When I was young my family was very poor. My father actually lived part of his childhood in a house with a dirt floor. When he became bishop he was offered a white collar job out of the blue that required a degree which he did not have. The company waived the degree requirement because he was impressive--had street smarts and was extremely likable.

I have never forgotten that my mother said at the time that Heavenly Father had "blessed him with the job because it wouldn't do to have a bishop who was only a worker in overalls."

This all came back to me when I was reading the "Upper Crust Mormon" thread and I was struck by the fact that Mormons always consider that the most righteous will be rewarded monetarily. I had always thought we were different than that as Mormons. I treasured the simplicity and the humbleness of what I thought was my one true church. It made me want to quote this excerpt about someone sitting waiting for their Court of Love to begin:


"Before I was brought into the council room, I sat in the long hallway jutting out at a right angle from the foyer that was the entrance to the chapel. The ward buildings were all pretty much the same worldwide. Same as the one I had helped my father build. Same painted cinderblock walls; cheap, prefabricated brown metal doors and windows; and industrial carpeting. It could have just as easily been a government annex building or a tax preparer’s office if you were judging the furnishings. Nothing about it said God, really. Ironically, I was suddenly at odds with the lifeless, generic quality of this building precisely because I had once felt reverence for this type of dowdy simplicity. I had been so sure that these now-sterile chapels were of God and Jesus specifically because they were not the grandiose, gold-laden cathedrals with their finery that we had been taught contempt for. No stained-glass ceilings and intricate arches that had taken hundreds of years to construct. No, I had always felt these humble finishes were simply pure in the way of Jesus. They were the edificial equivalent of a simple robe and sandals.

"Our (Mormon) Jesus was the one who abhorred the pomp and circumstance and embroidered remnants of the Catholics.

“And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Mathew 19:24


Didn’t Jesus cast the moneychangers who bought and sold out of the temple? This was our lesson from the New Testament. Jesus eschewed riches. His house should be devoid of lucre and nourish the people instead. That was the standard by which we proved to ourselves that we were on the right track.

We were the meek. We were the lambs with no worldly goods. We were pure. We were Mormon. We had cinderblock!


Of course, now I know that as Mormons, we were also the ones with the vast land holdings worldwide, cattle ranches, pineapple farms covering nearly an entire island, major stock in major corporations, and that eventually we would build a several-billion-dollar shopping mall that would house all the iniquity that we supposedly despised. The multi-billion-dollar City Creek Mall is not the edificial equivalent of a simple robe and sandals. That is for sure. And at the opening of this mall, the Mormon prophet would utter the words that would finally be his signature: “Let’s go shopping!”

I laughed then, realizing this simple garb we had worn, the white shirt and ties, the frumpy, modest dress, bore more arrogance woven into those threads than any papal robe and crown and staff and gold leafed, overly ornate filigree on every cathedral wall combined. It was some odd kind of reverse religious discrimination. We had taken humility full circle right back to arrogance. We were disguising our hypocrisy in the bland and as such became more "wolf in sheep's clothing" and therefore more disingenuous than all the gilt-and-stained-glass-type churches in the world put together.

It is quite difficult to think of "Let's go shopping" in the same category as "Love one another."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2015 01:03PM by blueorchid.

blueorchid: Let me take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy your posts. So much elegance, poetry, wisdom and pure common sense! Also good humour.

As for this post, wow. Can you tell us the source of the excerpt you have quoted? I'd like to read more. The prose is as soaring as the (non-mo) windows and arches of which the writer speaks.

Is it going to turn out to be you?

Wow. I am sincerely honored by your words. And right back at you.

Yes. The words are all mine from something I wrote but would prefer not to connect myself to here on the forum at this time. If you would like to know the source please contact me through admin. I would love it if you read it all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2015 01:11PM by blueorchid.

Very powerful piece, Blueorchid.

"When" I come to the States - one day - you are among the many people on this board who I would love to meet.

Thanks for what you write.

Tom in Paris

If anyone wants to tear up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA-SIJ_QoXU

L'Hymne à l'Amour (by Jacques Brel) sung by a muslim (on the left, Camelia Jordana, a star, IMO), a Breton Catholic (Nolwenn Leroy, actually half-Kabyle) and a Franco-Isaeli Jew (I believe), Yaël Naïm.

