So as some of you may know I am friends with a mormon. She was raised in it, as was her mother, and her father is a convert.

I care about her a lot, but she knows I do not believe in mormonism. I posted a conversation I had with her regarding polygamy, and the link is here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1746381,1747244#msg-1747244

After that conversation we let things kind of settle. I didn't want to seem pushy, and from what I have learned on this board it is best to let someone come the realization that Joseph Smith was a fraud(and by extension the LDS church) on their own.

I was left wondering if the things I said had an impact on her. I told her I had more questions that I would like to ask her, but again going back to the "let her find out on her own" method I did not go any further. I decided I would keep it that way until she asked me what those questions are, or if she ever asked me. I have heard of many TBMs that will actively block out any information that is not faith promoting. My thinking was if she doesn't ask me, she's not ready, and I need to back off.

She recently asked me....She wants to know what my questions are. In her words "she needs to know what they are"

What am I to make of this? I have a few ideas

1. She could have lined up apologist arguments to support JS and polygamy.

2. She wants to hear me denounce the church, so she can close the door on our friendship. Though I think she would have done this a long time ago.

3. She researched polygamy from a site like FAIR, or the like, and has more questions than answers now. She wants to know what I think of it.

I need help.

Imagine you were faced to face with a loved one, and they promised that they would hear you out. All your doubts, questions and misgivings about the church. They promised not to stop, interrupt, or block you out as you explained your feelings. You had one chance to make your case, and then they would seriously consider what you've told them.

What would you say?

*Disclaimer*

I'm not looking for rants, or coarsely worded combative language. I want to know what you would say to someone you genuinely care about and respect.

Thank you.

>> She recently asked me....She wants to know what my questions are. In her words "she needs to know what they are"

She is asking this because she wants to find you a faithful Mormon answer for them.

Well I think she knows that's not going to happen...Did you read the previous conversation?

I made my position clear.

Yes, I read it. The reason that I responded the way I did is that is a knee-jerk TBM response to someone who is "questioning" the church -- to run to the bishop or some other big-wig, or to FAIR, or the scriptures, or what have you. In the TBM mind-set, if you have questions, then there is a faithful response to them to be had *somewhere.*

You could cut to the chase and just respond, "Why are you curious about my questions? -- Why are you asking about them?"

But having said that, okay...I'll play. Ask her about the Book of Abraham. Ask her why Joseph Smith's translation of the papyri bears NO resemblance to the meaning of the text as determined by scholars. Ask her, if he couldn't translate the BoA correctly, then what makes you think he translated the Golden Plates for the BoM correctly? And if the text for the BoM was only "inspired," and not a literal translation, then why would one need the plates at all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2016 09:58PM by summer.

Wow...Sorry so I totally misread your comment, and I thought you meant she wanted ME to find faithful mormon answers. I was so confused for a second. Like "Uhhh how am I supposed to know those?"

But yes, that makes sense, I'm sure she will do that.

I agree with Summer (and yes, I too, read the conversation).
She wants to find faithful Mormon answers for you. It's what TBM's do.

First of all whenever you decide to have this conversation, good luck! I hope it goes well and that she will listen to all you have to say.

I would start with anything put out there by the church or members. The essays are a good place to start. Any account from the wives of JS or BY should make any woman angry. This might be a stretch but maybe take some of the exit stories from this site***though that may just be considered "anti mormon" rants from bitter sinners..haha!

It's a tough call. I guess stess that you care for her and you are not telling her this stuff to hurt her.

Again, good luck. I hope it goes well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2016 08:02PM by Slumbering Minstrel.

Why is it okay for Joseph Smith to sexually abuse/exploit/rape 14 year old girls, when any other person would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

How could God put the sexual interests of a man in his 30's or 40's above the obvious pain and suffering of a 14 year old girl who is forced to marry this man?

Mormonism is all about Joseph Smith. If we ignore the horrible things that he did to others, we are just saying that neither the victims nor their suffering matter.

You have an opportunity for an open honest discussion.

That is your only option--just to list your questions complete with reference and evidence. Do this in a non confrontational manner which suggests no agenda. An agenda would be pointless anyway because she has to find her own way or it doesn't count. Just list your information the way a biographer would. Read Fawn Brody's No Man Knows My History. It just lists the facts with no axe to grind.

You will then find out from her answers if she is just trying to convert you or if she has reached a point where she is capable of considering looking at the whole picture instead of the tunnel vision that she knows too well.

Just open up and be honest and that is all. No one really ever convinces anyone of anything very often. You have already built a platform for your relationship to be able to do that.

Good luck.

Maybe you could ask her, "if the church wasn't true, how would you know?"

