INTRODUCTION

There appears to be a perplexing tendency in some quarters of this country (which, by the way, my grandfather Ezra Taft was famous in Mormon circles for calling "the Lord's base of operations") to ignore both basic Christian morality and what loyal LDSers claim to be the guidance of their Elohim-directed U.S. Constitution when it comes to accommodating those wishing to enter America's harbor and eventually become American citizens.

It is reasonable, I believe, for those who regard themselves as Christians, constitutionalists or both to open their Bibles (and even their Book of Mormons, if that's what it takes)-- along with cracking a Civics 101 textbook--to what Jesus and the Founders thought and taught about how to meet, greet and treat those who wish to come ashore and eventually earn American citizenship.

It’s important for folks to familiarize themselves with the canon and the Constitution on such matters (since, of course, Mormons claim that the Founders were divinely inspired to craft that document and, as an eternal gift for having done such a fine job, have since been necro-dunked into the eternal lap of the LDS Lord).

Are we good so far? Hope so.

So, at least for the sake of argument if nothing else, let’s look to The Word--as found in both the Bible and the U.S. Constitution--to see what powers and duties are set forth when it comes to dealing with seeking safekeeping in the arms of Lady Liberty.

Put another way, let's find out what would Jesus (Christ), George (Washington} and Thomas (Jefferson) would do.
_____


--The Bible, the Teachings of Jesus and How to Treat Strangers According to What Christians Supposedly Regard as the Law of God

“[It has been argued by some] that the American government should . . . focus [not on helping incoming Muslims but] on helping [incoming] Christians alone. In essence, [it should, the argument goes] perform a religion test to determine who is a Christian and who is a Muslim, and only offer assistance to those that come up Christian. . . .

“What is a Christian? . . .

“. . . [I]n the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7 verse 16, Jesus states, ‘By their fruit, you will know them.’ Another verse claims that fruit to be ‘love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.’

“Jesus, though, to be clear, spelled out exactly what it means to be a Christian, in Matthew 25:35-36. Let's examine it. There, it states, ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“In the verses that followed, Jesus then stated that if you failed to care for the ‘least of these’ around you--the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the needy, the imprisoned--you failed to care for God. . . .

“The Bible spells out very clearly how we are to treat immigrants. It states, ‘When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’ . . .”

(“. . . Push to Exclude Muslim[s] . . . on Basis of Faith Doesn't Sound Very Christian,” by Shaun King, “New York Daily News,” 16 November 2015)
_____


--The Constitution, the Teachings of the Founders and How to Treat Those Coming to America According to the Law of the Land

“. . . [O]ne of the basic premises of the American experiment is that this country does not apply religious tests in establishing programs and policies, regulations and rules. . . . [Yet, assertions have been made] that the United States must block [Muslims] . . . from entering this country, . . . [and] that [they] should be barred, while Christian[s] . . . should be admitted. . . .

“[This] ignores. . . the reality of the American experiment, . . . [amounting to] the sort of scapegoating and fear-mongering that America’s Founders sought to guard against. . . .

“[T]he . . . Constitution establishes that ‘no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States’ [See Article 6, paragraph 3]. This protection against a ‘religious test’ has historically been understood as part of a broad constitutional barrier to policies that discriminate against a particular religion or religions.

“To suggest that this standard might exclude any religion is, by contemporary and historic measures, absurd. Freedom of religion is an essential premise of the American experiment, put in place by founders who understood that the United States was settled by members of religious minorities who fled intolerance. . . . [To] suggest that a religious test be applied to favor some religious [believers] while discriminating against others neglects American history--and American values. And understanding that followers of all religions are entitled to equal protection under the law . . . is the hard-wired reality of the United States.

“The American history of welcoming Christians, Jews, and, yes, Muslims, is as old as the American experiment. This country’s Founders recognized Islam as one of the world’s great religions, and interacted with followers of Islam. There are records dating from as far back as the 16th century of Muslims living in what is now the United States of America.