"When love is all you have...", the song begins - but its answer is "You have the whole world".

Allow me to wish you all the whole world ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2015 04:22PM by Soft Machine.

Powerful too, TinP. Today is a crying-type day for me. A lot of sadness swirling around. The topics are not for this board but the human nature, the pain, the loss certainly resonate.

"Allow me to wish you all the whole world"

So many poets and lyrical writers on this board. We are definitely richer for your presence.

Thank you SoftMachine. Perhaps I'll make it to Paris before you make it here and I'll meet you then. All the best to you and the whole country . . .and the whole world.

blueorchid: "I am sincerely honored by your words. And right back at you."

The honour, as they say, is all mine, blue.

I definitely want to read the entire essay. I will reach out to you via Admin.

Many thanks.

There is a sentiment with the tbm's at the pulpit at church, and at the pulpit called fakebook, that if you're more righteous the lord will bless you more. Most expotulations are of the form look how wonderful i am because of the "grandkids", because of my "sweet spirit of a wife", because of my "white collar job". How many laborers does it take for 'one' white collar management job? I guess the lord loves that one person more than all the laborers? That's what tbms usually say or imply at the pulpit...

I heard one lady say god had blessed her so well because she has a job where she "doesn't have to work very hard" and "makes a lot of money without many hours of work."

If your poor god doesn't love you (with tbms, that is).

The technically correct term for the pulpit in a Mormon Church is "Rameumptum." It is discussed in some detail in Mormon Scripture - Alma 31:8-23

There are a three verses that appear to be of particular interest relative to this thread.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers.

23 Now, after the people had all offered up thanks after this manner, they returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand, to offer up thanks after their manner.

I always loved the word "rameumpton.'

Great post, blueorchid. There's a lot of penetrating thought in it, and I enjoyed reading it. My TBM father used to speak of the wealthy as "worldly" and disconnected from all that is spiritual. Rich folks thought themselves too good for Jesus and Joseph, Dad said. He did this even as he schemed and connived to build wealth for himself. He sold out his own offspring for financial increase and hid his money in diverse bank accounts.

Now he sits on a pile in St. George, and his sons won't speak to him. He does have a couple of frightened daughters living in his investment houses, but he hasn't a single loyal priesthood son. Not one.

Thanks for sharing your epiphany with us, blue. I can tell you from experience that you have discovered a basic truth in human nature.

Very thought-provoking, blueorchid. I enjoyed reading it.

if a person reads The Teachings of Gordon BS Hinckley, they will find how Gordon talks about how THE (MORmON) gospel brings the blessings of prosperity. One of the great examples that Gordon cited was some Latter day Saintan converts in Mexico. They were poor chicken farmers, but after they joined THE (MORmON) church they became more prosperous recycling agents (junk collectors and garbage sifters). Its such an impressive message, a person would definitely want to pay 24.99 for the Deseret book that contained it !!!!!

what a marvelous work and a wonder that these MORmON con men can go on stealing from others in the name of their lower head Lord MORmON Jesus, using the money they steal to set themselves up as examples/ models of proper living, prosperity, and righteousness. There is nothing like the MORmON Gospel in action. .....Can they sell you a secret unmentionable handshake for 10 per cent of your gross income? Its well worth it, just ask them!!!

The last RS President I knew before leaving was quite well to do. She always had beautiful, very feminine suits to wear to church, her hair and nails - everything immaculate. They had a really nice, new home, all done up very tastefully.

I remember that she spoke to me once of being in fear of her husband dying, then added that she'd insisted that he get a 1 million dollar life insurance policy.

She was a nice person, though, bright and very organized. I just remember feeling kind of surprised that she had so much fear about being able to maintain her lifestyle.

The BoM is all about God prospering the faithful. That makes sense, since prior to the founding of Mormonism, the Smith family had been involved in various fringe beliefs that maintained there was a secret back door to God and that once you had access, God was obliged to grant your wishes.

The Giver of all life has proclaimed, “All things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal.” Dieter Dildorf


So as I read that, it is all blended together in TSCC. You can be rich by being super spiritual.

And another quote from Elder Dildorf - "Unfortunately, there are those who overlook the temporal because they consider it less important."

So getting rich is no less as important as spiritual things to being a good mormon.

