Here's the situation:

My parents are not members of the LDS Church but the Ward in their hometown stops by to visit them all the time. The RS sisters come every month and home teachers are at the door on a regular basis. The LDS members know my parents will NEVER join the church but they continue to hassle them. To make matters worse, my parents consider them "friends" even when nothing socially has ever taken place with any of them. (my folks drink socially, big deal!)

The problem:

The Ward would like to be included in their inheritance and my parents are not mentally stable in making decisions on their own. It could happen.

How do you stop a church or Ward from hassling people who aren't even members of the religion? Legally can they do this? Does our family have any rights?

I'll let the lawyers on board answer; but remember, if they're taking advantage of your parents because of diminished cognitive capacity, it could be a form of "elder abuse"--a serious legal charge. Best wishes! The Boner.

What those people are doing (and the fact that they are members of a church means NOTHING here!!!) is a serious crime called "elder financial abuse."

Google: "elder financial abuse" and skim through the explanatory material.

After you get a general knowledge, then Google: "elder financial abuse [name of the state your parents are legal residents of]."

You can also Google "elder financial abuse [name of county your parents legally reside in]."

This can be stopped...it can be stopped fairly easily and quickly in most jurisdictions...and you can obtain a restraining order, or other appropriate court orders, to enforce the legal realities of your state and county.

You may (if this is the protocol in the relevant county) begin the process by working with a county social worker. After the facts are determined by the social worker, your parents' case will likely then be transferred to the county prosecutor's office...who will take the case to court.

There is a growing awareness of elder financial abuse which is now occurring throughout most of the country, and measures are being strengthened "everywhere" to prevent it from happening, and to take whatever corrective measures are necessary.

What you describe is ABSOLUTELY "elder financial abuse."

Your parents need protection...and so do you...and you begin the process with Google.

[And please come back to describe your experience. Your experiences can be an important part of stopping these illegal CRIMES which are occurring under the auspices of LDS-connected personnel.]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 10:39PM by tevai.

There are Rights and there are Powers. (Also Privileges, but we'll ignore them for now.)

Powers trump Rights. That's an important fact to remember. It's no good for a senior citizen to shriek at the surly teens that they have no right to be sitting on his lawn. He's correct, but unless he has some Power to enforce his Right, the teens will remain. That's what the cops are for, among other duties.

So... The greedy ass church, via the ward members, may have no right to be hounding your folks to be named in the will, but as you've observed, they have the power to do that hounding.

Were I you, I'd write an informal 'cease & desist' request and try to talk your folks into signing it, and then deliver copies to 'important' people in the ward. Then if that doesn't work, I'd have an attorney write the same letter, on behalf of your folks, with the same message.

If that still didn't work, it would be time to get the Power of the court involved, with a request for costs. If they still persisted, in violation of a court order, they would be inline for fiscal punishment, i.e., punitive damages.

... I know all this stuff because I was a faithful fan or The Rockford Files.

But the key is getting your parents to agree to participate in ending the visits and it doesn't sound like they are motivated to do so. Logically, you need to get them to write a will that doesn't offend the offspring. But if they want to 'reward' the church for all the care and concern shown them, would you be in the right in preventing it? So let them leave $90 to the church...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the key is getting your parents to agree to
> participate in ending the visits and it doesn't
> sound like they are motivated to do so.


I strongly disagree with what you are saying and recommending, EOD...the OP stated that the parents "are not mentally stable in making decisions on their own."

This is NOT the time to include them!!!

The OP needs to go through the first steps [of whatever the protocol is in that particular jurisdiction] on his/her own, WITHOUT the parents...and it may be past time for a competency hearing (depending on the parents' actual mental state), and perhaps for either the OP, or someone trusted by the family, to think about a conservatorship. These are all things that will be dealt with once the OP goes to the proper office and begins the process.

If the parents are not competent (or are losing competency) then things are NOT going to be getting better. And if the parents are being pressured to give money to a church they don't even belong to, then they can be pressured to into any con that happens by, peddled by any con artist who can read them and deliver to their weaknesses.

This is not a hypothetical situation, it is HAPPENING...and that means: take it seriously!!!

This is not the time for Do It Yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 11:00PM by tevai.

If there is constant pressure, in your opinion, try to get evidence of a pattern. I'm sure that they are slippery enough not to "give you ammunition" against their money-grubbing, but if they slip up....

I've seen a couple of so-called caregivers try and worm their way into an old man's heart and snag a slice of his pie....