"The first country to recognize the new United States was the Sultanate of Morocco (the ruler of which, Mohammed ben Abdallah, corresponded with President George Washington).

"John Adams referred in his 1776 essay, ‘Thoughts on Government,’ to the prophet Muhammad as one of many ‘sober inquirers after truth.’

"Thomas Jefferson owned and consulted a copy of George Sale’s English translation of the Koran. . . .

“. . . For a number of years now there has been a concerted effort by sincere if misguided religious zealots . . . [who wish] to redefine the American experiment as a Christian religious endeavor. History does not provide grounding for this fantasy. The Founders of the country were men and women of the Enlightenment who, while surely imperfect in their thoughts and deeds, wisely sought to burst the chains of what Thomas Jefferson referred to as 'monkish ignorance and superstition.’ Many of the Founders embraced faith traditions. But they revolted against the ‘divine right of kings,’ rejected the construct of state-sponsored churches, and wrote a Constitution that guaranteed freedom of religion.

“What Jefferson understood as ‘a wall of separation between Church and State’ (as described in his letter to the Danbury Baptists) remains one of the great contributions of the American experiment to a world that in his time was only beginning to respect the view that ‘religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship.’

“This is not a Christian premise. This is not a Muslim premise. This is an American premise. To deny it is . . . shameful. “

(". . . [U]sing Religious Tests to Bar [Others] from the U.S.,” by John Nichols, "Nation" magazine, 17 November 2015

*****


CONCLUSION: So, Go Ahead and Ask Them

When it comes to handling the plight of strangers desperately searching for safety in a strange but what has been touted by Americans as an historically-beckoning land, we might ask, "What would Jesus do?" And as a corollary, “What would the Founders do?”

The answer are found in the Bible and the Constitution: Welcome them.
_____


(Originally posted by Steve Benson. Posted again by Steve as my final farewell to Rfm)

Sorry I'm so stupid to ask: surely this doesn't mean that Steve Benson is leaving us?

That would make me sad.

Tom in Paris

Sadly that does appear to be the case Tom.

The above well reasoned dissertation is a summarized and sanitized version of Steve's penultimate post, sans the reference to Muslim Santa which apparently proved to be too hot of a political potato for RfM.

We can only speculate as to the underlying whys and wherefores of his decision but one fact stands perfectly clear . . . . .Steve's contributions will be sorely missed by clear thinking exmos of every political stripe.

Happy New Year and bon voyage, my good friend.

/\
..

Anyway I can get the CliffNotes on what happened? Is there an admin post about it?

Thanks Shummy - I missed all that.

I am sad.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 07:41PM by steve benson.

Well reasoned post Steve.

We may disagree on some things, but one thing is undisputed and that is you will be missed in these quarters.

"We're all just travelers passing through," (Anthony Hopkins, Hearts in Atlantis,) it's been a pleasure having made your acquaintance on RfM, and I wish you well in all your future endeavors.

Something isn't right with this post if it is really from Steve. He hasn't edited it, not even once.

^

Thanks for the vigilance, guys, but this was posted by Steve Benson.

I'm the Cabbie, and these are two of my friends who definitely know a troll from a tantrum. Most of the time, anyway; none of us can ever be totally certain (had to say that or I'd be getting an e-mail from Shummy reminding me about a certain "young thing" who was probably a Zoobie @$$hole in a cyber-disguise. Yeah, she "got" me).

I have it on excellent authority that MichaelM's tongue was planted firmly in his cheek when he made this post.

And yes, I really do drive a cab as a day job... No less than John Dehlin asked me if that was the case at the last Exmormon Conference. I gave him a bit of advice on how to do therapy without burning out (I have a lot of experience on both sides of that subject, and I still keep a psychologist or two handy as consultants).

That conference was pretty bizzare in one respect--although the presentations were as good as any I've attended here behind the Zion Curtain. I was going to work, and the dispatcher sent me to the airport for a "hotel call" from the Doubletree... It was actually someone coming to the conference, and I gave her my best Exmo welcome.

