I believe that they are EVIL.

But they might have a narcissistic mental illness.

But when you cause that much harm, and perpetuate sooo many lies...

I don't know...

All those photos of the Fossil 15 helping out at soup kitchens, and filling bags with food for the homeless, and swinging a hammer at habitats for humilities, spoon-feeding the sick in tubercular wards, giving the cashmere jacket off their backs to a homeless person, opening one or more of their homes to someone who needs a place to sleep, slipping various and sundry needy people a sawbuck...

When you take all these acts of charity into account....

I go back and forth on this one. The truth is, I just don't know.
I have a hard time accepting that they don't know all the problems with the history, the evidence, etc. And that they can still actually *believe.*
Then I remember people like my older brother, who is highly educated, a good critical thinker, and mostly a terrific guy -- yet when it comes to the church, he's a blithering, obedient idiot. And self-righteous and arrogant.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether they believe or are just faking it. The harm they cause, and the egos they feed, are the same. If they actually believe, they're idiots. If they don't and are faking it (even if they think they're going 'good' by that), they're dishonest asshats. Either way, they're not doing anything useful -- though I won't call them "evil." I reserve that for those *truly* deserving of the term.

They know the truth about JS, BY, etc. but they rationalize that the 'church' is doing so much good ---- members would not do so much service unless they were brain washed and duped.

However, the main rationalization is if/when a major number of people find out ----- GAs families/themselves may not be safe from the basically conservative, gun carrying Mormons!

I too have been back and forth and I've pretty well decided on evil.

They have all been exposed in varying degrees to facts that can't be reconciled with the picture-perfect image presented to the public. . . . and yet they choose to perpetuate the whole pack of lies.

And that is pure evil.

EVIL!! No question in my mind at all. Satan can pose for pictures at a soup kitchen..... means nothing

It just becomes a way of life for a lot of people. I honestly don't think they wonder if the church is factual. It's a really big club that many people enjoy. Whether or not the events in church history happened like the church says it did, is not ever discussed. And probably not even thought about. Like many others have said before, the idea that they have the truth, are special, and a cut above the rest of the human race, is hugely alluring. It is also that arrogance that is so dang annoying.

How could they be anything other than evil? They know that there are enough funds to invest in a multi billion dollar shopping mall, yet they still feel entitled to 10% of people's disability pensions. EVIL.

They are deliberate con men.

They know the foundational claims of the church are false but, to admit to that, means they go the way of the 'Community of Christ' and lose their $8 billion a year income.

That makes them deliberate fraudsters, no question about it.

ificouldhietokolob wrote "Then I remember people like my older brother, who is highly educated, a good critical thinker, and mostly a terrific guy -- yet when it comes to the church, he's a blithering, obedient idiot. And self-righteous and arrogant."

However, I'll give a pass to his brother not being a deliberate fraudster as he probably assumes the Q15 have more evidence they cannot share, such as actually seeing Christ.

IMO, Monson has never believed and the likes of Oaks and Holland once believed but now know it's false, yet use emotional blackmail, logical fallacies and outright lying to justify the claims.

Professional liats, all of them.

I have to agree with this. I've always wondered if Monson believed and really doubt it looking back. Oaks and Holland know better. There is no way they believe any more. I also wondered if Hinckley believed. I doubted that he did and his actions seemed to confirm that. I don't think Eyring believes. He has been seen laughing during prayers when Monson is called a prophet.

Sad.

I have to agree with the Toms. I have lost the ability to make up justifications for the things that they say and do. I can't imagine how they could be in their position, fully exposed to the truth, and deny it constantly, if they were honorable people.

They take enormous amounts of time and money from the members, and do nothing but demand more. Even if the members are poor, hungry, struggling to feed families or hold their lives together, they say, "Give us more money!". They make every effort to bend the truth to suit their needs. They live to control others. They let their followers suffer and don't blink an eye. They lie openly about anyone whom they dislike (Gays, intellectuals, feminists, etc.). When confronted with clear facts, they just lie some more to try to cover themselves. They abuse the trust that the membership puts in them. I could go on and on.

