For those not got up on my last post here is the link to it:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1764966

Following our conversation I carefully considered exactly what I would write to her. I was at a loss as to how I should proceed. I have questions, but asking any of them, even without the slightest inclination of aggression they would still come off as accusatory.

So how to proceed? That was the question I came here with, and I got a good response from many posters, but it all came back to the same problem I stumbled on to. No matter how well meaning, or nicely worded I knew it would come across coarse when I brought it to Beth.

Now at this point I feel like I should say something on her behalf. Beth is an amazing girl. She's smart, funny, talented. One of the best writers I've ever met. Incredibly compassionate, kind, and has integrity. We didn't become friends through some twist of fate, we both saw admirable traits in each other, and the fondness grew over time.

So the problem grows. How do I ask her about her beliefs without sounding like I am questioning her as a person of integrity? The short answer is I can't. There is nothing I can say or do that would not make her feel isolated. It's a trap 200 years in the making, and I am not smart enough to defuse it. I wish I was....God I wish I was, but alas I'm not.

Seeing that there was nothing I could say, I decided to back track. I needed to go back to the source of my questions about Joseph Smith and polygamy. I could in no words take her on my journey and show her what I had learned, but I could show her where it began and see if she would take the first steps.

When I started to investigate mormonism I decided I would go through church approved sites to see what they said about themselves. I had seen many groups both religious and secular slandered on the internet, so I wanted to hear their side without being contaminated by opposing, or sometimes referred to as "anti" sources. I know that may be unpopular here, but from an outsider perspective it felt like the right way to go. For every logical argument against mormonism there seems to be seven radical baptist preachers spewing misinformation. So I stuck with church sources.

Long story short I was lead to the essays, which lead me to questions, which lead me to FAIR which lead me to this board. So the light bulb went off when Susan from the board suggested I simply send her the essay. Everything I had to say, all of my questions came from the essay about polygamy in nauvoo.

I did not think it would get much of a reaction from her. I know that sounds awful considering what the essay contains, but I understand that being BIC it would take a lot to shake her. I expected that she would have an answer ready for me almost instantly. A perfect apologetic answer to explain Joseph's behavior...But she's been quiet. She had never even heard of the essay. She read it, but hasn't told me what she thinks. The only comment I made was "This is where my questions started. It might help if you read it to understand" I never asked a question about it, or commented on the material. I simply gave it to her and left the rest to her. And she's been silent ever since.

But she has integrity...She can't just read lines about Joseph marrying a 14 year old and not feel something. She can't read about him threatening to destroy Emma, and not get stirred. There is a serious cognitive dissonance when a decent person reads those essays, and I think she's experiencing it now. She seems angry. Maybe at Joseph Smith for what he did, or at me for bringing it to her attention, or perhaps both. Either way, she didn't simply brush it off like I thought she would, and if she accepted the churches official story I don't think it would be bothering her this much. Like I said she's smart. She sees through double talk pretty quickly, and her compassion wouldn't allow her to let go of what Joseph did to those girls...

I don't think this is a success for our friendship. If anything it puts it at great risk. This whole thing might cause her to have real contempt towards me even though it all came from lds.org. I hope it doesn't, but given that she was raised up in this I can't say I would blame her. I do think this might some time in the future have a good outcome. Perhaps our friendship will end, but she will never be able to forget what she read. I hope she finds her way out on her own journey, but I am having to come to terms with the fact that it might have to happen without me.

I don't know how far the essay reached, but it had a bigger impact than I thought it would.

And I think you handled it well. By telling her it is where YOUR concerns started, with info direct from her church. This is why I strongly suggest people use the direct links. People need to see this is not "anti" information - it is their own church. And you are correct, you can't unring a bell. It will take her time to process but those are the facts.

Now you must show her the rest of the essays. Like the Book of Abraham - not a translation. African Americans and the priesthood. Mountain Meadows Massacre. etc. etc.

When you see that much damning evidence at one time, there's just no doubt it's a fraud.

I've seen non-Mormons come in here and ask why the Essays have not had a greater impact on the members.

This is precisely why. I've always said that I'm pretty sure that they just don't know about them. I'm sure that my friends don't.

Wow, AoH,

Now that it's actually going down I briefly felt a spike of anxiety knowing what could possibly hang in the balance.