She treated me like $#!%, seriously.

Honest Lamanite, I have people here who want me as a cabbie when they come to Planet Utah, and most of the time I have to turn them down (there be Danites about, as you know). There have been a few, however, including a nevermo who posts here as "StillAnon," who've managed a cab ride--he's an awesome tipper!--and one or two who wanted one of my patented "Cab Tours of Zion," and I was been to accomodate them... I'm not cheap, but I can be had.

I'd call that gal an ungrateful %!$&#, but I recognize a poster child for the damage Mormonism can cause, and I didn't take it that personally. So consider this a pat-on-the-mouse-hand for the work you do... You are needed.

BTW, I'm the only one I know of here who managed to get the Benson to change his mind on a subject. That was the Kennedy Assassination, and seriously, Oswald did it alone, from the Texas Schoolbook Depository Window, with the Mannlicher-Carcano... I used every "dirty trick" in my old rehab therapist/schoolteacher's arsenal (the technical term is "cognitive restructuring"), and Steve kicked and screamed and snarled, but he came around. Still thinks he figured things out by himself, however... Probably something in his genealogy; my old friend, the late beloved "Wise Ol' Cabbie," actually had Steve's father as a seminary teacher in the early 60's. He was a former lawyer, BTW, and he once said to me, "You can't be a Benson and not believe in conspiracies."

Finally, for the "Conspiracy Theorists" in the audience, Benson and I were in the same building on November 22, 1963.

Anyway, I make the over/under spread of "four months" before Steve pops back in... I'll throw a free cab ride in if anyone manages to guess the exact number of days...

In the name of my friends, the two mentioned plus wings, msmom, BTC, Cricket, Jesus Smith, rodolfo, Timothy, Simon Southerton, and others...
And a moment of silence for FlattopSF: Please treat them better than Kerry was treated by some here.

SLC

In fact, I did figure out the JFK assassination to my satisfaction without depending on Cabbie's false claim of being the alleged historic pivot point that supposedly led me to change my mind.

I have a hefty personal library collection on the killing of Kennedy that I have amassed over the years which covers a wide spectrum of varying and conflicting points of view. I ultimately concluded from my readings on the subject that Oswald was the lone assassin of JFK based upon a similar (but botched) assassination attempt he made earlier in 1963 which mirrored in modus operandi his successul murder of Kennedy in Dallas a few months later.

Oswald first tried to kill (also in Dallas) a well-known individual by the name of General Walker but failed. In a nutshell, Oswald used the same Mannlicher Carcano rifle that he later employed to kill Kennedy; and he tried killing Walker from behind cover from a relatively short distance by sniper standards (a tactic that he also used against Kennedy). The book that did it for me was the massively-researched tome by Vincent Bugliosi, "Reclaiming History" [New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 2007).

Cabbie, you can certainly try to take credit on whatever matters you wish in an effort to make your stories sound more impressive than they actually are, but you can't take it legitimately.

What a nice P.S. for me to end on. :)



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 04:46AM by steve benson.

I believe the "Internet slang" for what I've done is "pwnd."

I'll try to summon the Wise Ol' Cabbie's shade as well, but way I hear it, he's off giving secret midnight tours of the Temple to Christopher Hitchens...

Note to the Bensonites out there: I was the one who first cited Bugliosi for Steve; I don't own a copy--or any other assassination lore; I read Mark Lane, was unimpressed, and I was sickened by Jim Garrison's witch hunt even though I was sitting on the fence on the matter (being an engineer's kid, I take my time on certain issues).

I did watch the Manson prosecutor on a video, however, and Bugliosi noted that if the Oswald case had gone to trial, it would've been a very short affair with the jury only deliberating for a few hours at most before finding him guilty.

What nailed it for me years before was the late Peter Jenning's careful evaluation of the events and all the "apparently contradictory" claims which he and his crew nailed down and and thoroughly debunked. This was long before I came to RFM, BTW, and for anyone who's interested, there's a pile of "troll corpses" over in the archives of Chris Matthews' "Hardball" site on the subject. Under my byline...