When I put it all together, I just don't see how that is anything other than evil. Maybe they are not evil on the scale of some dictators and mass murderers. But the fact that there are more evil people in existence doesn't mean that the guys who run TSCC are not also evil.

Evil people are often delusional.

Individuals have choices to get help for their evil and delusional inclinations. Mormons don't get help. Instead they seek out "testimony building" experiences and give their lives over to cultism.

Here's the thing I find disturbing, and that suggests that a little evil, a little self-deception, can go a very long way indeed.

They know damn well that they don't receive miraculous visions or revelations most of the time. So their common practice is to go by whatever they feel, and to classify that as revelation. Its a weird ego/uniqueness/predestination thing that would really offend other people, so they just never talk about it. And they let the members bully each other into pretending that Kimball's childish fantasies, or Benson's obstinate criticism, or Hinckley's greasy equivocations, or Monson's bedtime stories, are divine and perfect.

It's ridiculous. It's also harmful. It makes lots of members feel really guilty. They could instantly stop it if they wanted, but it would just be too hard after that to persuade the members and explain everything they say. So they let the deception continue just to make things easier for themselves.

How evil is that? I don't know.

IMO I think they believe that overall they do good. If something is an advantage for you you have power and wealth I'm sure you can find a way to delude yourself. Even though they must know much of the historical problems They would likely see belonging to the Church would in their minds be an advantage for the members. If you truly want to believe something I expect it's easy to rationalize especially when it's to your advantage.

I keep going back to what Grant Palmer said about meeting with a General Authority.

"He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “his interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.

He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church."

Link: http://mormonthink.com/grant9.htm

So yeah, I tend to think they don't believe. At the very least, they know they're not having meetings with Jesus in the temple to go over policy and doctrine, and yet they're fine with letting the average member believe that they do. I also agree with ificouldhietokolob that it doesn't really matter if they believe or not, because they cause plenty of harm and feed plenty of egos either way.

This question was amongst the first that I asked myself
when I realised (oh so recently) that the church was just man made and its founder an arsehole..
What about the prophet?
What about the 15?
Do they know? Do they know?
It didn't take much thought to realise,
Of course they know!!
Of course
They perpetuate the myth, and let members
Sweat and toil and pay..
Wrong wrong wrong

They know JS used a rock in a hat. They said so themselves. But they are still portraying it as "translating" it from the plates. Here's Eyring and Holland grinning and fully supporting it being misrepresented just weeks after the rock announcement...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865636721/Stay-the-course-Pres-Eyring-urges-LDS-at-Mexico-City-Temple-rededication.html

Look at photo #9. It's a lie and they know it's a lie.

When I clicked your link, it was #2 of 9, and yeah, they look to reek of 'ho ho, ha ha, suckers!!'

The veritable sons of plygs know a 1000 things about polygamy that are nothing but Peter P perfidy and they know it.

Weevil comin out of their ears.

I think they are practicing what George Orwell called doublethink--the capacity for entertaining two conflicting points of view at once.

I seem to lack that capacity, but then again, no one has ever paid me to practice it. As my electronics professor used to say in night school, "anything's possible, given enough money."

Millions of dollars.

Millions of hours.

Large portions of finite lives.

Family relationships.

Educational oportunities.

Praise and affection.

A small list of what they have STOLEN in the past and continue to STEAL today.

By their fruits they shall be known.

Pathetic, lying, evil bastards without exception.

Do you remember a while back when someone came across old home movies, taken of staff at a Nazi concentration camp? They were movies of people joking at a barbeque, having fun, behaving totally normally. People are so complex. They can do evil things and still appear like anyone else. They can totally destroy the lives of those they don't know because they believe they are doing it for a righteous cause. The GA's don't see it as evil but I don't think they believe it's necessarily a righteous cause either, IMO. I think they feel the church does more good for people than harm and that there is nothing to be gained by telling the truth. They would not have an advantage, their families would suffer, all those who truly believe would have their lives destroyed if they were confronted with the truth when they weren't prepared (because way too many TBMs don't think - just obey - and totally define themselves as Mormons above all. It would be like trying to remove DNA from each cell in their body.)