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is constant pressure, in your opinion,
> try to get evidence of a pattern. I'm sure that
> they are slippery enough not to "give you
> ammunition" against their money-grubbing, but if
> they slip up....
>
> I've seen a couple of so-called caregivers try
> and worm their way into an old man's heart and
> snag a slice of his pie....

Again...this is a CRIME (or a series of different crimes, depending on the details of what is going on) in at least most of the jurisdictions in the United States.

The umbrella term is "elder financial abuse," but under this umbrella can be numerous different crimes, each of which is legally punishable according to the laws of that jurisdiction.

Caregivers are OFTEN "elder abusers" (many different kinds of abuse, INCLUDING financial abuse).

And they can be PROSECUTED for their crimes!!!

Everyone who has parents with assets must guard them and review every legal document/check their accounts regularly.

I know someone who found out their attorney wrote his own child into the inheritance of 10.8 million. They discovered this before the death of the aged/incapacitated spouse.

Just like NPR, and charities, the church is right in there trying to butt in to estates ripe for the picking. They have a legion of attorneys to enable this behavior.

Contact your local state and county prosecutors and follow their advice. Contact your own attorney to lock down the finances, directives, power of attorney...

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the web. My Dad has been diagnosed with dementia by doctors. You can say your parents are mentally unstable, but what do their doctors say? Also, talk to your parents about power of attorney, do they have a will and what type of medical intervention they would want if they could not make such a decision.

Yes, Power of Attorney has been brought up.

Great idea!

I know that LDS Corp has specific departments at the corporate level that actively seek out and facilitate inheritance gifts to themselves.

From personal experience, I know that local church leaders (at the bishopric level) solicit gifting to their church, both when the people are still living as well as in their wills, They tried it with my elderly father when they encouraged him to gift them his house when he entered a nursing home.

They have NO scruples as to soliciting such gifts from non-members. In your parents' case, it appears that the local unit is engaging in a full-court press to set the Corp up as a 'gift recipient'.

Have a serious talk with your parents and warn them.

The first issue is whether or not your parents are legally competent to handle their affairs. If they are not, then they are unable to make a valid will or to dispose of property. However, if they are legally competent and you try to have them declared not so, you run the risk of alienating your parents.

If they are, in fact, judged legally competent, then their decision on disposition of their property will carry great weight in any litigation.

As to elder financial abuse, those laws are primarily, but not exclusively, designed to keep outside parties from draining your parents estate while they are alive. It probably is possible to bring a successful case if someone is pressuring an older couple to change a will, but that is a higher hurdle than pressuring for immediate gain.

As you describe it, it sounds like the church is on solid legal ground in soliciting part of the estate in the will. Do your parents consider what is happening "hassling" or is that your opinion?

Finally, any free legal advice you receive from the Internet is worth every penny you paid for it. For specific advice relevant to your state and its laws, contact an attorney in your area that specializes in estate planning.

No, my parents would not consider the LDS Church hassling them at all. They don't know the ulterior motives behind these visits and they choose to allow them into their lives without hesitation. You could say there's a very high level of trust between them now with gifts during the holidays and get well cards sent for every hospitalization.

And, if I did try to explain to them what is happening I realize in the process I would be deemed "insane". I must agree with 'why wait' on this one and have decided it would be worth speaking to an attorney for some peace of mind to get the right answers in the State where they both reside. I will gladly pay for legal services and will share this with other family members who want to "act" and be prepared.

I want to express my appreciation for all the great comments and red flags I now see from these posts above. I had no idea this could be considered Elder Abuse and it's actually eye opening and disgusting to see the LDS Church working so hard to worm themselves into my parents estate, will or trust.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my request and I greatly appreciate each informative & skilled comment.

You're awesome!

I'm curious how you know "the ward would like to be included in their inheritance"?

I see the missionaries visiting this older couple in my neighborhood regularly and I know they are members of another denomination... Now I'm even more suspicious....

Ditto... I was just about to copy and paste this phrase and ask the same question.

1. The ward? The ward could be 200 plus active people.

2. Who in the ward? Who is representing "the ward."

3. How does "the ward" know about the details of your parents estate?

4. How would you be "deemed insane" by discussing this with you parents?

This original post seems off to me.

Mormon lurkers?

My comment is based on reality and I came here for real help.