And when we were arguing, I brought up no less than Luis Alvarez, the Nobel laureate who was one of the earliest to view the Zapruder film and addressed the physices of the movement of the President's head when the bullet exited. That one isn't even Einstein stuff; it's right out of Newton. There's no way Dr. Alvarez got it wrong.

Steve threw a tantrum, folks, hollering "it wasn't logical!"

Can't tell if it was his BYU or Texas high school education speaking back then, but as a rocket scientist's kid (Pop--whom Steve has met--reviewed my analysis of Alvarado's science and gave it his patriarchal blessing), I do understand the physics.

Lessee, what else? Well, since I know you'll read this (you remind me of me "going on the wagon" but still hanging out in the same old bars), I would like that first edition of Martha Beck's book returned. That way I can loan this paperbound to someone who may be in need of my "Exmormon missionary" material.

And a friend of mine, a retired teacher/historian who has a really, really good book at the printer right now--deserves an apology for the way you insulted him. He's a former RFM regular--who was the object of an insult you tossed at him on the subject of Christopher Columbus.

I understand what it's like to try to shed old "LDS paradigms," about the Admiral, but I never had any, and those of us raised and educated in actual history recognize that Columbus was the individual who brought knowledge of the New World to the Old, the revisionist $#!% talkers not withstanding. You repeatedly cited a "First Nation Sort" as "gospel," when he was nothing more than another attention seeker with an attitude.

Ah, I just felt the Wise Old Cabbie's essence in the room, BTW. He was a former lawyer--undergrad in history; did a mission to South America--who was thorougly familiar with de las Casas and his hyperbolic claims about Columbus'"excesses" in the treatment of Native Americans in the Caribbean. He regarded de las Casas as a disturbed fanatic, and noted he would've faded into historical obscurity except the British kept "reviving" him as part of their propaganda war against Spain.

I'll shorthand the timeline for you: Columbus died in 1506, 14 years after first making landfall in this hemisphere. Most of the genocide committed by the Spaniards took place long afterwards; Cortez in 1518, and Pizzaro in 1532 come to mind, for example.

Roadkill.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 09:32AM by SL Cabbie.

I own Bugliosi's book, along with many more across the spectrum that you obviously haven't read.

For the record, I was always troubled by the fact that conspiracy-theory enthusiasts claim that what Oswald brought into the Texas School Book Depository on 22 November 1963 wrapped in packing material wasn't a scoped rifle but, rather, curtain rods from his Oak Cliff apartment that he carried in for a friend to measure for his apartment windows. Trouble with that theory is that those curtain rods were never found in the TSBD. Oswald's rifle was, though, complete with a palm print. Little things like that.

Have fun spinning your upcoming tales about driving Bugliosi around town every time he comes into Salt Lake and wants to let you in on more details in his favorite local dives. (I also know how much you like to talk/name-drop about Chris Matthews of MSNBC's "Hardball" fame. He's a nice guy. I had brunch with him at one of our national cartoonist conventions. If I ever happen to see him again, I'll tell him you said hi. Maybe you can join us for a brewski. Just don't let your rear window fall out of your vehicle like it did the time you and I were driving around Salt Lake in broad daylight). :)

And your defense of Columbus is nearly as awe-inspiring as that of Mormon GAs who declare that he was led by the Holy Ghost while slaughtering/enslaving the Natives en route to pinning down the Mormon Promised Land. (Don't give up your night job, Cabbie, although you would have made a great ghost writer for my grandfather).

I'll truly miss you, chuckle head (and good luck in your continuing saga to complete your education).



Edited 16 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 06:43PM by steve benson.

Maybe we can arrange for that by once again meeting at your parents' home, where you first took me to meet them a few years ago. Those were the days, weren't they?