Most everyone I know who has left the church was prepared to face the truth about the church (minus those few inactives I know who think they can't be active because they are somehow unworthy of living Mormon standards.) But most people have moments where they think WTF? Or have been through something that made them willing to listen to the truth about Mormonism. But those TBMs who really want to believe and aren't prepared to hear the truth would implode. So maybe the GAs justify their self-preservation by claiming they are preserving the membership as well. I don't think it does justify what they are doing but I could see some of them having that mindset. Others, though, are just out for themselves in the tradition of Joseph Smith Jr. himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2015 06:36PM by CA girl.

They are deluded. Some are evil and deluded.

There is nothing mysterious about evil. It's lies, greed. And meanness.

They're believers in evil delusions.

I don't have any idea as to who amongst the Q15 believes or not, but I apply their own tests to the organization they run and ChurchCo fails, simple as that.

Everything the Church declares is special or unique to it
generally is anything but that.

Not smoking cigarettes is a good idea. Putting your spouse and family first is a good idea. Being charitable and giving to the unfortunate seems right. However, I don't need ChurchCo to pursue those things do I?

Given that the B of M, B of A, church history, etc really don't stand up to scrutiny, the "tangibles" are all we have left to go by.

So why would I want to support this rigid, expensive and secretive organization that in reality does little to further its own "public" agenda?

Not just laughing at T but them cryin eyes are wide open during the prayers.

Good point.

I think Eyring blatantly practices what they're all doing to some extent. They expect the members to believe and obey, but personally they think they're above all that. They do have their own personal standards, often very rigid but sometimes very loose. But they think the righteousness resides in themselves, not in their faith or obedience. Eyring's behavior could only originate in that sort of narcissistic self-righteousness.

And as I mentioned above, revelation is not something they pray for or struggle to obtain. It's whatever they happen to be thinking at any given moment. It's all about them, and it's really scary. However, due to extreme correlation and revisionism, I think it will never again get as bad as it was under Kimball, that raging torrent of autistic self-righteousness. Only time will tell if I'm right.

Are the brethren believers, delusional, or evil?

We can toss out "evil." I don't believe that the fantastical definition of "evil" exists. Evil exists only as a construct, a condemnation for what the rest of our society or tribes will not tolerate from us or what an individual will not tolerate in himself. When any natural empathy for others can be drowned in justification, without limit to this power, I would call this evil, but it must also be understood that they could be goodd people as well, only deluded or bullied into compliance.

Some of the most "evil" nations and organizations that ever existed were "loyal," "true," "faithful" and "good" within their own moral frame of reference. But is that a defense? Does the Nuremberg defense hold any validity?—you were simply being true and faithful to the values you hold and the institutions you owe your loyalty towards, and this justifies assisting them in killing innocent people, people who have done no wrong but emir mere existence offend some perception you have of what "ought to be" — are you good or are you evil?

To be honest, I don't know. It seems so obvious when we use extreme examples like communism and fascism, but when ideologies don't have body counts to measure them by, it becomes harder to judge them — are they evil or are our beliefs just different? — and to convince others these institutions and belief systems ought to be judged as you judge them. Should we even deem them "evil" at all? Or are our beliefs just different? Forcing someone to violate their religious convictions can do more damage to them psychologically than allowing their beliefs to take their course, but when they are doing psychological damage indirectly to others too... It's hard, because those under potent religious spells can only be reasoned with so far before they start to mark and avoid people like you or I. The only time we seem to be able to intercede without doubting ourselves is when clear physical harm is being done to the undoubtedly innocent and defenseless.