If you can't do that, then go frack yourself.

read this and weep

They have a huge entity just to take your Parents money

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/gift-planning.html

Yea, this makes sense. It's also the first thing IHC asks
when you go in for any visit, "Do you have advance directives?"

Thanks 'that guy' :)

This exploitation of vulnerable people needs to be on video and uploaded for the world to see.

No amount of spin could change the negative PR this would bring.

These crimes usually happen in the victims home, where any type of hidden cam is perfectly legal.

+10000 Deco.

Thank you.

I've been told I'm incompetent, but how easy would it be to get a court to issue a decree that such was the case? What's the standard of proof?

If your parents told you, "We're leaving $1,000 to the mormons in our will!" would that upset you enough to set legal wheels in motion that might imperil your own inheritance?

Sure, if they said, "We're giving everything to the church!!" who wouldn't fight that!

In a perfect world, non-mormons wouldn't succumb to the blandishments of suck-up, greedy mormons. And a set of parents would have to be pretty far gone around the bend for them not to understand, and quite possibly resent, any attempt to modify or restrain their behavior.

There are two competing issues: 1. People have the right (and power) to do what they will with their money, and 2. Getting a court to cut off that right is not easy.

The irony in the word "Elder abuse" as in Mormon Elders at your door asking for money for a corporation who takes,takes, takes.

these thieves need to be outed

it gets worse..

https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/gift-planning/what-to-give.html

that guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The irony in the word "Elder abuse" as in Mormon
> Elders at your door asking for money for a
> corporation who takes,takes, takes.
>
> these thieves need to be outed
>
> it gets worse..
>
> https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/gift-planning/w
> hat-to-give.html


meant to add this..
from their page:

it is time to consider the assets you have available for use in a planned gift.

Other than cash, which can be given through any planned giving tool, there are a variety of assets you can give. Each asset is appropriate for certain planned giving tools, so it is important to consider both the asset and the tool to decide if there is a way to structure the gift using an asset in a way that fits your objectives.

Your gift of securities, real estate, or other assets can make a meaningful difference in someone else's life and potentially bring you tax and other benefits.


-------------
so tell me tscc - why isn't tithing enough..? tell me

frackenmess Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem: The Ward would like to be included in their inheritance and my parents are not mentally stable in making decisions on their own. It could happen.

I'm not sure from your post whether or not LDS church interest in your parents' estate has already happened, or it has not happened yet but you want to be proactive.

If it's already happened, what exactly transpired? I agree with the board members above to consult your parent's local elder abuse agency and/or an estate lawyer.

If it hasn't yet happened, it is still wise to be aware of potential abuse. In that case, you may wish to discuss this issue with your parents, perhaps giving them examples from other board members (I do remember that this has happened in the past.) You may also wish to discuss with them the potential need for you or another sibling having power of attorney, medical power of attorney, etc. These types of conversations are common and usual as parents age.

Nothing has happened as of yet. Only discussion with family members who are concerned about the frequent visits from LDS ward members. You can't visit them without a visit from a member stopping by unannounced to share the gospel.

This should not even be an issue because they (my parents) are not in the Ward and have never attended church, ever! Not once have they stepped inside a LDS chapel.

I think of myself as a moral person with some scruples and have not wanted to ask them "how much money do you plan to leave the LDS Church?" It's not my business and yet, I'm their daughter.

I believe the LDS Church is very shrewd and knows exactly what they are doing, no discussion of religion, not one reference to Mormonism, no preaching just reaching out in "Friendship".
They are working the deal no doubt in my mind and have fooled my parents into thinking they are about the only true friends they have on earth, the only people who really care.

So, after reading these comments you better believe I will speak to an attorney.

*Let me also add, I don't want to see one red cent go to the cult as they have stolen thousands from my family and I will not let them steal from unsuspecting parents. And, you know who you are don't you?!!

Thanks Summer!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2015 12:59PM by frackenmess.

So you are afraid that your parents might donate something of your inheritance to the church or local members who care for them and about them?

The solution is for you to be there so when they come your parents have no actual need for them, and do the caregiving so any outsider is just a neighbor.

Otherwise you really only have two choices. The first is to get two doctors to declare them incompetent and get yourself named guardian BEFORE they alter their will to include anyone who might have helped them in their final days. The second is to allow your parents to age as they want until they have passed on, expressing an opinion here and there, but not cutting off their access to people they might learn to care about.


