visions, received teachings from angels, and spoke of the very same things jsmith did - pre-existence, eternal progression, adam as god, the 'mystery of golgotha' and the role of christ, infants on thrones, and so on. Just, they make more sense. However, they all preached against being 'misled' and trying to 'force' others to believe the same way.

The church may teach many thing she feels is good for her life, but it is not the first nor only organisation that followed very similar teachings.

Most of the early visionaries did not 'restore' a religion although they did write about what the 'pure' religion should be, most of them were quite happy to write about their experiences and tell anyone who asked. It was their followers who attempted to create 'societies' following the teachings of their brothers-in-faith, unlike Joe Smith who lived like a king following his establishment of god's 'one true faith', but only for a short while.

If living the faith brings benefits, surely an earlier version of the same thing will show it is not the church itself that is good, but the lifestyle she tries to follow. If she is results driven, you should be able to show her the same results are available from the teachings of other visionaries but without the mental slavery.

You might point out to her that if she'd done a little study and objective research *first,* she might not have had to go through "trying out" Catholicism, Judaism, Scientology, etc. She could have found out the flaws before "trying it out."
Which is what you've done with mormonism.

To be honest, I kind of see her rant as a defense mechanism (at least that's how it looks from afar, without knowing her or your full situation); she's scared you're right about the church.

Hope it works out.

Thank you, everybody!

I really do appreciate your comments, particularly the ones that triggered new trains of thought or recalled for me previous conversations I had with my wife.

Comments about her being defensive or afraid do strike a chord. She has admitted recently to having doubts about TSCC after some the things I've told her about it, but that she has been much more diligent in reading the scriptures and praying for answers. She claims that it has only strengthen her faith, though I suspect there are still lingering doubts.

She really is a good woman and very intelligent, though she is not as well-read as many of us here (based on the numerous and wide-ranging sources we can all cite) due to her dyslexia. It takes her much longer to read and absorb information, so she is less inclined to do research. She does, however, absorb spoken information like a sponge, and one of the things she loves is when I read to her. I would love nothing more than to read to her the sources I have found, but it would feel too much like I was personally crushing her faith when I would prefer that it be something she does through her own research.

Thanks again.

I can offer what we used in our disagreements on the religion. I was a convert, did the Mormonism thing - all nine yards, then figured out it was not what it claimed to be and lost any desire to believe or live it.
That was a serious problem for my TBM husband with Mormonism in his DNA!
So, the upshot was that we would "agree to disagree." He also agreed to live The 11th Article of Faith
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Secondly, I found that the worse time for me to engage in any discussion about disagreement was when my hormones were out of wack. I got smart, finally, and checked my calendar and decided to postpone my concerns.

Once we "agreed to disagree" all the pressure was off of both of us. We could accept each others differences and: Let It Go! I had to work on it, but when I realized that I could keep the peace, I found it very easy.

We both had the same rights. We could believe in anything we wanted, and it was OK.

That worked throughout the rest of our 50 plus year marriage. He's been gone now for just over three years. It also helped preserve our family acceptance as everyone has now left the LDS Church.

Thank you. I value the voice of experience where I have none.

We did have an "agree to disagree" policy until the past couple months when my wife seems to have been increasingly confrontational. It almost seemed at times that she wanted me to tell her everything I've learned, but didn't want to come right out and ask. Me, I'm happiest when we have no need to discuss it, so I really am not one to push it except to push back.

Thanks.

THanks, SuzieQ#1, you have given me hope. So far, my husband can't agree to disagree, he feels there is too much at stake. But I think he'll get there.

If reading is a problem maybe you could suggest some podcasts that might be helpful for her to listen to.

Most people won't change their mind if they think someone else has an agenda for them so my guess is the approach that could work best is if she could just find the list of podcasts and listen herself at her own pace. That way she finds out things "for herself".

Anther thing that sounds like may be happening is cog dis. Sometimes the loudest affirmers are having the most problems with what they are professing belief in.

You might want to lay off trying to de-convert her altogether or just call a truce. Agree to disagree. Maybe tell her if she is going to proselyte you, turnabout will be fair play.

Maybe she could look up the Mormon Stories podcast or the Why People Leave video.

http://whymormonsleave.com/hello-world/

156 hours this year spent learning that you are wrong and the church is right. Now add all other time spent in church her church related things including conversations and personal study/scripture reading, every second of which bolsters the church and her position on what YOU should believe. I’ll bet when it’s all added up it’s over 300-400 hours a year.