Or you could ask a question related to polygamy. Maybe something like "If you read D and C 132, it says that polygamy was supposed to be to 'raise up seed', and involve virgins. So where are the descendants of JS and his plural wives? And why did he marry women who were already married?" Also "if polygamy was supposedly to take care of widows and unmarried women, why would a man have to MARRY a woman to help take care of her?" Why did section 132 come so many years AFTER JS had started having relationships outside of his marriage, without Emma's knowledge or consent?

Just a caution: I don't think it's a great idea to have an agenda to change someone you care about. I know you want to help. But ultimately, people leave the church if or when it's just not working for them anymore. And if you try to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced, it's going to damage the relationship, and probably push them further into defending their faith.

Also, if you are just posing 'questions', I would let them be questions. Let her look for the answers to what I've asked above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2016 08:28PM by imaworkinonit.

You're right. An agenda would never work. I've accepted that she won't accept what I say now unless she's ready. I'm just hoping sometime down the road she will remember this, and she will find her own way out, but I know that won't happen unless she comes to see it on her own.

but once again I say go to the essays.

Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
Sealed to wife, Emma, 28 May 1843

Why was his legally wedded wife, who he supposedly loved, so far down the list in sealings? Shouldn't she have been the first? Or at least close to it? Why wasn't sealing her to him for the eternities such a low priority? He literally slipped her in between a couple of teens. This is illogical. Why is nothing taught about all these other women? No, they only teach Joe and Emma, A Love Story.

As to the "there were all these women that had to be cared for" RandyJ can prove that is crap. Maybe he will weigh in and throw the info up for you.

Good luck, we are pulling for you!!!!

PS - make sure to use the direct lds.org links.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2016 09:05PM by Susan I/S.

"He literally slipped her in between a couple of teens."

Well, can you blame him? Lots of guys wouldn't mind slipping their wife between a couple of teens.

"As to the 'there were all these women that had to be cared for' RandyJ can prove that is crap. Maybe he will weigh in and throw the info up for you."

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_widows.htm

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1646219,1646998#msg-1646998

I would recommend asking questions a nevermo would know without prompting from us evil apostates.

Why would a loving God only choose one small group of people to save? There are billions of good people in the world

Why do so many mormons and religions condemn people falling in love with people of different faiths? Shouldn't they show love and joy in their happiness?

Why does the Mormon religion hate gays? They are found in every culture. Why are they fighting so hard against love? Why can't they accept people for who they are?

Tell her JS obviously had a way with women. He still has powers of women 180 years later. I'm sure many men would give their teeth to be this popular for nearly 200 years.

Having said that, ask her to choose between you and JS. Eventually it is going to come to that so if she chooses him now, you can move on and not waste any more time on someone who will dump you for a RN eventually.

from your other post - "there was a shortage of men in that era is bogus" - in fact due to JS's horniness, many men had to have no wife because there were in fact more men than women. This is a fact that is easy to verify.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2016 09:37PM by verilyverily.

At this point, I'd let it go. If and when she decides she wants to investigate more, and find out more, she will. You've given her references, I presume.
This is where I think it's best to back off, and leave any discussion about Mormonism alone.
If you are thinking you have some obligation to have her see things the way you do, I'd suggest you forget that notion all together.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At this point, I'd let it go. If and when she
> decides she wants to investigate more, and find
> out more, she will. You've given her references, I
> presume.
> This is where I think it's best to back off, and
> leave any discussion about Mormonism alone.
> If you are thinking you have some obligation to
> have her see things the way you do, I'd suggest
> you forget that notion all together.

I think you missed that fact the DID ask for more. The OP said,

She recently asked me....She wants to know what my questions are. In her words "she needs to know what they are"

I probably wouldn't tell her what any of my questions are unless I was sure of the reason that she wanted to know. Your post indicates that you're not entirely sure what to make of her question. I think I would try to determine exactly what her motives are before I settled on a way to approach the matter or decide on which questions to share, especially since you think this might be your only chance.

I think your idea to plan things just right is smart. I would just ask her another question or two so that you know exactly where she's coming from.

Hi Ace of Hearts, I wouldn't confront her in person with these issues because she will dig in her heals and this will become an uncomfortable situation for the both of you.

I would take my time and carefully pick my issues and how I present them. Done correctly it will force her to look into them to find answers. Cog dis will begin to work on her in her own space and time without you there where she may feel backed into a corner.

I would ask her to give you a few weeks to come up with a list of questions. We can, in the mean time help form a good list. You can start a new thread when this one runs out to keep it going.

Most importantly is there is no angst or disrespect in your communications. It seems you already have this in posession.

Maybe you could ask her what HER questions would be about polygamy.

Considering the fact that SHE ASKED YOU what your questions, you should tell her. She is giving you permission.

This could be the opportunity to share with her the truth.

That being said, be very careful about how you pose the questions and present the evidence. She may be honestly seeking truth but she may also get defensive if she feels like she needs to defend the faith.

