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Thank you for your interest in chatting with a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now chatting with Liza & Meg
M
Welcome to chat!
11:59 AM

L
How are you today?
11:59 AM

P
Good Morning Meg
11:59 AM
I'm fine thank you Liza

M
What brings you to chat today?
12:00 PM

P
Well I read a national new story about the Mormons the other day, and I guess I had a few clarifying questions I wanted to ask if that's ok
12:00 PM

M
That's perfect! Which question do you have first?
12:01 PM

L
We will do the best we can to answer your questions.
12:01 PM

P
I guess I'm beginning to wonder how important ordinances are to your religion. Ordinances like baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. Those are important to you correct?
12:02 PM

L
Yes they are covenants or promises we make with God and as we make them, He promises us blessings in return.
12:03 PM

P
Would you use the word "essential" to describe how important they are to God's plan?
12:03 PM

L
Yes are you familiar with God's Plan for us?
12:04 PM

M
God's Plan for us is also referred to as the Plan of Salvation or Plan of Happiness.
12:04 PM

P
How are ordinances such as those two I mentioned, essential? Are they needed in order to get to heaven? Are they needed to have peace in this life?
12:04 PM

M
In the scriptures we read about baptism and confirmation being essential. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (St. John 3:5, KJV).
12:07 PM

P
Oh excellent, thanks Meg
12:07 PM
Why do you perform these ordinances for children as young as 8 years old?

L
We are looking for a scriptural reference for you
12:10 PM
But essentially at the age of eight it is when it has been revealed to the prophet that at that time is when we know right from wrong.
12:12 PM

M
Have you heard of the Prophet Joseph Smith?
12:12 PM
In 1831, he prayed and received this revelation in response, "And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands."
12:13 PM

L
It can be found in the Doctrine and Covenants, a book of compiled revelations to the first prophets in the latter days.
12:15 PM

P
I'm guessing it would be greatly beneficial to receive those ordinances while you are young. Especially the Holy Spirit, since often times the younger years can be very difficult to learn how to make correct choices, yes?
12:16 PM

M
Yes, I have found having the the ordinance of confirmation (having the gift of the Holy Ghost) has really helped me in my life.
12:17 PM

P
If you could, would you prefer every child to grow up with that gift? Based on your experience?
12:17 PM

L
It's something that is important to our salvation. Truthfully I don't know if I learned to appreciate it till later on in my life. At the age of eight I knew that it was something that was good and I wanted to be Baptized and have the Holy Ghost. But it wasn't until later on that I think I fully understood the blessings.
12:21 PM

P
So you could have grown up just fine without the gift of the Holy Spirit?
12:22 PM

M
Each of us has the Light of Christ with us from birth on. So, we each are able to receive glimpses of the Holy Spirit's influence before we receive this divine gift. I can't say that I would be the same person I am today without this ordinance in my life at a young age, but we are all different and unique in how we grow up and live our lives.
12:25 PM

P
Thank you for using scriptural evidence to assert your claims. This is good. You used scripture to show that baptism/Gift of the Holy Spirit is essential to salvation. You also used scripture to show that it is acceptable/best when a child receives these ordinances when they are 8 years old (in scripture by Joseph Smith)
12:27 PM
Please show me the scriptural evidence for denying these ordinances to children of Same-Sex parents

L
Something else that is very sacred to God's plan is Families. The changes that have been made is to protect that principle of the Family. we are looking for a scripture for you. But in the mean time have you read the articles on lds.org?
12:31 PM
https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-says-handbook-changes-regarding-same-sex-marriages-help-protect-children?lang=eng

P
Great, I will await the scripture you have for me
12:32 PM

L
here is a link of an interview that may help you to understand
12:33 PM

P
I'm not so much concerned with interviews/articles, I'm more interested in scripture evidences that this policy of denying essential saving ordinances to innocent children is part of God's plan
12:34 PM

M
As I search for a scripture that will help you understand this policy, may we ask you a question or two?
12:35 PM

P
If it does not deviate from the topic at hand, yes
12:35 PM

L
Do you believe in modern revelation?
12:36 PM

P
I'm sorry, I think that question deviates from the topic at hand
12:36 PM

M
Honestly, we believe that God has called a prophet to lead and guide us today. That includes being able to pray about the revelations they receive and then give to us to learn and grow in the ways of the Lord. In Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 38, we are taught about God's prophets and servants. We read, "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same"(emphasis added).
12:40 PM

P
So in absence of scripture, you rely on the thoughts and pronouncements of church leaders?
12:41 PM

M
If you believed in modern revelation and in modern prophets, you would understand that the things that the Prophet says are scripture. The Prophets we have in these days, are called of God as much as Adam, Moses, Abraham and Noah, and so many more.
You can pray to know of these things for yourself.
12:45 PM

L
In many places, within all books of scripture, we are encouraged to ask God when we are unsure of something or if we want to know truth. One of these instances is found in James 1:5
12:46 PM

P
I mean this in total respect, but that sounds less like a church and more like a cult
12:46 PM
Is that why people sometimes use that term to describe the Latter-day Saints?

