Survival tips for dealing with crowding situations,

"[W]hatever the findings in Saudi Arabia -- and it must be remembered it is still unclear what caused the stampede -- there are certain universal precautions that apply to individuals, whatever the type of gathering, and wherever you live.

Put simply, we should all aim to take charge of our own personal safety when dealing with crowds. And, as I've learned from years spent working in disaster response, as well as conversations with specialists such as Paul Wertheimer, a leading expert on crowd management and safety, there's a science to staying safe in large groups.

Above all, be prepared. Hydrate. Wear appropriate shoes. Make sure you apply sunscreen if you're going to be outdoors. These small steps may seem minor, but when you need to move fast, a blister or sunburn can slow you down and even become critically dangerous.

Along with preparation comes some situational awareness. When you arrive at your event, take a look around for exits and the routes that make the most sense for you. Are stairs an issue for your toddler and her stroller? Does your spouse have trouble with poorly lit hallways? Remember that you may not be able to take advantage of the main exit if things start to get bad. Take these things into account before disaster strikes.

Next, keep tabs on your personal space and how you'll have to adjust to maintain it in a crush. If you feel the crowd getting too dense for comfort, get out before it gets worse. The most common danger is suffocation from too little air space, rather than trampling. If it's not possible to get out immediately, try to conserve your energy (don't shout or shove!) while following some of these key tips:

Don't let your arms get pinned to the side. Keep firm, well-spread footing (that's where good shoes come into play again) and keep your arms close to your chest. Don't resist the force of the crowd. Similar to a rip tide, the rush of the crowd will be stronger than your chance of withstanding it, so try to go with the flow as you look for openings (moments of stillness) to weave in and out of the surge in a diagonal, stop-and-go motion.

Finally, the most important thing you need to do while you're trying to get out of the crowd is avoid falling and keep those around you from falling as well. Help the people surrounding you, knowing that if someone near you goes down, your chances of escaping are greatly diminished. The fact is that in so many crises, your own individual chances of survival rise and fall with the people around you.

Tragedies like those that occurred in Saudi Arabia aren't inevitable. We seem to have become too used to deaths at religious events like the Hajj event, dismissing them as somehow part of the pilgrimage. They are not. Death does not need to be destiny."


http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/24/opinions/kayyem-hajj-stampede-deaths/

I have a foolproof method: Don't go. Don't go to any huge event of any kind, in fact. Especially don't go to any huge event with tens of thousands of Third World participants. Hanging out with 50,000 or so Bangladeshis? You're just asking for trouble.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fire-on-saudi-jet-kills-301

Never be in any emergency with a Third World people. I rest my case.

Holy $%^#...that article says it all.

Myron Donnerbalken Wrote:
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> Never be in any emergency with a Third World
> people. I rest my case.

This is stereotyping. "Third World" countries can be vastly different culturally and in every other way, and what is true in a particular Third World country may not be true in another.

I agree that it is better to not be in an emergency in ANY country (including First World ones), and that some Third World countries are definitely far more dangerous in emergencies than others.

This is the chance you take when you decide to go to (or are sent to, via the military, etc.) a Third World country.

You take the precautions that are available to you...you follow what your consulate tells you to do, or NOT to do (the Western consulates are usually VERY good with straight-on warnings about dangerous situations and potentialities)...

...and then you try to be as safe as it is possible to be IN THAT SITUATION.

There is a common South African saying..."Be Wise."

This works (as well as anything CAN work) ALL around the world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2015 03:49PM by tevai.

Crowds spread sore throats, colds, flu, TB and hundreds of other infectious diseases.

If you do go to an event that will be 110 degrees, don't cover yourself head to foot in burkha style clothing.

If you need to be able to see what is going on around you, don't cover your face. If you may need to run, don't wear cumbersome long skirts.

In a previous Hajj disaster, a bridge collapsed. The victims were mostly women and their children. The men could see what was happening and run and jump away. The women couldn't see, had to stay with their kids, and were deserted by the men who would have claimed they worshipped their women and kept them on a pedestal.

And don't take kids to these events, please.

Will the Saudis tell us how many Hajj victims are women? And why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2015 12:10PM by Heresy.

"If you do go to an event that will be 110 degrees, don't cover yourself head to foot in burkha style clothing.

"If you need to be able to see what is going on around you, don't cover your face. If you may need to run, don't wear cumbersome long skirts."

Seems to me that the safest thing to do is don't be a Muslim.

Great tips! I don't plan on going anywhere crowded but it's always good to have knowledge.

I hate large crowds, and traffic jams.

One of the reasons I fled NYC, pre-9/11.

I worked just two city blocks from the WTC. No, I don't miss those days.

Wow! I'm glad you got out pre-9/11.

I had a goal to move before my children were junior high age.

I'm so glad we did.

I would have been relieved too.

If one dies during the pilgrimage, there are special rewards, so it is an honor to die while on pilgrimage.
In 1990 around 1500 died. Amyjo, you gotta figure these people wanted to die. Its an honor to die at hajj. But it doesn't mean that you have to and they do everything to prevent it.

Wow, so they're possibly even anticipating it before it happens?

Whew. That would require a certain destitution of mind and spirit to be so blithe about dying. It could be therefore a form of suicide, or euthanasia.

Running to their deaths like a stampede of buffalo over the cliffs.

Only the buffalo don't know it's happening until it's too late.

There are many countries on earth where, for good [local] reason, life is not necessarily expected to last for anyone.