One has to wonder if 'Beth' is the sort who will ponder these things on her own, or run to a leader or two and inadvertently out you as a trouble-maker.

Best to you both,

JAR

Many of us on the board started with church approved sources. I personally didn't want to be 'led astray' by bias or lies.

But it didn't take long to see that the church had a lot of explaining to do, and that they really COULD NOT come up with any good explanations.

If she is both honest with herself, AND emotionally ready to follow wherever the facts lead her, she'll find her way out. But do keep in mind that there are some wonderful TBMs out there who are not ready to turn their world upside-down. And if they are not ready, they will find a way to turn a blind eye. I do not necessarily think that is a character flaw. For some people it's a survival instinct more than a choice.

imaworkinonit, I agree that it depends a lot on whether the TBM is emotionally ready to learn the truth.

I am a nevermo with a wonderful TBM wife. I love her very much, though I am frustrated by her blind acceptance of everything TSCC puts out to its members. This is a woman to is very discerning and nobody's fool in all other aspects of her life.

Like AoH, I provided her with links to the LDS essays, as well as, MormonThinks responses to them; and emphasized that that would be the end of my efforts unless she had questions for me after reading them.

A few days later, she interjected, rather out of left field, that she tried reading the links I gave her. However, she could only read a couple paragraphs of each Web page before she started feeling ill; so ill that she had to read her scriptures and pray before she could calm down.

I personally don't understand her reaction since I've always been one to question everything...especially if I'm told it's "gospel." But I love and respect her enough to give her the space I promised when I first directed her to the essays.

"Perhaps our friendship will end, but she will never be able to forget what she read. I hope she finds her way out on her own journey, but I am having to come to terms with the fact that it might have to happen without me.

"I don't know how far the essay reached, but it had a bigger impact than I thought it would."

If your friend does end your relationship, you ought to tell her that it's not because of anything you said or did, but because her church lied to her about its own history.

+++

I know you care for her, but you are also forcing her to choose, like you said, no matter how nicely you do it. I would want her out, too, were I you. I really hope her integrity, and the both of you, win out.

Ace of Hearts Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> So the problem grows. How do I ask her about her
> beliefs without sounding like I am questioning her
> as a person of integrity? The short answer is I
> can't. There is nothing I can say or do that would
> not make her feel isolated. It's a trap 200 years
> in the making, and I am not smart enough to defuse
> it. I wish I was....God I wish I was, but alas I'm
> not.

Very good. Her beliefs are hers not yours. She need not
justify them to anyone. She need not share them with anyone.
Letting her have her beliefs without you directly challenging
them (as opposed to giving her information that might cause her
to alter her beliefs) it the only decent thing to do. It's
basic respect.

That said, feel free to share any and all information with her
and any and all arguments for why you don't accept Mormonism.
But make sure she realizes that in the end her beliefs are hers
and you will gladly let her have them, no matter what they are.

Thanks baura. You understand where I'm coming from :)

We had a follow up conversation recently. I'm not sure when I'll be able to post about it, but it followed that pattern. I let her know how I feel, but made it known I understand her beliefs are her own, and I can't change them, which is good because she understands the same goes for me. We're passing information at this point.

"I let her know how I feel, but made it known I understand her beliefs are her own, and I can't change them, which is good because she understands the same goes for me. We're passing information at this point."

This is perfect.

All of us should take note of this approach. Mormons get VERY defensive when presented with information which contradicts their emotionally invested beliefs. If they are open to hearing the problems and/or our reasons for not believing, THEN BY ALL MEANS TELL THEM! We just have to be careful HOW we tell them. Give them the information but do NOT make them answer for them. Do NOT expect them to agree with your conclusions. Let THEM come to their own conclusions. The evidence speaks for itself. You don't have to argue or push them to agree with you. People don't like being wrong and they don't like defending the indefensible. Allow them the freedom to receive the information without having to answer for it. If you make it easy for them, they are more likely to be open to hear more.

"But make sure she realizes that in the end her beliefs are hers
and you will gladly let her have them, no matter what they are."

This works for a friendship.

It will not work for marriage and any future children. The new Mormon family and children will become part of a new war as before the players in the game was only two, now becomes many who can and will cause damage in the long term.