I wonder how much time she has spent learning other points of view? Ask her if she has ever read Plato’s allegory of the Cave. Maybe have her start there.

Mormons think it's up to mothers to keep their children as faithful members. Their friends hold it against them if some of the kids leave.

It's the same with part member families. Members and especially missionaries expect if the wife is worthy and prays hard enough, her husband will want to join up. Until that happens, they don't have the respect for her that they have for women who have their husbands being baptized and going to church.

You're in a bind. All you can do is reassure her. Tell her you love her and that if anyone could convince you of a religion, it would be her, but you're just not interested. You're sorry for her pain, but that's the truth and it's no reflection on her.

Attending church with your wife has been a completely kind, supportive, and loving thing to do. You have gone well beyond and above what the majority of nevermo spouses would be willing to do. But at the same time, I fear that you have been sending her the wrong message to your wife by doing so.

I would review the church's 11th Article of Faith with your wife and tell her that you expect her to follow her own church's teachings in that regard, and to be tolerant of your personal beliefs (or lack thereof) in the same way that she wants you to be tolerant of hers. I would tell her that while you have been attending *her* church with her as an expression of love and support, if she can't respect your right to differ, you will start to find some other ways to spend your Sundays, since after all, *you are not a Mormon.*

And if she can't manage to agree to disagree, I would start to take the occasional Sunday off. At the risk of sounding snarky, your wife is what one might term a "grown-ass woman," and she can learn to appreciate what she's got, or do without. I have been single my entire life, and if I want to attend church, I somehow manage to arrive there all by myself. So do many people. So can your wife.

Show your wife the scripture that mormonism completely ignores where specific instructions are given about unbelieving spouses.

The scripture says that you better have a darn good reason to leave. Check out 1st Corinthians 7:12 and the verses round about. Check out some bible sites. They will show all the other supporting verses elsewhere in the bible.

I am absolutely positive my ex bishop has no idea these instructions about unbelievers exits. Else they would have instructed her differently.

I went through a few months of what you are talking about until I said enough is enough and brought up the Divorce word. I told her I didn't believe in Jebus or the church although I do believe in God who is far different than the Mormon god. And there is no big deal/'sin' in divorce or splitting up the family. There is no reason to stay together if we are going to argue about anything so silly. After she cried she got the point.

Once the D word surfaced she has been better than me at keeping 'exactly what you are talking about' out of our marriage. Our marriage has never been more honest or better ----- we know why we are together and it isn't because of our shared beliefs in God.

The line that jumped out at me was, "DW asked to know why I choose not to believe the TSCC."

Why you "choose" not to believe? Uh, no. You either believe something, or you don't and you just don't. And of course, in the eyes of us Ex-Mos, you're right not to.

I probably would have said something like, "Look. I'm not mad at you, but I think I'd be justified if I was. You knew that I was not interested in Mormonism when you married me. Now you're basically saying that you don't love me just as I am, but that I need to change in order to be acceptable to you. That's not cool.

How would you like it if I were the one trying to change you? How would you like it if I started telling you all the things which are wrong with Mormonism and asked you to study reasons why it may not be true?

I've respected your religion, now kindly respect my choice not to be involved with it."

I've always said that if you have to change someone in order for them to be acceptable to you, then you've got the wrong person.

After I left Mormonism, my TBM wife tried all sorts of means to guilt me, shame me, and coerce me. I really didn't blame her because I could see that she was playing the role of being a victim. Mormonism encourages this sense of being a victim by linking happiness and exaltation to celestial marriage and LDS-defined worthiness. The notion that I'm faithful to her, a good father, and a provider/nurturer is inconsequential to the cult.

I wish you well! As you process what your wife is saying, please recognize that she's responding the way that she's been programmed to respond by an organization that values allegiance to itself more that any person, marriage, or family. The Boner.

Last night DW apologized for her delivery yesterday morning, but stressed that she believed everything she said. I accepted her apology and told her that I loved her. Things were a little awkward, but after a few minutes of my usual bantering about nothing in particular she was joining in with a few friendly jabs of her own.

The closest we got to our previous conversation was when she asked whether I wanted out of our marriage. I emphatically said, "No! I love you, I'm happy that I married you, and I will never let your religion come between us." It may or may not have been the best or most profound thing to say, but it was from the heart and the first thing that popped into my head. After that, she just nodded and we moved onto other things.