"Destitution of spirit" might be one explanation...but so could "just being realistic."

For those Muslims who choose to go on the Hajj (many of whom are from First World countries), I am sure they are well aware of the potential dangers (their mosques all have numerous people who HAVE been on the Hajj), and have made their own decisions about whether it is worthwhile to take the chance or not. (Not in any way different from when I went to Colombia---"same" dangers, "same" risks.)

I don't think that I was "destitute of spirit" when, in Miami, I got on the Avianca plane to Bogota...and I doubt that the preponderance of Muslims who go on the Hajj are either.

tevai Wrote:
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> There are many countries on earth where, for good
> reason, life is not necessarily expected to last
> for anyone.

Saudi Arabia may be near/at the top of that list. I mean where else do people literally stampede to their death? Animal behavior is one thing, but these are people. You'd think they'd practice some kind of orderly procession, without a mob mentality. That kind of a religion strikes me as cultish, to be so ready to die just to make a trip to a shrine.


> "Destitution of spirit" might be one
> explanation...but so could "just being
> realistic."

I wonder though who thought through that before getting trampled, and would go anyway? These people don't seem like most of them are highly educated, if at all.

> For those Muslims who choose to go on the Hajj
> (many of whom are from First World countries), I
> am sure they are well aware of the potential
> dangers (their mosques all have numerous people
> who HAVE been on the Hajj), and have made their
> own decisions about whether it is worthwhile to
> take the chance or not. (Not in any way different
> from when I went to Colombia---"same" dangers,
> "same" risks.)

Are there human stampedes in Columbia? I imagine the risks there are more to do with human trafficking and drug cartels?

> I don't think that I was "destitute of spirit"
> when, in Miami, I got on the Avianca plane to
> Bogota...and I doubt that the preponderance of
> Muslims who go on the Hajj are either.

Perhaps it's all about how we're conditioned to view life. I was raised to respect my life, and treat it as a sacred trust. Not to be reckless with my own safety, or the safety of others.

That's Jewish also, in concept. One of Judaism's highest values is the sanctity of life. All life has meaning and all life has value. It teaches to save even one life can save the world.

"Value of Life

"Thou shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Judaism says that life is sacred.

Jewish law prohibits infanticide, human sacrifice, and killing for sport. The Torah tells us that virtually all its commandments should be violated, and no expense or effort spared, in order to save a life.

One of the most beautiful expressions of the value of life is found in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 4:5):

"He who saves one life... is as if he saves an entire universe. He who destroys a life... is as if he destroys an entire universe."

This statement was said almost 2,000 years ago by the Sages of the Talmud, at the same time that the Romans were killing thousands of people for sport." Aish.com

Muslim pilgrims continue hajj rites after crush kills 700

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765680431/Muslim-pilgrims-continue-hajj-rites-after-crush-kills-700.html

"Yesterday's stampede was a catastrophe. We were shocked, but we can do nothing, this was their fate," said Lolo Omar, a pilgrim from Eritrea, said near the site of the disaster in the town of Mina, just outside Islam's holiest city, Mecca. "We wish that Allah will facilitate our pilgrimage."

So flippantly said. "This was their fate." Like so what.

Life goes on, but what about the mourning for those lost? Or, maybe that isn't in their vernacular.

This predictable crowd event has unfortunately given rise to a serious logistical problem.

Muslim 'scholars' have calculated that no fewer than 55,152 virgins (72 x 766) will be required immediately to service The Squashed when they reach the Great Harem-sarai In The Sky.

In these times though, after the liberal "New Morality" propaganda has been force-fed to the the masses for seven decades, where they gonna find these girls?

Fate. The blessings of the hajj has more to do with continual forgiveness of sins. Being 1 step away from Allah before? If one desired the blessings, would one get in the scrum immediately after noon prayer on the 3rd day.
Millions go to the hajj. It is amazing so few die.

IN

on worse thread in RfM history (srs)


brb ~ hydrating

brb ~ ¿ where are appropriate shoes ?

brb ~ applying sunscreen

brb ~ not dying in some stoopid dumass stampeede


stay safe RfM

ziller Wrote:
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> stay safe RfM


You, too, ziller...

The stampede happened during the "stoning of the devil". It seems reasonable to suggest that the prince of darkness was probably just fighting back a little bit.

The other mass stampeded in 1990 that killed 1400 muslims was also during the stoning of the devil phase.

If the accidents happen in the same places every year, it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out what caused it. This one was probably caused by the running back and forth, ala hagar, as usual.
They've had some pretty nasty accidental stonings at the pillars of the shi'itan also. Everyone is running all over the place in a religious frenzy.
Muhammad didn't think there'd ever bw so many people that he thought of crowd control.

+1

In such a burqacious crowd, I don't think sunscreen would have made much of a difference. On the other hand, I'm not sure there was much sunscreen worn at my last stampede, and we lost a few hundred. Still, less than one percent of one percent ain't too shabby.

Seriously, wear sensible shoes, go with the flow, don't fall down. That's all.

You mean, sort of like Crockadile Dundee? When he couldn't outmaneuver em, he simply walked over them. Only in the movies, kids. Only in the movies.


https://youtu.be/Y3O4IOaKZqU

When one is stoning the devil, one is stoning one's own impurities. The reason for the stampede is that it can be done at any time yet directly after noon time prayer is considered the most effacious time. The rush to be most holy causes the stampedes.

Ah! So the leisurely gait I've always employed between any point A to get to any point B, has turned out to be a life saver... Well, good for me!