M
No, we are sorry that you are confused. We do not blindly follow our church leaders. That is why we pray to find out for ourselves.
12:47 PM
As missionaries, that is what we are here to invite people to do, to pray to receive your own answers from God.

P
With respect Meg, I asked for scriptural evidence that it is ok to deny saving ordinances to children of same-sex parents. And got none. Then I was told that if a leader makes a pronouncement, it is the same as scripture. And you used an interview/article to justify the policy. Have you taken the time to really think about the policy? To work it out in your mind? Have you received convincing evidence from God that this policy is in fact from Him?
12:49 PM
In this instance, my perception is that you are sort of blindly following your leaders on this one
And coming from an outsider such as myself....makes me VERY wary about further investigating your church
I say this all with respect, mind you
I don't know ladies....I get a bad feeling about this.
12:51 PM
Thank you for your time today, I greatly appreciate it

M
Thank you for time, we appreciate you coming to chat with us today.
12:51 PM
I know that God lives, that He loves all of His children and that He wants us to find joy in this life.

P
(except children of same-sex couples)
12:52 PM
:)

M
No, that is not true.
12:52 PM
He still loves all of His children. He loves them so much, that whatever their circumstances might be, He provides a way for them to be happy.

L
I too know that God lives and loves His children, no matter what circumstances they're in. I also know that the modern revelations our prophet and apostles have received with regards to children of same-sex marriage is an expression of God's love for His children.
12:55 PM

P
^how do you know?
12:55 PM

L
Through sincere prayer and obedience. James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth unto all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
12:57 PM

P
Bless your heart. But....more importantly...bless the hearts of the children who are excluded from saving ordinances

Well done. Thanks for posting.

Good job.... they make me sick but thanks for sharing.

Nailed it! Seriously, well done :)

Boom.

Like good little "commies" they are clearly "repeating the party line".

It reminds me of similar conversations I have had with tech support groups. You say a key word and they look up the key word in their coaching manual. They then quote the verbiage adjacent to the key word whether it actually has anything to do with your particular problem or not. Often, the tech support person (usually based in a foreign country) does not have a basic understanding of the issues involved.

Maybe in the interview link they gave you the interviewee is speaking as a man.

God damn! That was disgusting to read. Can't say it enough, they are a cult. It's not that certain children aren't allowed to be baptized (I wish all children would not be baptized), but that they justify the hate like it is nothing to them, just a way God shows love to his children. Hate is God's way of showing his children he loves them. Makes me want to barf!

I guess God loved Black people so much that he didn't want them to "hold" the priesthood.

So did he love them more or less after the 1978 pronouncement?

He's a tricky feller, that elohim.

;)

No kidding. A BYU religion professor, Randy Bott, said this back in 2012:

"... [T]he denial of the priesthood to blacks on Earth — although not in the afterlife — protected them from the lowest rungs of hell reserved for people who abuse their priesthood powers. 'You couldn’t fall off the top of the ladder, because you weren’t on the top of the ladder. So, in reality the blacks not having the priesthood was the greatest blessing God could give them.'”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-genesis-of-a-churchs-stand-on-race/2012/02/22/gIQAQZXyfR_story.html?tid=pm_politics_pop


The Mormon church didn't like the negative publicity and Professor Bott's retirement was announced soon after these comments were made.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 08:32PM by lurking in.

I think I would have asked which prophet "said" to put the new policy in place, making it "scripture..."
'Cause Monson hasn't said word one about it.
Oops.

Agree, this is the crux of this matter. This is Prez. Newsroom to the max. The mishies are just repeating the talking points about a press release from the Church PR office responding to criticism of a policy change in a private priesthood leadership handbook. How is this "scripture"? The mishies are lost at sea on this.

the 'age of responsibility' is (still!) eight yrs old; it DOESN'T CHANGE according to the 'worthiness' (or lack of it) of the parents, the babysitter, or the family across the street...


Am I Clear on that?

You set the ground rules (i.e., stick to the topic) and enforced them. You were polite and articulate.

I hope those young ladies have a few things to think about.

Wonder why they went with first names rather than "Sister?"

I very much enjoyed the interaction you had with the sister missionaries. It was non confrontational and treated them with respect while at the same time pointed out obvious flaws in the rules and regulations (er I mean prophetic pronouncement).
My hat is off to you. well done.