Thank you for your interest in chatting with a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
What would you like to talk about?

Now chatting with Brad
B
Welcome Jeff! Kyle and I will be chatting with you today
7:01 AM

Now chatting with Brad
L
Welcome!
7:01 AM

J
Hi. I'm a relatively new convert to the church. I had some questions for you about the scriptures that nobody bothered mentioning to me before I got baptized that are now causing me some serious concern that hopefully you can help me to alleviate.
7:01 AM

L
Alright, we will help the best we can.
7:02 AM

J
#1. Do you believe that God cursed people with black skin for being evil like it says in the Book of Mormon, Moses and Abraham?
7:02 AM
Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was put upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgressions and their rebellion against their brethren."
7:04 AM
Moses 7:22 "and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."
7:05 AM

L
Good question. Well, let's look at this scripture that helps us understand what God really desires of His children. By understanding this, it will help us understand how to understand that question a little bit better.
7:06 AM
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

J
That was a yes or no question.
7:07 AM

L
Then no. "The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so that they could be distinguished from the Nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse [not the curse itself]. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord. … “The dark skin of those who have come into the Church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse. … These converts are delightsome and have the Spirit of the Lord”The dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so that they could be distinguished from the Nephites and to keep the two peoples from mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse [not the curse itself]. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord. … “The dark skin of those who have come into the Church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse. … These converts are delightsome and have the Spirit of the Lord”"
7:08 AM
This is what a prophet has said about the curse-- it helps us gain understanding.

J
So you don't believe the scriptures?
7:08 AM

L
Hey Jeff, sorry we're doing the best we can. And we absolutely believe in the scriptures. Do I think there are things we don't understand with our little mind and our cultural influence.. yes.
7:09 AM

J
The scriptures specifically say that dark skin was a curse.
7:09 AM

L
It's a little confusing-- but I do know that we can trust God.
7:09 AM

J
No, its not confusing. The language couldn't be more clear. "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was put upon their fathers, WHICH WAS A CURSE upon them because of their transgressions and their rebellion"
7:11 AM
If that's not true, why is it still in the scriptures?

L
There is a difference between the mark and the curse. The mark placed upon the Lamanites was a dark skin (see Alma 3:6). The curse was not the dark skin but being “cut off from the presence of the Lord” (2 Nephi 5:20). Notice that in both Alma 3:7 and Alma 3:14 the conjunction and is used between the curse and the mark. This implies that they are not the same thing. The people brought the curse upon themselves: “And even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation” (Alma 3:19). Through righteousness the curse may be removed, but the mark may remain as it has with the Lamanites.
7:11 AM

J
So second question, if God turned people's skin black in the past for being wicked, why didn't he turn Hitler as black as coal for being evil? Is God different today than he was yesterday, when he turned people's skin black for being wicked, according to Mormon scriptures?
7:13 AM

L
I don't know Jeff, I don't know. Why does He not turn your skin black or my skin black every time we sin? I don't know. But, gaining knowledge and gaining understanding is a process. It comes little by little, and Brad will explain to us how we can prepare ourselves better to gain understanding. :)
7:15 AM

J
So the God of Mormonism is obviously different today than he was back in the day, since he no longer turns our skin black if we sin.
7:16 AM
I'm not comfortable with that God.
Who seems quite the opposite of the God of the New Testament, who commanded us to love our fellow men as ourselves.
Doesn't seem like that God would curse people with black skin so we could hate on them.

B
So before we understand some of these things in the scriptures like you mentioned, it is essential to develop our faith in the core of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The core meaning faith, repentance, baptism, the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end. As we understand these principles, we can more fully understand the nature of God and His love and purpose for us. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
7:17 AM

J
I can't reconcile the racism that is still in Mormon scriptures with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which was quite clear about how we should treat our fellow men, even the dark skinned ones.
7:17 AM
Obviously the Mormon God isn't the same today as he was back in the day, otherwise he'd turn guys like Osama Bin Laden as dark as coal.
7:18 AM

B
I get the feeling that you don't really want to listen to what we have to say. Is there anything else we can help you understand?
7:19 AM

J
Yes. I read on lds.org that Joseph Smith had 34 wives, 11 of whom were married to other men. How is that possible? Was there ever a law that permitted a man to claim another man's wife as his own?
7:20 AM
Had the missionaries done their duty and disclosed this important information about Joseph Smith, I NEVER would have joined in the first place. Isn't that lying by ommission? Isn't that fraud? Like selling a house without disclosing the fact that the foundation has huge cracks in it?
7:21 AM

L
Hey Jeff, real quick, it's important to understand God's pattern of revealing truth to His children before we get into questions like that. A good example of the Lord's pattern is listed in this scripture:

"30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have."
7:21 AM
God wants to help you understand all of these things, but when we don't increase the light within us-- the Light of Christ, our spirits have a difficult time discerning between truth and error.