I would present the information/questions in a way that doesn't make her defensive or feel like she has to defend herself or the church.

I still think the best resource out there for Mormons who are willing to hear some of the problems is the Letter to a CES Director:

http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

I would print it off. Then write in some of your questions/concerns/opinions on the document.

Then have her read it. IMO this is a VERY powerful document. Except for the truly brainwashed ones, I think this document will open the eyes of most Mormons.

Also print off the church's essays and tell her the church confirms most of what is in that letter. http://mormonessays.com/

Good luck!

AoH,

I've been following your posts from the beginning, so I have a good sense of the backstory between you and 'Beth' and her family. Regrettably, I do not have photographic memory so there are many details that have slipped my mind. Therefore, my approach to trying to assist you with your current question is based more on a general feel for the situation.

Here's the relevant parts of what I understand so far:

She is Mormon and reaching the high end of Mormon marrying age. You are never-mo Christian (as am I), a little older than she is, not currently attached to any church.

The two of you have had many discussions about faith and religion as well as other topics. Your relationship is open and honest. For example, you have communicated clearly that you will never convert.

It is obvious that you value this relationship -- it brings you great joy -- and want to preserve it. The relationship has romantic potential but that is constrained by the faith divide. You have expressed that you could be content with a friendship only. You also adore her family.

You are a person with enormous inner strength as indicated by your extreme patience and thoughtful nature. Well balanced between seriousness and playfulness.

Here are my thoughts:

First of all, I am pleased to see the word 'maybe' in the title of your post placed in parentheses. The tone of your post comes across to me as slightly (only slightly) panicked, and that the notion that you might get only one shot is stressing you. To be effective you must set that notion aside. Relax.

I'm not remembering you ever clearly stating your intentions in this relationship and that makes me wonder if you know this for yourself. Just how clear are you on your own self in this situation? Maybe you're a let's-just-see-where-things-go kind of person, but I also see a very deliberate individual as well.

So the question that looms large for me is this: what do you hope will come out of the next conversation, the one where you put forward your questions? And do you actually have questions, specific questions that you were referring to when you told 'Beth' you had questions, or was that just a way of testing her to see if she would ask and now you have to come up with questions?

Here are my suggestions:

As a Christian, whatever you do, do not put her testimony of Jesus at risk. Even if it's only the Mormon Jesus. If she eventually loses her testimony of Joseph and the church, she will need something to hold on to. (Atheists listening in may insert eye-roll here.)

Perhaps you have done this already, but if not then your questions could be a series of 'how do you know' type questions. How do you know Joseph saw a vision? How do you know God commanded Joseph to enter into polygamy? How do you know the priesthood was restored? How do you know that your feelings are a confirmation of the truth?

If you take any Mormon belief and chase it backward far enough, the ultimate answer is 'because Joseph said so'. If you can ask a bunch of 'how do you know' type questions and use her answers to show that it all goes back to Joseph, then you have a much smaller target than all of Mormonism.

How do you know <fill in the blank>? Because Joseph was a prophet. How do you know Joseph was a prophet. Because he had a vision. How do you know Joseph had a vision? Keep digging until it becomes obvious that all how-do-you-know questions are answered with 'because JS said so.'

Then your next question is 'so, if it all depends on Joseph, who is this guy?' What were you taught about him in your growing up years? What kind of person was he? Etc. As I understand it, Mormons are taught a VERY revisionist, faith-promoting story of the man, a man worthy of praise every bit as much as Mormon Jesus himself.

Let her describe him in detail. Ask questions to get more detail. Recap what she has said. Let the picture of a near-perfect human being emerge.

Once there, then you cycle back to polygamy. Other posters have given you plenty of questions to ask about that topic, and the polygamy essays are a critical piece here. This part of the discussion is driving toward the question 'why were you taught one version of who JS was, and now the church is publishing essays that describe a very different person?'

The current Mormon apologetics answer is that JS was being obedient to God in his treatment of women.

It's important to get as much info on the table about JS's treatment of women as you possibly can that 'Beth' won't or can't dispute.

Which then brings us to the ultimate question: If JS was being obedient to God, then who is God? What kind of person is he that he would command his latter-day prophet to treat women the way JS did?

And, by the way, how do we know that God commanded JS to treat women the way he did? Because JS said so, right?

I have no idea if any of this is helpful to you. I just know that given the same opportunity you have as best I understand it, this is the conversation I would try to have. There's probably two to four hours of material that I've covered here in like 5 to 10 minutes.

You would have to know your stuff and possibly have access to written materials and/or internet during the conversation. The polygamy essays are critical. Don't forget to follow the footnotes.

That's the best I've got for what it's worth.

Regards,

JAR

Thank you this does help. Our "conversation" will be written. I will write out my questions, and she will have time to respond. We're both fair writers (though you wouldn't know from my atrocious grammar here) so we decided that would be the best way.