(Okay if they aren't incompetent, but you have some actual evidence that they are out to financially or personally hurt your parents, you can call the Elder Abuse hotline. But you may find yourself paying these awful people who are being neighborly damages if you suggest they are doing anything wrong even what you think is anonymously online, without a shred of evidence (other than that they are Mormons.)

It isn't your money or any of your business how they spend their money after all.

To lolly 18

You're right, it's none of my business what they do with their money.

They have every right to give it away to the LDS Church and the only people who care about them.


I do plan to be there to act as a care-giver and most likely will be in charge of all financial decisions.

Guess what?

Nothing will go to the LDS Church. End of story.

When we were young, they wouldn't let anyone take advantage of us, now it's our turn to look out for them. Good for you, Frakenmess!

There is a difference between elderly parents making decisions of their own free will, and those of whom others are taking advantage. I think the OP is right to be somewhat suspicious and to keep a guard up. We had one story shared on this board of church representatives who went to see an elderly person in the hospital. They elderly patient was too out of it to realize what was happening. The representatives put a pen in the patient's hand in order to get a signature on a new will leaving assets to the church.

Think that kind of garbage doesn't happen? Think again. Municipalities have departments devoted to preventing elder abuse *for a reason* -- to protect the frail elderly from those who would prey on them. It is best to stay vigilant whenever a suspicion is raised.

It would be really nice to think that the Mormon church has organized visits to the OP's parents in order to keep an eye on them. That may indeed what would be happening. But given the church's deceptive and predatory practices, I wouldn't "bet the farm" on it.

Wait, so you are seriously accusing an LDS Ward of an effort at "Elder Abuse" to cheat your parents out of their money.

Funny you provided no evidence for that claim.

Sounds more like what Mormons do. They visit people and endlessly hope they will join the Church. But despite the problems with Mormon belief and the LDS Church, most LDS are good hearted people.

Then again, perhaps you have some evidence that there is a conspiracy raging against your parents.

Anon for this one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait, so you are seriously accusing an LDS Ward of
> an effort at "Elder Abuse" to cheat your parents
> out of their money.
>
> Funny you provided no evidence for that claim.

This forum is not a place where legal evidence is required (or should necessarily be offered)---this forum is a place where issues (among other things) can be discussed, and where information from other posters can be asked for. Posters are specifically told NOT to post identifying IRL information---which is the "evidence" you erroneously think ought to accompany an Internet request for discussion and information.


> Sounds more like what Mormons do. They visit
> people and endlessly hope they will join the
> Church. But despite the problems with Mormon
> belief and the LDS Church, most LDS are good
> hearted people.

No one here is saying anything any different. Most of the people here once were Mormon themselves (and may still be)...and almost everyone here has loved ones who are (or were) Mormons.


> Then again, perhaps you have some evidence that
> there is a conspiracy raging against your parents.

Again, "evidence" is inappropriate and would usually be ill-advised in this forum...but would, of course, be included in any request for assistance from the appropriate legal authorities in a given jurisdiction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2015 08:40PM by tevai.

As long as your parents are deemed legally competent, they can do whatever they want to with their money.

If the church is coming by and basically love bombing them to get them to sign some of their assets over when they die, that is their right and prerogative.

Unless you or someone else in your family were to take your parents to court and prove they are incapable of handling their own finances, and then the court will appoint a trustee, who will strip your parents of their independence and autonomy over their dealings.

If they're that bad off, it may be up to you to have them declared incompetent.

Otherwise, if they decide to will their life savings to Tiny Tim or to LDS Inc., it's their right to do so.

If the visiting teachers or home teachers are really harassing them, I'd report that to your parents Senior Protective Services.

But beware, that agency can also strip your parents of their right to control their finances, if they deem your parents are incapacitated to take care of themselves. In which case the county takes over their pensions and Social Security funds, and directs how their bills get paid each month - giving your parents only an allowance, if that, to subsist on.

Have an attorney write a cease and desist letter to the stake prez with a copy to the church's general counsel and the ward's bishop threatening legal action, involvement of appropriate law enforcement and the press unless they quit it. Just be prepared to follow through.

It is also possible that your parents enjoy these visits from their local ward visiting teachers.

I've never heard of ward teachers asking someone outright to sign over their inheritance to LDS Inc., and would really want more information on what tactics they're using to try and persuade your non-member parents to doing so.

It may make you uncomfortable your parents are having these visits. For your parents, they may really look forward to them. It may be comforting to them that someone checks in on them periodically, even if it isn't their own children.

In short, your parents may resent your interference if you try to get them to cease and desist.