Abuse is rampant in FLDS communities, but at the same time, we have alienated them and pushed them into their highly exclusive and secretive lifestyles because we wouldn't just let them be polygamous, and now we can hardly help any those kids who need the basic psychological necessities of life and the cult can't provide it, or makes it worse. That isn't to justify these cults at what they do, but reality is morally slippery like this. Rarely is a conflict between good and evil. Rather, virtues have to measured and weighed against each other. For instance, we often have to decide whether it is better to violate religious freedom or hearken to the weeping children. Collectively, we can't seem to justify or forgive ourselves no matter what we do or don't do in some explosive issues.

Are the Brethren evil? No, not in the way the word seems to suggest, but don't get me wrong: they have lied to us before and served interests other than what promoted the best physical and psychological wellbeing of their own flock whom they are called to serve. When we say "lying for the Lord," we're not talking about fanatical, pathological liars or men interested only in their own selfish service. No, we are talking about the gospel being so important to them that when evidence or situations arise that call into the question the church's current direction, they almost can't help themselves but omit the devil's details in their writings and in their sermons, even though it's the truth, and influence the members to trust them when they say that certain places are forbidden. And they omit details and give false impressions about it because they KNOW it will affect people's decision-making process about their loyalty to the church. Anything that leads people away from the church is, from their perception, evil by definition, even though they are hiding a much more complicated reality behind their correlated message.

Ironically, in their own words they described this justification in their polygamy essay. The church "issued carefully worded denials" that implied a falsehood but explicitly told the truth, leaving "open the possibility" that the accusations being denied were, in essence, true. FAIRmormon runs on this type of self-justification like a car needs gas. By comparison, Jeramy Runnell's CESletter is the plainest document that Providence ever caused to be written on the digital Mormon stage. It becomes so ironic, because the passages from scripture are endless about how the "wicked" endlessly justify themselves against the evident need for change that has been so plainly delivered to them by whatever means the scriptures deem "plain." And yet the Mormons turn around and tell us when it comes to their own schemes that they need to be accepted over the plain truth as our own eyes and minds perceive it. What ought to matter is the right and freedom, and the mutual respect for such between all differing parties, to follow our own ways and our own convictions, but even this must be balanced against the principle ahphainst violating other's rights.

The world is a morally messy place. This to me is evidence there is No One up in heaven in charge of it all, at least no one who cares about the things we wished he would care about. Whatever is up in heaven doesn't seem to matter, though, because we are quite capable of attributing to God whatever we need him to say to suit our emotional agendas and need for closure on having a "complete" world view and a sense of control over what to expect our of life, and then we do all we can to make the illusion real in our lived experiences and in those of our children.

Good? Evil? It's a matter of perspective, but... some moral judgements are clearly more beneficial for the general wellbeing of humanity than others. That should provide some consolation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2015 12:21AM by Cold-Dodger.

One more thing I can add is that Mormonism can be shown to have violated its own ethics and its own values. When apologists trivialize these things or try to make them disappear or reverse the blame (there's a hundred tactics to use), they prove that Mormonism does not have the consistency it advertises itself upon, the very thing it boasts makes it better than all other religions.

I don't think they are evil. I think they actually believe that all their thoughts (or at least most) are inspired. So, I think they are delusional. In my opinion, they probably progressively gained the belief that they think inspired thoughts over time as they go from calling to calling. The accolaides and trappings of positions of authority probably lead to a feed-back loop of self-congratulation and false belief in one's fake spiritual power. Anyway, I grew up around these idiots and most seemed to suffer from this over-inflated noble and greatness crap that they attributed to themselves.

That's for sure. As others have stated, there is no doubt in my mind that they top 12 are in the game due to some form of blackmail, such as the $1 million they are offered, along with other perks. And who knows what else they're threatened with?

In such a situation, unfortunately, most people would "go along to get along." Esp. if they felt their homes, family and lives were at stake.

I tend to think they have some other means of bribery such as compromising photos etc. How else would so many men year after year stick with an org that they know is not "true"?