Dehlin: "Stunning (admittedly third-hand) behind-the-scenes insight into the LDS Church/Boy Scouts unraveling by an alleged source. I have no idea at all if this is credible, but it's a fascinating read if true. If any others have perspective, I welcome input/feedback."

The claims to which Dehlin refers:

"'My relative is a big-wig at Boys Scouts. We are talking very high up in the company. Prior to the announcement that the Boys Scouts will now be allowing gay leaders, the big-wigs at Boys Scouts had a meeting with their lawyers. The following occurred. No further information will be given as I do not want my relative to lose his job (this is all very confidential) and I am having someone else post this for me so that it hopefully protects him further. But I 100% trust that he was telling me the truth.

"'• Boys Scouts has lost considerable funding since gay marriage has become legal. Many, many big donors no longer want to be associated with them because their stance is not politically correct.

"'• They have lost their nonprofit status through litigation over discriminatory practices in several states due to not hiring homosexuals. They were also fighting in the courts in several other states for the same reason and the attorneys feared they will lose. Other lawsuits were being threatened in additional states.

"'• The attorneys also mentioned that the LDS church was facing the very same issues and were being forced to consolidate much of their businesses in SLC because they were losing or being threatened with losing their nonprofit status in many states due to discrimination. They stated that the church was going to continue to fight, but when a certain line in the sand was crossed, the church’s attorneys had already written up a new revelation to help the church keep the nonprofit status. I couldn’t get any more information about what this new revelation was but basically it was enough to keep the church’s nonprofit status. My relative insinuated that the church was being forced by the government into another revelation like the ending of polygamy.

"'• The attorneys strongly recommended ending the ban on gay leaders so that the Boys Scouts could maintain their nonprofit status and stay alive.

"• The Boy Scouts KNEW that if they did so they would lose the LDS church as the church had been extremely clear with them that they would break ties if the Boy Scouts allowed gay leaders. The LDS church is a major client.

"'• Many of the big-wigs at the meeting were LDS (including my relative). This was a terribly difficult decision as they wanted to vote in the best interest of the Boys Scouts but doing so would mean they would have to go against the direct wishes of the First Presidency. They were in agony.

"'• It was decided to allow gay leaders, despite knowing this would mean losing the LDS church as a client. They hoped that they would regain donors to help compensate for the loss.

"'• In order to make the announcement as easy as possible, they chose not to include the LDS church in the decision and they chose to announce it in July (when church leaders were on vacation).

"'• The LDS church has come down HARD on the LDS members who were part of the decision. My relative has not been able to eat or sleep as he says that he was told by a member of the 12 that his very salvation was now at stake due to his participation in the decision. He is devastated and deeply worried he will no longer make it into the Celestial Kingdom.

"'• The LDS church has already told Boy Scouts that they are leaving them. But due to their own lawsuits, they do not want it to be “about the gays”. So they are waiting a little bit. He has been in meetings with PR strategists who told him that the spin they were planning on putting on the split is that the LDS church wants to create more equity in the church. And since Boy Scouts unfairly takes so much of the resources and money from the ward (leaving the girls without as much), the LDS church has designed a church program for both boys and girls that is that same and equitable. The PR department explicitly said that this is an attempt to stop the flood of feminists from leaving the church. IT IS 100% UNTRUE, they are leaving over gays becoming leaders in Boys Scouts. But they are hoping it will make them look good and keep feminists on the edge happy.

"'• This makes my relative mad because he doesn’t think the LDS church should be catering to feminists and gays but should just allow them to leave. He basically spoke as if they were some evil plague.

"'PLEASE do not believe the rhetoric that will shortly come from the church that they are trying to bring more equity between the sexes. It is a lie. This is a crumb being thrown to the feminists in hopes of appeasing the women and reducing the activism. This is homophobia, not equality.
You may share this in other groups, etc.'"


(For post and responses, see: https://www.facebook.com/johndehlinpublic/posts/942209219154161)

If they leave BSA to create an equality program, the members will salivate and cry in humble-pride that the lord prepared it from day 1.

The rest of us will see it for what it is.

Thanks for sharing that, Steve. None of it would surprise me.

steve benson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "'• They have lost their nonprofit status
> through litigation over discriminatory practices
> in several states due to not hiring homosexuals.
> They were also fighting in the courts in several
> other states for the same reason and the attorneys
> feared they will lose. Other lawsuits were being
> threatened in additional states.

That didn't seem right, so I checked on it.
The second part was correct -- there were several states where there was potential action to revoke it, but apparently none have gone through.

I couldn't find anything stating BSA has lost tax-exempt status in any state. Tax-exempt is mostly a federal thing anyway, though a few states have sales-tax exemptions for some Scouting products.

That makes me question the "un-named source" a bit...

It makes me question the unnamed source a lot. I call BS on the whole thing.

I doubt this will happen this way.