I can't say that everything is back to normal, it isn't, but I'm glad that we can still laugh and talk (about most things, at least, for now). I really, really hate TSCC.

My first thought was that she's under pressure from someone to get you "in", because it does affect her "standing" in TSCC. She was the perfect target for the mishies way back because she was obviously searching for something external to make her happy and the mormon promises *everything*--the only cost being your very existence.

I've been wondering about this, too, the more I think about it. All of her friends, including her sister (their mother must of also told the mishies about her other daughter, who had an alcoholic husband who was in the process of drinking himself to death), are TBM. I have no idea what they are telling her when I'm not around. The next time this comes up, I want to ask if she's feeling pressure from others at church about my no-mo status.

But feel inadequate for not converting loved ones is built into the system. She'd feel this way to an extent just from looking around and seeing that others are full families of members and she hasn't been able to accomplish what they have done.

I think your attendance and support might have given her the idea that you would see the light and it isn't happening which is a big disappointment.

Also, the belief that if Jesus existed and taught as he did, he had some pretty good things to say, but the mormon church adds on so many layers of stuff that not only aren't in the Bible, they're not even in the BoM! So they can't say those "plain and precious things" were removed. And of course, there are so many things in the BoM and the KJ bible that are *exactly and particularly* wrong in those two books and no translations it's incredible.

P.S. If your wife's entire social circle is TBM, she's between a rock and a hard place since she's invested so much into it, and you are more likely a "project".

I say give her the CES letter and THEN she can talk about "testing" the church and whether it is "valid."

http://cesletter.com/

The thing that I find most amazing is that you attend the Mormon Church with her. I can't imagine that there are many nevermos who understands the church and do not want to become members who attend.

It is obvious that you do this for your wife. It shows a level of devotion (?indulgence) that I think very few nevermos could stomach.

While you may view this as a positive demonstration of your devotion to your wife, she may be reading it as some indication (like Summer suggests) that you may eventually convert.

The next time this issue comes up, I would suggest telling your wife that the only reason that you attend with her is so that she doesn't have to attend alone. You are doing it for her. You would otherwise not be there. She should be very clear that it is something that you are doing for her. If your presence is misleading her into thinking that you may eventually become Mormon, you could offer to stop attending to avoid any confusion.

Again, I just think you must be one of the rarest of nevermos. She should be thankful.

So, are you saying that I don't need to clean the chapel today? ;-)

I'm not, but DW is going in with a couple other families this morning.

Thank you for her comments. I have, actually, told DW a number of times I'm only attending so she didn't have to go by herself. I'm also the one who makes sure she gets there on time. I guess there's a thing called "Mormon time" that lags behind real time by about 15 minutes.

Well, I hope TSCC is happy. My TBM DW is talking about leaving me. The first step is to move into another room of our townhouse until she can afford a place of her own. She told me this she headed off to church and said we would talk more when she got back.

I really, really hate TSCC!

Hopefully, she'll figure out she's better off with a loving husband than being alone on the Mormon prowl for a new one. If she finds a Mormon, she's likely to be sorely disappointed in him.

I suggest you only talk to her if she's calm and reasonable. Any theatrics, I suggest you calmly tell her you'll talk when she's feeling more reasonable and loving.

She might have PMS or something else going on that affects her attitude?

Right now it's just silence. I greeted her with a hug and a kiss when she got home. I told her I loved her; she said, "I know."

She went upstairs, changed her clothes, and started lunch. I've small talk, idle banter, and tried to help with lunch, but I've effectively been waved off.

Now, I am just trying to give her space and act as nothing is wrong until she's ready to talk.

Have I mentioned how much I really, really hate TSCC?

Oh gosh, I am so sorry. What foolishness on her part! That was a cruel trick to marry you, thinking that she would convert you. Some women have no idea how to count their blessings.

I hate to say it, but if she continues to speak along these lines when she gets back from church, you will need to consult with an excellent divorce attorney ASAP. This is not to say that you will necessarily divorce, but you *must* be prepared. Do not let your wife blindside you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2016 01:07PM by summer.

dude, MORmONISM is all about slamming people with unreasonable expectations, browbeating and blindsiding people. do NOT underestimate how treacherous of a situation that you are in.
THat is not saying to over react, but you better give very careful consideration as to where you are really standing.