I'd stop while you're behind, Cabbie. Really. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 06:54PM by steve benson.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
ed.
>
> BTW, I'm the only one I know of here who managed
> to get the Benson to change his mind on a subject.
> That was the Kennedy Assassination, and seriously,
> Oswald did it alone, from the Texas Schoolbook
> Depository Window, with the Mannlicher-Carcano...
> I used every "dirty trick" in my old rehab
> therapist/schoolteacher's arsenal (the technical
> term is "cognitive restructuring"), and Steve
> kicked and screamed and snarled, but he came
> around. Still thinks he figured things out by
> himself, however... Probably something in his
> genealogy; my old friend, the late beloved "Wise
> Ol' Cabbie," actually had Steve's father as a
> seminary teacher in the early 60's. He was a
> former lawyer, BTW, and he once said to me, "You
> can't be a Benson and not believe in
> conspiracies."
>
> Finally, for the "Conspiracy Theorists" in the
> audience, Benson and I were in the same building
> on November 22, 1963.
>

>
> SLC

Still quite hard to explain how one of LBJ's men was the one who killed Oswald, silencing the one witness who would have talked.

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/fact-check/fact-check-did-richard-nixon-know-jack-ruby/

I was in 4th grade, Cabbie says he was in 5th. We were students in the same grade school at the time. Cabbie was the first to bring up this salient fact on this board some years ago in a series of his stunning "We-Were-There" revelations on the subject. (It proved to be yet another glaring omission in the Warren Commission Report).

We were all herded into the school cafeteria where principal Dr. John Fitzgerald told us that President Kennedy had been shot. We were then dismissed for the day.

I don't recall having ever met Cabbie at Morningside Elementary School in Salt Lake City but I'll take his word for it that he and I occupied the same lunchroom on 22 November 1963.

Dear god, the plot thickens . . .



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 07:17PM by steve benson.

Nice swan song Steve.

I think even Rodney King would call that an impressive beat down.

Benson, you won't be here for future generations of exmos.
How will they know all the shenanigans that have gone on with LDS, Inc.?
They won't!
That makes me a sad winey.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2015 04:50PM by wine country girl.

The Death Star is imploding.

It's been nice watching it from here. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 07:43PM by steve benson.

So I take it all is forgiven from that time when Steve called you 'whine country girl' all those years ago....amirite? :o)

Let's keep our chins up and carry forth as best we can.

We know Steve would want nothing less.

I got over it.

F-ing A man. . .

"I only mention it because sometimes there's a man... I won't say a hero, 'cause, what's a hero? But sometimes, there's a man. And I'm talkin' about the Dude here. Sometimes, there's a man, well, he's the man for his time and place. He fits right in there."
The Stranger

Take'er easy and abide man

Not good...
Must the many suffer for the sins of the few?
Steve is needed here.

*Sarcasm Warning* It is important that one man should perish than that a lot of newbies should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

Thank you D. Michael Quinn, the Tanners, Dan Vogel (even though he and I never did agree that Joseph Smith was "pious"), and all of you here in this Recovery from Morbidism forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 07:39PM by steve benson.

I hope he will be back.

Dammit Steve !

You are going to leave me here to deal with these anti-science woo woos by myself ?

No. No,no,no. This is like losing Andy Rooney AND Mike Wallace.

NOOOoooooo......

Hi Steve,

I have no idea what exactly is behind your farewell, but I wish you well in all you do.

I feel your provocative and informative participation here has been a great asset.

Most sites will not ever enjoy the participation of such a talented and awarded personality- and an exmormon to boot - as this one has for so long.

I have liked this site for the edgy confrontation and ability say anything. Most everything is layered into politics, especially religion. It is difficult to separate.

The IQ of this place is going to take a serious hit if you don't drop in once in a while. :-)

Thanks for all the fish, Steve. I am glad I got to meet you in person.

You and Deconstructor (the departure of the latter from this board was truly a loss if there ever was one).

Hope to meet you again sometime. The South does not deserve you.

In the meantime, Keep the Brain Alive!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2015 07:26PM by steve benson.