"He has been in meetings with PR strategists who told him that the spin they were planning on putting on the split is that the LDS church wants to create more equity in the church. And since Boy Scouts unfairly takes so much of the resources and money from the ward (leaving the girls without as much), the LDS church has designed a church program for both boys and girls that is that same and equitable. The PR department explicitly said that this is an attempt to stop the flood of feminists from leaving the church. IT IS 100% UNTRUE, they are leaving over gays becoming leaders in Boys Scouts. But they are hoping it will make them look good and keep feminists on the edge happy."

The concession it has made to women are allowing them to be on councils not in quorums. I doubt there is a trickle down much.

When the BSA made their public press release that openly gay men could be employees and leaders in their organization, the press release also specifically stated that religious organizations could continue to chose who served as leaders based upon their religious beliefs.

Robert Gates, the CEO of the BSA, publically urged the Executive Committee to adopt the new rule by stating that the BSA could not prevail in court if the they were sued for discrimination. Gates also suggested that a loss in court would significantly harm the BSA.

The BSA saved themselves from lawsuits by gay organizations and from lawsuits from religious organizations by accommodating both sides, thus leaving it to religious organizations to defend their practices rather than becoming embroiled in defending religions who discriminate.

I think it was a smart move for the BSA that will have little actual consequence for religious organizations. Religions enjoy the protections of the state because the US has consistently afforded religion the right to practice as they see fit. I don't see that changing.

I think the the church has actually hit the jackpot!

The church can:

1) use the relgious freedom argument to continue to discriminate against gays and lesbians by taking a stand against the BSA's new rules.

2) use the BSA decision to increase members fears that the church is under attack by the government, gays, etc.

3) perpetuate the myth among the rank and file that homosexuality is related to pedophilia and the church must protect boys from being molested by their scout leaders.

The church is also about $$$$ and power. If the church is able to create a program that increases the indoctrination of adolescents while saving money, they will drop the BSA without giving it a second thought. If there is nothing to be gained by droping the BSA, the church will stay in the BSA and continue to practice as they have in the past.

This has already been analyzed - http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/08/25/on-internet-rumors/

. . . was assessed and described by the "comment consent" of who?

:)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 11:43PM by steve benson.

Someone who knows more about tax law than whoever wrote the original message. I think that the church has already decided to leave BSA, hence the recent intemperate press release from the Newsroom, but some of the points in the original message are rather humorous. Among other things, I think that it has been established that 3 of the 4 LDS members of the BSA executive council attended the July meeting and voted against the proposed measure (Monson did not attend, supposedly due to "vacation"). I believe that these three are an apostle, seventy and general young men's presidency member, and general primary presidency member. I can't imagine that these three are concerned about their eternal salvation because of their vote on behalf of the church's position.

I suspect the op has reason to think the information is credible.

I do know that the Mormon Church has a homophobic history with regard to gays and Scouting, and that it threatened in the past (and as it is doing now) to discontinue its institutional support of Scouting if pro-gay policies and practices were approved and implemented by the national BSA.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 11:47PM by steve benson.

Steve is right. Over my lifetime the Q12 has held votes on whether of not to stay in the BSA. They weren't unanimous, that's all I know.

It seems more likely, the LDS church will give the finger to the BSA. It would be more highly appropriate if the BSA would just drop the LDS church. Wishful thinking I guess..

I believe this is true for one very simple reason. The line about the church attorney writing the revelation. My TBM relatives would all say they know it is untrue, because attorney's don't write revelations, but looking at the Proclamation on The Family, it precisely looks like what happens is that the big 15 tell their attorney's what they want to revelate, and the attorneys write it for them. It's the kind of detail that someone would not make up, but it is exactly how the church operates.

to the BSA - until I moved to Utah.

I'm skeptical because I don't think the Mormons are all that important to the BSA globally. In Utah and the Intermountain West, yes, of course. And Christian Churches of all flavors, yes.

So I wonder if the comments about fear of LDS Church dropping scouts should be more like fear of LDS Church AND other conservative churches dropping sponsorship of BSA troops. Or maybe this was some sort of regional meeting.

Recent articles on the topic have said ~1/3 of troops are LDS troops. I'm assuming that's 1/3 of troops just in the states. Something like 97-98% of troops in Utah are LDS.

I think the church will lose a lot of men by dumping scouts. I know a good number of men that are NOM who mainly stick around because they love scouts...they wouldn't accept any other calling. Most of these men will go completely inactive if they swap out scouts for some Duty to God based program.

This sounds a lot more like the wishful thinking of ultra conservatives.

The only part I can see happening is where they combine their BSA problem with their negligence of girls programs.

(Smacking my forehead) Oh, of course, Boy Scouts is a BUSINESS.

Other countries have had such rulings in place. Same with gay marriage. So why is the church hee-hawing about this in the US and, not say, in Canada? Is it the not-in-my-back-yard thinking, or does the church feel it doesn't have the clout in those other countries?

