Posted by:
Nightingale
(
)
Date: October 21, 2010 04:22PM
Well, there's a way to say things.
One way can make the OP feel misunderstood, undervalued, ridiculed, told off, or even attacked.
Another way can offer support while making concrete suggestions about how things can change.
As many of us know, there is a huge learning curve in leaving a tightly controlled environment and moving out into the big wide world. We do take our former ways of interacting and coping with us - we haven't learned new ones yet.
I find that especially women who have been exceptionally meek and obedient take time to learn to be assertive. The mildest of differences of opinion seem like major clashes and many are deeply programmed to avoid that. More assertive women, especially if they have never been in a fundamentalist, patriarchal, hierarchical environment, can't fathom the non-assertive responses often given by less assertive women. Barking at them to "grow up", "do it yourself", "tell the guy where to go", "who cares what your pastor thinks", "kick your husband to the curb" etc does not magically transform a less assertive woman into a she-bear.
As with many things on the road out of a controlling group, some people take longer than others to reinvent themselves, as that is often what is required.
The reason I have responded so many times on this thread is that I have lived through this transition as well so have a lot to say about it. It can take a while to learn to view the pastor as essentially a fellow churchgoer, albeit one who gives a lot more talks than anyone else in the group, rather than the go-to guy for everything from a leaky tap to a spiritual crisis. It can take a long time to come to realize that things are very different in most other non-mo (or non-JW, etc) churches. One of the biggest changes is that the minister is the spiritual leader but not "the boss", at least in mainstream groups and that the group is amorphous - congregants are free to make their own choices.
It sounds so simple, but depending on your religious background, it is often a process to come to understand what that means and then to move into it, believing you are equal to the pastor/minister - all worshippers together - and then acting like it. In the post-mo church I attended, it took me time to comprehend that the pastor was an advisor, a speaker, a voice on the governing board, a resource, etc, but not a person who had authority over me. The only difference between us, essentially, was his position as a hired person in the church with a specific and publicized job description who happened to have a degree in Theology, OT Studies, etc while I was an attendee at the church who went to church classes and participated in some of the various ministries in which the church was involved; both of us being fellow worshippers on an equal plane in that regard. Many things went on that didn't require the pastor's attendance or direct oversight and many congregants, both men and women, were in charge of programs, classes and outreaches. It was eminently reasonable for church members to suggest programs and policy and the pastor had one vote, just like everyone else (although true enough, on major items his was the deciding vote, but he had to keep the congregation happy, not the other way around, as he was essentially an employee of theirs - very different from the Mormon Church and others like it).
It is a vastly different world from what I had been used to in several "fundamentalist" groups. The reality at more mainstream churches doesn't always hit you in a blinding flash. It can take time to process the differences and alter how you think of yourself and your part in things and then implement the changes.
Makes perfect sense to me!
I don't see Sandie "constantly" posting about a continual litany of problems. Not too many of us come here and post about something that's going right. We hear from people when they have a nagging question, an urgent situation, a life-changing moment, an ongoing situation they can't figure out, etc. From that you could say that nearly _everybody_ here "constantly posts about problems". It's kind of a harsh reaction to hit an OP with that response when they're asking for support and maybe suggestions, not barbs and blasts which only make them end up feeling worse about themselves and more hesitant to post on personal issues.
That is not to say that it isn't helpful to make suggestions about how to react in certain circumstances and how to deal with realities you can't change. Certainly, to suggest that her current church might not be the best fit for Sandie could be a helpful response. To indicate that an issue like the grabby man is her _fault_ is less than helpful. To be so blunt and non-supportive as to make her feel bad about posting is not to understand the disengagement process that many of us have to go through as we transition from fundy to main to maybe different realities altogether.
Definitely, at least the grabby man part is _not_ Sandie's fault. To baldly state "you shouldn't be there", "you should assault the guy back", "you're not assertive enough", etc sounds a lot like blaming the victim to me, besides being unrealistic in terms of Sandie's personality, experience, the place where she's at in her post-mo life, and the law itself frankly (as returning assault for assault is not an acceptable reaction in law).
That's how I see it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2010 04:28PM by Nightingale.