As for my intentions, I care about her like I care about all my friends. To be clear she is different from my other friends, but even if one of my not so close friends was in this situation, and asked my thoughts on it I would have this conversation with them. Personally I never thought she would ask me what my questions are. I've had so many for so long it's hard to get them all on paper. But I like your approach. I think I will use that.

thank you JAR

You could just put it straight to her, and ask her which it is,1, 2, or 3.

That would put everything on the table and you wouldn't be trying to guess.

It would be extremely interesting to me how a TBM would reply to such a straight forward approach.

I have a slightly different take. I could be mistaken, but if I were in her shoes as a young TBM, I'm not sure she's thinking any of the points that you've listed. I think cognitive dissonance is settling in her.

You're "Ace of Hearts" on this board. You would like to be something more than a friend with this girl. She knows that she likes you and that you like her too. Both of you know that there could be romantic potential but there are some barriers. She is at a point where someone she cares deeply about is juxtaposed to something she cares deeply about. It's unsettling to her and she needs to know why they are in conflict.

She has asked bluntly and would like a blunt answer, albeit with lots of support and care from you. Just a few questions off the top of my head:

1) Why was Joseph Smith married to Fanny Alger (teenage nanny) years before the sealing power was restored? Who would have sealed them? If there was an angelic being, then why would she marry a non-Mormon years later? Why would God want Joseph to marry someone who would disappear from his life once Emma threw her out of the house for her relationship with Joseph? Why would Emma throw her out if it was simply a formality and there was no sex/affection involved? Does that sound like something a loving Heavenlu Father would command?

2) If the purpose of being sealed was eternal families/happiness, then why was Joseph not sealed to Emma until 1843, seven years after the sealing power was restored. Why was he sealed to 24 women before her? Why wasn't Joseph sealed to any of his children? The sealing of a parent to child wasn't performed until after his death.

3) Why does it state in the Articles of Fatith that Mormons believe in following the law of the land and yet polygamy was illegal everywhere it was practiced?

4) If it was so wonderful, why did Joseph and his inner circle lie about it and hide it from their wives? Seems a direct contradiction to his words in the History of the Church where he felt like Paul before King Agrippa and could not deny proclaiming what was right.

5) Why was polyandry ever practiced? Why would Joseph marry women with living, faithful husbands? The words of Henry Jacobs when he lost his wife Zina Huntington to high and mighty Brigham Young are heartbreaking. Why would God take a man who is righteous enough to serve missions away from his wife and kids?

The list could go on and on. Reaffirm that you care about her and that these questions in no way affect your friendship with her.

Best of luck, Ace ;)

If they asked my opinion, that's another matters. It's fine to show interest and try to help when asked.

It's wrong to try to change someone who doesn't think they need to change.

As others have pointed out, any way you read D&C 132 Joseph Smith did not follow it; as a matter of fact he went against what were supposed to be direct commandments from God, even though the official church essay tries to claim that "...He did not give exact instructions on how to obey the commandment." That's BS: the instructions seem very detailed to me.

You can truthfully say studying D&C 132 is confusing since JS, the chosen Prophet of the Restoration, did not do what God told him to do; the church might say "prophets are not perfect" but this was *disobeying* God, and lying about it when it was exposed that he and his inner circle were in on it and also lying about it (i.e. John Taylor telling potential converts in England the church did not practice it when he already had something like 7 wives).

The final fall back position is always "Well, we don't know God's ways" or "It will be explained in the afterlife", but the whole point of the LDS church is that after hundreds of years of apostasy and misunderstanding, God came to Joseph Smith and personally straightened out the confusion.

AoH, several posters have emphasized the value of *gradually* increasing cognitive dissonance. I agree. Resist the temptation to "go for the kill," and come up with that powerful Socratic argument which forces Beth to throw up her hands and acknowledge just "how wrong (she's) been." Let the truth seep into her thinking.

But there is is one, poignant and pointed question you might find it appropriate, at some point, to ask.It is a kind of nuclear "go-for-the-kill" all-or-nothing question, so be prayerful and careful with it. It goes something like this:

"Paul said 'And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.'* He recognized that all of Christian belief and truth stands or falls on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. No Resurrection, forget about it. That's the way I feel about it. It's not merely some encouraging story, it's the foundation of my spiritual truth. If I knew it to be false, just a legend or myth, then I have no choice but to abandon Christianity, and look for something else to explain the Universe, our existence, and all that stuff.

"Mormonism is based on the testimony of Joseph Smith. If it were to be proven false, Beth, would you have the courage to abandon it and seek something else?

Jesus called His followers to forsake their families, if necessary, to follow him. Could you forsake your family if necessary to truly follow Him?"

And keep your discussions with Beth bathed in prayer.

I Cor. 15.14