Someone countered my statement that being a member of TSCC is not a contract. Nope. Yes, someone signed my baptism papers when I was eight years old. Minors can't make contracts, and no one can enter into a contract by proxy for a minor. There are legal differences depending on whether one has resigned or not, but those have nothing to do with contract law. It's more to do with tort law, as in whether the church may "discipline" a person, which may have the effect of slandering/libeling them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 04:22PM by rationalist01.

It is a contract, for your eternal soul! Much like a Comcast contract.

I mean, Scientologists only sign you up for a billion years, so maybe that's the way to go...

Resignation is simply one of several ways to officially let the morg know they're not allowed to pester you or try to discipline or direct your life.

Being dunked in a Mormon ward house at age eight doesn't make the morg your boss. The law won't help them collect your tithes or back them if you don't attend and refuse to wear regulation underwear. Being dunked also doesn't give the Mormons a legal right to show up at your house if you've told them to stay away.

Quitting the church is not like divorce because there is no alimony or material goods to divide and no kids that the church has rights over unless parents give them those rights.

ONLY the Mormon church thinks they have rights if over you if you don't resign. Not true. They only have the rights an individual grants them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2015 07:19PM by Cheryl.

Quitting the church is like a divorce in the sense that just walking away from a marriage does not dissolve the marriage in the eyes of the law. Similarly, just walking away from a church, any church, does not dissolve the membership. They may drop you from the local congregation roster, but if you show up twenty years later, you will still be considered a Catholic or whatever.

BTW, a fair percentage of divorces don't involve alimony these days. A fair number don't have children, so no support or custody issues. Sometimes there is no property that needs to be formally divide up in the divorce. None of that is relevant. The marriage is not technically over until one spouse files for and is granted a divorce.

Resigning is simpler, and you don't need to involve a judge unless the other party refuses to recognize the resignation, but the principle is the same. Once the membership is established, either party can terminate the membership, but they are required to tell the other party the membership is over. If the church excommunicates you, they are obligated to tell you, and LDS Inc is quite fastidious about that. And if you want the membership legally terminated, you are obligated by the courts to tell the church. If you don't do that, as far as the legal system is concerned, you are still a member.

All that really means is that as long as you are a member, the church can sanction or terminate your membership. You may not care about that in the least, but it is the one right they have as long as you are a member.

Cheryl, in your particular case, you had what I believe is known in the legal trade as a "constructive resignation". That's where you don't actually write a letter to resign, but make it so abundantly clear by your actions that you want no part of them, that they did the resignation paperwork for you. That kind of makes you the proof of concept case. It's possible to resign without writing a letter or email, but it takes a lot of work to accomplish it that way. Me, I took the easy way out.

No one can dissolve a marriage legally unless they do the paperwork.

Leaving a church is more like leaving a job. A letter of resignation is not a legal requirement. Saying "I quit" and never going back also works.

If the employer requires a letter, HR can write and file it. That has nothing to do with the former employee who has moved across the country for a better job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2015 11:53AM by Cheryl.

I left the Catholic church about 47 years ago. I had issues with the church, including how women were treated. So, I just stopped attending.

I may be on some registry somewhere--probably in the church in which I was baptized as an infant and had my first communion or in another church in which I was confirmed.

I could attend or not attend any Catholic church or, indeed, any church anywhere. That is true agency!

Oh, baloney. How do you think you got your Social Security number? Your parents signed you up for an account. Perfectly legal for your parents to sign a contract in your behalf. You don't get to renounce your SS account when you turn 18, nor do you have to do anything to make it legally your account. It was legally yours as soon as your parents signed you up.

They get to sign you up as a member of LDS Inc.

A SS number is not a contract either. It's for identification.

Some families do use baptismal papers for ID when kids enter school, but this is not considered as good or permanent as a passport or SS number.

The Mormon church does have rights concerning those whose parents forced them to join as kids. Those rights include ONLY using or keeping records in ways that do not inconvenience or in any way harm a person's privacy or status outside Mormon private conversations.

Anyone who doesn't care about what Mormons say about them in PEC meetings and such or who doesn't care that there are computer files mentioning them need not worry. They have a right to STOP ALL face to face or phone contact if they're in the "member file" or the "former member file."

Even fully active tithe payers have a legal right to opt out of church visit programs. Anyone can legally opt out of any or all of any church at a moment's notice. You don't want home teachers? Tell the church to stop them and they must do it. You don't want to bless your baby in a Mormon ward house, the law won't force you to do it.

You do have to be ready to stand up for your rights and insist on these exemptions because Mormons are deluded and they think God gives them these rights over others. They may be so ignorant that they think the law will back them up but the law does not recognize or enforce church expectations in anyone's private life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2015 05:21PM by Cheryl.

Apples and oranges.

This is why we REALLY need to make Age of Majority a prerequisite for "official" or binding membership in ALL religions. How is it okay to bind a kid to some ridiculous belief system when they have no legal standing? Has anyone ever heard of a child who didn't WANT to be baptized and was actually taken seriously by the adults around them? When I was about 6 I told my parents that I didn't like church and didn't want to go anymore. I got a real scolding, but they thought it was just a "phase" or me being "difficult" -- they couldn't understand that I seriously disliked religion and wanted to stop participating.

It's not my fault that I was born into this absurd church, nor that I had to swallow my doubts and be baptized at 8 -- I had no choice. And I should not have to jump through their hoops to be free of it. Fuck their beliefs and their discipline, I'll have nothing to do with any of it.

unless the members choose to comply with church expectations.

oneinbillions Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is why we REALLY need to make Age of Majority
> a prerequisite for "official" or binding
> membership in ALL religions. How is it okay to
> bind a kid to some ridiculous belief system when
> they have no legal standing? Has anyone ever heard
> of a child who didn't WANT to be baptized and was
> actually taken seriously by the adults around
> them? When I was about 6 I told my parents that I
> didn't like church and didn't want to go anymore.
> I got a real scolding, but they thought it was
> just a "phase" or me being "difficult" -- they
> couldn't understand that I seriously disliked
> religion and wanted to stop participating.
>
> It's not my fault that I was born into this absurd
> church, nor that I had to swallow my doubts and be
> baptized at 8 -- I had no choice. And I should not
> have to jump through their hoops to be free of it.
> Fuck their beliefs and their discipline, I'll have
> nothing to do with any of it.

Exactly! I raised this a couple of months ago. Why should kids be joining religions before the age of majority (18)? Attending with parents is one thing, but officially joining should wait until they are adults and can more fully understand what they're joining.

I looked up about half a dozen definitions of contract from various sources and the common element among all of them are the phrases "enforceable by law" and "legally binding."

The Mormons were forced to start accepting resignations because there was no contract in the first place. The baptism certificate is not a contract, especially an enforceable by law contract.

If it were a contract it would be more in the same category as putting a contract out on someone to a hitman.There are some similarities there.

If the baptismal certificate were an enforceable contract, the law would have to step in when the church refused to give benefits or live up agreed upon member expectations. The law doesn't enforce church expectations for either party.

The LDS church as a group is an unincorporated voluntary association. Baptism is considered the means to become a member of said association. If you do not wish to be a member of said association, then you can just inform them of such and you are no longer a member.

That's all it is. The notion that resignation recognizes some authority is absurd. It's like canceling a credit card that you never use. If you don't want to bother, then that's fine too.