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=36178007&nid=148&title=lds-church-to-keep-scouting-program

Church keeping scouts.

For now....

I agree this decision may very well be temporary.

A lot of the 'saints' are fed up with the BS in the BSA. It appears most in Utah are ready to drop it.

The 'Friends of Scouting' drives normally makes new lds enemies each year.

You can't keep from losing people when the majority are not happy with BSA.

Of course just my opinion.

Years ago - thanks to Mormonism I married the wrong person :(

Summer/Fall 2012 - my daughter who has had lots of depression, compulsions, etc. issues is starting to act suicidal again on a regular basis

Nov 2012 - After a 45+ minute episode of suicidal threats I called the local police non-emergency dispatch line seeking help for my daughter. When the police arrived my then-wife lied to them claiming I had a long history of abusing our children and that she was divorcing them. In the past such situations had always resulted in my daughter being put in an inpatient psyche ward for a few days. In this case my then-wife's trick worked. However I decided I was done with our marriage unless my then-wife made amends for her lying to the police about me. So I moved out that very same day.

Spring 2013 - My EX never did do anything but dig herself deeper into her lies that day & she just keeps digging deeper :( As a result I had filed for divorce, she countered, and we settled in Mediation. Then the divorce was soon final. All of this was in Salt Lake county.

Spring 2013 - my son got involved in the Boy Scout troop of the local LDS ward; I took a job out of state & travel to Utah about once a month to see them.

Fall 2013 - I meet a woman of color & we start a relationship.

Fall 2013 - My kids and some of their friends do some experimenting with drugs & possession of it at their mom's house. My EX refused to communicate with me about it & try to resolve anything so I had to get the police involved.

2014 - The kids are in open rebellion with me and calling me all sorts of names (i.e. psycho, 4 letter words, etc) in trying to cover up my efforts to warn parents to ensure their kids get help. My EX (still LDS) also starts cohabiting with a guy (also LDS). My kids lie about this (probably because my EX is getting Alimony). My kids also regularly and unrepentedly use racial slurs on my girlfriend who for obvious reasons doesn't like it. With the encouragement of relatives/friends I do surveillance and confirm that my EX is cohabiting and that my kids are lying. I file to take my EX back to Court to have Alimony terminated.

2014 Aug - One evening I tip off one of my children that I have someone doing surveillance in their neighborhood. My EX and her boyfriend move his car. What they don't know is this time that I'm personally doing it and I find his car & document everything. One of the things I had been trying to do is contact the parents of my son's best friend to alert them to his drug issues. So the next morning I knock on their door but they don't answer. That same minute my EX calls 911. My son comes out yelling/screaming and using all sorts of obscene language to try to get me off the street. When the cops arrive I quickly leave but they (thanks to the claims of my son/others) refuse to address the real matter of why I was knocking on that door. Well I left without any fanfare & soon my EX had me served with a temporary stalking injunction to keep me from contacting her or her neighbors. Before then I had tried numerous times to contact her, neighbhors, others by email/phone to no avail to try to address the drugs, racism, and other issues of my son/others. I just want them to be decent people.

2014 Sep - Right before the Temporary Civil Stalking Injunction was served on me my girlfriend and I made a special trip to Utah and we met with that LDS Bishop over the Scout Troop. He promised to address the matters. Once the Stalking Injunction was served I obeyed it completely as I didn't want to face any legal issues. Eventually the court dismissed it with prejudice.

2015 Jan - my son's best friend overdoses on heroin and dies; it was his parents' door that I was knocking on when my EX called 911. Of course my son is devastated. Well maybe if someone had taken the kid's drug issue seriously rather than calling 911 on me then maybe he'd still be alive. Since Jan 2014 the only neighbor door I ever knocked on of my EX was that door just that one time. But alas that didn't stop my EX from making false claims to the court in her initial filing. She had even enlisted the aid of the now-deceased friend to be a witness against me in the court hearing.

2015 Spring - my son (just around the time of turning 18) gets baptized and passes his Eagle Board of Review. He has not apologized for his racism/bigotry. The Bishop obviously never addressed the matters.

In hindsight I could've spent more time around my kids rather than taking an out-of-state employment opportunity in 2013. Sure it sucked to work in Utah as an exmormon with BYU on my resume. It feels so good to be completely authentic now :) But there have been some bad effects for my kids, especially my son. As far as I know his mom & her live-in boyfriend are still LDS. I really could care less what they do behind closed doors and I probably would still be paying Alimony without complaint IF it hadn't been for the fact that she was forcing my kids to lie about it all so brazenly and tolerating my kids' bigotry/racism towards my girlfriend to continue to the present day. Maybe someday they will truly be honorable people.

I think the church is putting space between the gay scout master decision and the eventual dropping of scouts. They want to lead people to believe that isn't the reason they are cutting out BSA.

They need more time to create their illusion and get their lies in order.

It wouldn't surprise me if they're all ready to go with a new program. I give it a year.