L Tom Petty Wrote:
-----------------------------------
>
>
> So getting rich is no less
> as important as spiritual
> things to being a good mormon.

Excellent point! And if you aren't either, you can always fake them. After all, mormons have become all about appearances.

TSCC takes the prosperity gospel to a twisted extreme. The most admired family in my ward was headed up by a senior executive for a large corporation. Their daughters were the most admired. Everyone sought their company. Exactly the kind of people that Jesus would have hung out with. You know.

Heard in many a ward, "Yeah, well, if they're so righteous, why ain't they rich?"

I've made at least a few posts, Celeste, on this. You're on to something. At the core of the various permutations of the Prosperity Gospel (and there are many) is a kind of magickal (sic) thinking: that if you are, are are doing, something that is spiritually "right," then God/Heaven/the gods/some cosmic force/whatever will "reward" you with blessings. Witchcraft and voodoo ("juju") are the crudest forms of this, metaphysics is the highest, with various forms of shamanism, Pentacostalism, etc. in between.

In LDS, conspicuous morality and ecclesiastical conformity are the "spiritual coin of the realm," if I may coin a term, which people expect to translate into prosperity and health. (Let's not overlook the "health" aspects of the "health & wealth gospel."

If I may, I will take exception with you about Jesus' social life. He hung out with any- and everybody, rich and poor, righteous and sinner alike.* His arguments were not against wealth, per se, but its misuse and its seductive and corrupting nature. Nor was he dismissive of sin with easy or automatic forgiveness; rather, he opposed the hypocrisy of prideful, conspicuous morality.

*Presented best by Luke.

When I was a beehive, the young womens were suppose to knock on ward members houses to solicit funds for a project. Not long after that, we were again asked to solicit the ward for money. The SL Temple president at the time was in our ward. When I came to the house a second time, the temple matron said something like" You were just here asking for money. We have given enough". I was so embarrassed. Some young women's leader hadn't thought this through. But I remember feeling like a begger in front of these wealthy people. Frankly, I don't blame them. It was pretty annoying.

You know what would solve a lot of the economic problems we have today? People abstaining from having kids they know they cannot afford to raise and take care of until said kids reach adulthood themselves.

Instead we have people blabbering about "oh well god wants us to have kids so if we have kids he will provide blah blah blah."

Nope, sorry, god ain't raining down Benjamin's on your home just because you popped one out. Can't afford to sustain a kid's life for 18 years? Then you, the potential kid, and the rest of society is better off if don't have one.

/rant

He kicked them out because they were in the way for the new Cheesecake Factory that needed to go in the temple.

When Jesus stood before Pilate and told him this, Pilate found him to be blameless and said so in front of the counsel. Outraged, the counsel demanded Jesus's crucifixion. Pilate plead with the Jewish leaders to at least give the Cheesecake Factory a try, but the counsel would have none of it.

To put a mediocre chain restaurant with mostly non kosher meals was ubsurd, and the counsel demanded that if a quasi-Italian restaurant must be put in the Temple could it at least be a maccaroni grille where the counsel could draw on the table "cloths" with crayons?

Pilate agreed, but Jesus spake unto them saying, "I would rather die than eat at a maccaroni grille. Give me cheesecake, or give me death!"

The counsel demanded that Jesus be sacrificed on the cross so that all mankind would know - this is what happens when you fight over which chain restaurant gets put in God's House.

thinking your post was like the others and I hadn't read a sentence before I had to check who the author was!!! Love this post.

Also love your post, blueorchid.

I remember driving up to a more wealthy neighborhood here in Cache Valley and took note of the much nicer stake center that had just been built there compared to the ones for us in the lowly neighborhoods. I had never noticed that before. It shocked me at the time. It was before I had finally made my journey out, but I was on my way.

After the Franchise Wars, all restaurants will be Taco Bell.

When people prosper ( kind of a funny term ) or in non-biblical terms, are economically solvent, it is because they have earned more than they have spent. Whether or not they came by that money honestly, is for another discussion.

Some people inherit, rather than earn, their wealth.

The stake I left years ago was practically run by one family. You guessed it, they were loaded. I was in the ward with them, and long story short, apparently God saw fit to have these family members in high places within the ward. And, some of them were nuts. Which really doesn't matter as long as you have a whole lot of money.