J
So can you bear your testimony of the truthfullness of wife swapping as practiced by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, since it wasn't marriage, obviously, since there never was a law that permitted a man to make babies with another man's wife.
Like Brigham did with Henry Jacob's wife Zina Jacobs, not Smith, not Young.
What has God revealed to you about how to reconcile that with his law?
the 10 Commandments prohibition against that kind of adultery.

L
Well Jeff, we don't feel like this conversation will be very productive. Our answers will not change your mind or help you. Only your sincere desire to understand God's truths and your own effort to seek our answers through the Spirit will help. And that isn't up to us. We have given you resources from modern day prophets and we will leave you with this essay on plural marriage. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng As you draw yourself closer to the Lord in sincere prayer and righteousness, the Spirit will bring truth to your mind.
7:25 AM
Good luck Jeff, we're going to end the conversation now. Remember to continue to not find reasons to prove God wrong, but reasons to trust and understand Him.
Good luck!
Bye.

J
I read that essay, which shook my testimony to the core
7:25 AM

The chat session has ended.

Their own scriptures say that blacks should be denied the priesthood.

Abraham 1:27
"Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;"

Notice that the Pharaoh was a descendant of Ham (Son of Noah) who according to Mormonism married a black woman who was a descendant of Cain who was cursed with black skin for killing Abel (Moses 7:22). Abraham 1:27 says that because the Pharaoh was a descendant of Cain he could not have the Mormon priesthood.

Now Mormons want to spin it and pretend that it doesn't mean what it says.

Apparently faith changes the meaning of words. Now, "God cursed them with black skin so that they would not be enticing to my people" really means God loves you and wants you to be Mormon.

Maybe there should be a drinking game where you take a swig every time a TBM abandons common sense and falls back the "pray sincerely about it" testimony position.

I get lost in their Gymnastics of explaining the curse and mark or the changing god blah blah blah

They (I assume this chat is with the Missionaries at the Provo MTC) seem to have a script they fallow. especially with the last quip:

>> "As you draw yourself closer to the Lord in sincere prayer and righteousness, the Spirit will bring truth to your mind."

Does That ever resolve anything!?

What amazes me is that there is supposed to be some kind of a difference between black skin being THE curse and black skin being the SIGN of the curse, where the curse is God hates you.

What difference does it make whether the skin color is the curse or just the indication of the curse--either way, black people are cursed. Either they're cursed with black skin or God hates them and to demonstrate that, they're skins are black. This is truly a distinction without a difference. It's completely racist either way. I can't see how the argument that black skin is a sign of a curse helps you in any way to avoid the charge of racisim.

It's typical Mormon word salad, critical thinking challenged BS, like special witness to the NAME of Jesus Christ, not special witness to Christ. What the hell is it supposed to mean? Well, it means we're not lying, or, we're not racist, or whatever other positive image we need to project to avoid the consequences of what we actually are on record as teaching.

Its not just what theyre on the record of having taught, its what it currently says in their scriptures and their inability to honestly answer serious questions about the blatent racism
Their tactic is to avoid answering serious questions and instead change the subject to anything besides tgeir racist scriptures. This problem is not going away.

Entrenched Mormons are often nut cases who love to quibble like New Testament doctors of the law. It's about quibbling and hedging, not about the truth. The truth is that there is no difference between the curse and the so-called "sign" of the curse. A curse is a curse, and non-white skin (because that's really what it's all about--not black skin or brown skin, but non-white skin) is non-white skin. The intent is the same, either way. The intent is to demonstrate that non-whites are not cool with God.

True. I realized i was nothing like Mormons the last time i attended a GD class and the visiting Stake Dry Councilman eondered aloud when the promise of the BOM eould be fulfilled and the Lamanites would accept the gospel and turn white and delightsome.
I looked around the RS room to see id anybody else was as shocked by that as me. Nothing. Not one person in the room seemed shocked by that statemwnt as me. I felt like an outsider in my own church. I left and never returned.

MCR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What difference does it make whether the skin
> color is the curse or just the indication of the
> curse--either way, black people are cursed. Either
> they're cursed with black skin or God hates them
> and to demonstrate that, they're skins are black.
> This is truly a distinction without a difference.

or a distinction with out a real difference which MORmONS and MORmONISM so frequently attempt to make and rely on.

THAT is what I refer to as a MORmON *distinction*.

I think the funniest part of racism is that real science indicates that the first humans WERE black, and later they moved to northern climates and their skins needed to soak up more sun so they evolved to be white. Talk about turning history on its head... LOL

Missionary losing the racism enquiry asks "Is there anything else we can help you understand?"

Jeff "Yes. I read on lds.org that Joseph Smith had 34 wives, 11 of whom were married to other men. "

hahhahaahha Laughed my head off! lol

My favorite part....