A lot of religions start out with the stated intention of serving the poor but wind up, as the Mormon church has, serving the wealthy. The reason is that religious leaders, even those with the best motives, discover they cannot do the kind of work they wish to do without money. And, to get the money, they must ask the rich for it. The wealthy agree to donate the money with one condition: church leadership must stop preaching against them, and the religious leaders agree, knowing they will not be able to get the needed funds any other way. In the Roman Catholic church, Pope Francis is slowly learning this lesson. The Mormon church, of course, figured this out a long time ago and now those wealthy people essentially run it with the poor being basically shut out and told to act like servants for the wealthy and to either "go and earn your own money" or "wait your turn."

I am very much reminded of George Orwell's novel, Animal Farm. While Mr. Orwell was writing his message about Communists and capitalists, one could also read into the novel a message about religious leaders and the broader society. Think about the novel's last scene where the pigs are standing on their hind legs and negotiating with their human counterparts. And the other animals, standing outside the window and looking at them, can't tell the two apart. So it is with Mormon church leaders and the wealthy. You really can't tell the two groups apart anymore when they come together to negotiate, and the wealthy have basically taken over the LDS church (not that the church was any good before the wealthy took over).

An apt comparison.

I actually think that Joseph Smith created the LDS Church totally with the idea of making money from it - right from the get go.

Sekyr:
I agree with the proviso that he wanted sex as well.

blindguy Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>The reason is that religious leaders, even those with the best motives, discover they cannot do the kind of work they wish to do without money.


Exactly. "...they wish to do..." is the operative phrase.

The work they wish to do is not scriptural. They wish to plant themselves in one place, support their own family from tithes, in itself a system of monetary fleecing far removed from the original tithing events.

"Go ye forth and prosper to feather ye own nest; take ye tithes also from the poor and downtrodden, for they behold ye with fear, and shalt surely give. Abide ye the counsel of the rich of property and cattle and servants, for therein lay my father's palace on earth, where ye shall surely dwell. Be ye seen to make giving of small sums and in public places to the poor and downtrodden, for this is the path to glory."


If he has his palm up while preaching and praying, you can be sure you're looking at a wolf. They don't even pretend to have a sliding scale as "generous" as the IRS.

There is status in being a Mormon along the Wasatch front. Only when you live outside the morridor do you realize it isn't very cool to be a Mormon

According to Gordon Hinckley, opposing Mormonism/The Prophet Joseph Smith is not good for either your wealth or health.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/04/the-greatest-miracle-in-human-history?lang=eng

Hinckley - in this link - shows how Thomas Ford (Governor of Illinois during the Nauvoo troubles. Hinckley believes Ford to be fully responsible for Smith's murder.) went from being the Governor of Illinois to poverty and death within 6 years of Smith's death.

Ford's wife preceded him in death just 3 weeks to his own, orphaning his children and Hinckley suggests that Ford's curse carried onto them, the next generation. Some of them died young.

Hinckley of course is whack, and he should be vicariously reminded of Smith's legacy:

1. Smith's church impoverished themselves by leaving the best US agriculture land for a desert wilderness in Mexican territory.

2. Early Utah Mormons suffered malnutrition. In fact "Fast Sunday" was instituted in Utah, and as a way to consume fewer calories.

3. Pioneer Mormons and their families excommunicated themselves from education and health benefits - living in civilization. Early Mormon leaders were not educated, up to and including Heber Grant. My GGF only finished the 9th grade, and was later accepted to a midwest university only because of his inherent intelligence and the kindness of a former Mormon professor who proctored him.

4. Smith's church was disenfranchised by the US Govt.

5. Smith's Mormon gospel - via polygamy and tithing - resulted in the poverty and heartbreak of many families, and the marginalization of women in particular. Nauvoo/Smith Mormonism still haunts certain portions of Utah and the US.

5. One of Joseph Smith's sons was institutionalized because of mental illness. Using Hinckley's logic, the Smith line was cursed.

6. Unlike other Churches, the US Govt mobilized it's Army against it due to their disdain of US law. It was the largest Army mobilization since the Mexican War.

7. After leaving the US, The Church desperately wanted to become a state. It was only after The Church abandoned its most beloved doctrines, and realizing that Jesus was not going to return did it become wealthy.