"God wants to help you understand all of these things, (wife swappin PRetend PRofits and overt racism) but when we don't increase the light within us-- the Light of Christ, our spirits have a difficult time discerning between truth and error."

lol as if I'm the one having difficulty discerning between truth and error, when they're the ones having difficulty seeing the racism and misogyny that's written in their scriptures in black and white in plain English.
Apparently 'the Light of Christ(TM)" changes the meaning of the term 'black skin' to mean "cut off from the presence of God'.

smh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2015 02:58PM by koriwhore.

I hate to say, but I think that the online missos did pretty well. They were articulate, and answered your questions. Your only choice at that point was to move on to your next question.

It is almost like they are waiting for you to come online......My turn....My turn.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with these chats? It ain't working.

You think they were articulate?
They are GD liars!
They know theyre lying fot their dark lord, Joseph's Myth.
Why the hell do exmos continually defend the worlds 90,000 doomsday sex Cult recruiters?
Yeah i was one of them and only wish i came across a guy like me who knew wtf he was talking about yield when it comes to race and religion, genetics and science, and Josephs Myth.
What im trying to accomplish is to communicate with interested people, the lies these dishonest, recruiters tell, from somebody who spread that same abusive bullshit around my universe, and then figured out just how fucking evil this abusive sex cult really is.
Now im doing damage repair, hoping to set the gd record straight, for 5 generations of my family who were duped into being exploitrd and abused by this gd exploitative sex CULT.
Im standing up for them, for my children and their children.
I dont know who youll stand for, but if you think their bullshit answers were honest then we obviously have a very different understanding of tge English language.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2015 08:50PM by koriwhore.

lvskeptic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It is almost like they are waiting for you to come
> online......My turn....My turn.


and HOW did you ASScertain that particular sentiment existed in the missionaries ? with a MORmON seer stone ?

@lvskeptic
They lied about what the passages say and then claimed ignorance. They sounded ignorant as they repeatedly said that they didn't understand their own scriptures. This is the new go to apologetic phrase for Mormons confronted with the absurdities of their scriptures or prophetic statements. "We don't understand the passage" is like saying "these are not the droids you are looking for" when we all know they are. We aren't brainwashed numskulls that fall for their tricks.

This should not be possible in Mormonism because they have a living prophet to interpret their scripture for them. Their prophets have contradicted so many of their other prophets it is absurd. If Mormon prophets can't understand Mormon scripture then what chance does anyone else have? Next time a Mormon says they can't understand their scripture then you should ask what has their prophets taught on the subject then go into all the quotes that say it means exactly what it says.

One has to ask why is their prophet silent while their membership "leaves in droves".

And another thing, if you think theyre waiting on me licking their chops to get a piece of me, why do they resort to lies when coenered about their bullshit?

One interesting case of wife-swapping was where BY transferred to Daniel H. Wells one of John D. Lee's favorite wives.

I enjoyed the part where they were unable to resolve your doubt in scriptures so they begin to babble about "God's pattern of revealing truth to His children" by using the scriptures.

If TBM's can deny what one verse says then how can you really believe any other verse?

I hate that they cherry-pick what they want to believe.

I only wish that it was mandatory for the bozo-leaders to man the phones and chats instead of mindless mishies.

There's no getting around the fact that canonized Mormon scripture is racist. After all, it was a product of it's age.. and I don't mean the age of Nephi, I mean the early 19th century, when it was all fabricated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5_L1coztJ4

He ended slavery, when his contemporary, BY, supported it.
Who was more inspired?

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, this makes me think of a nazi apologist trying to describe the difference between Jews having to wear a yellow star as being somehow different than being marked as a a Jew, Jehovah's Witnesses a purple triangle, or a gay man having to wear a pink triangle as opposed to...you get the point.

I served a mission before chat rooms were a thing, so I can only imagine what kind of training these new internet missionaries get. But imagine I will. I suspect that they are trained to answer in the ways they answer and the question of honesty never enters their minds. I also suspect that they've been trained to recognize trolls who are not sincere, and on how to terminate those conversations. Therefore, I also suspect that this kind of trolling does nothing but provide entertainment to us exmo's, and maybe gives the internet missionaries stories to compare at the end of the day. Who knows, they might even have contest to see who had to deal with the most misguided anti-mormon soul that day. But cause doubts in their minds? Convince them of their errors? No way -- they've been inoculated against that in their training.

I just wish somebody would have spoken truth to me on my mission, but nobody cared enough to do so, or they just didn't know.
I sure as hell didn't know.
I learned everything I needed to know about Islam in 1 minute, on 9/11. I learned everything I needed to know about Mormonism in the aftermath.
There was no response from the church.
The so-called "PRofit" fell conspicuously silent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2015 01:09AM by koriwhore.