Now the CULT could pay someone (a crooked Egyptologist and a crooked engraver could actually make golden plates.) They could do a reversal from what they said happened and have the plates engraved FROM the BoM rather than the other way around. They could even use some chemical to make them seem really old. If Mark Hoffman could do it, the CULT could certainly do it. They have the money to hire someone(s) to pull it off!

TBMs would believe these plates, you know they would! They are so gullible, they'd love to suddenly have the 15 say that they are taking the plates out of the CULT vault for the world to see; then just get them from the Egyptologist and engraver and go for it.
The only problem is which version of the BoM would they use to make the plates from?

I am sure it would be difficult to create a whole new language which is a mix of Hebrew and Egyptian then translate the Book of Mormon into that language.

Difficult, but not impossible. A few educated con artists could do it --- especially since they wouldn't have to create an entire language, only the bits and pieces used in the BoM. And since, if I understand correctly, Reformed Egyptian used single characters (or words) to stand for entire phrases or even more --- that would limit the amount of material to invent. I mean, if you just have a symbol for "and it came to pass," you'd be halfway through doing the whole BoM....

Tolkien invented several languages in and around his fictional works. You just have to find a few liars who are very trustworthy, notably amoral, and of a similar mindset to Tolkien as far as languages go.

I suppose that the hardest part is finding people who are total scammers, but who are also desperate enough for money that one could totally buy their loyalty. It's always (I am guessing here, have never tried it) difficult to trust a crook to be loyal to your needs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 04:11PM by peculiargifts.

Difficult but not impossible.... Since nobody has ever seen "reformed Egyptian," pretty much any kind of screwed up Egyptian mixed with some screwed up Hebrew would work. Remember that nobody has ever seen it before so nothing to judge it by or compare it with.
The people who need to believe it basically believe about anything so I'm surprised that they have not done this already.
It would certainly be the shot in the arm the Cult needs now.
People who will believe the BoA (in spite of tons of evidence to the contrary) will certainly believe it. They believe what their fearless tell them to believe.

Well, you'd have to create a believable structure to the so-called ancientlanguage and you'd have to keep it consistent, and not parallel to English too much either, or language experts (linguists?) would be all over you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 04:11PM by seekyr.

Man, I'm drawing a blank right now... The Anthon manuscript, http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/anthon2a.gif , is supposed to be an example of reformed Egyptian. It's been a number of years, but I recall coming across a story about how some of these figures appear on some British or European set of writings, and that they were known to some people in the N/Eastern states, prior to the BofM, and that JS could have been aware of them, and copied them.

Aha! I found it: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/19000/ the thrust of the argument is that, ""Reformed Egyptian", as copied into the Anthon "Caracters" transcript, by Joseph Smith, were comprised largely of Latin shorthand known as Tironian Notes (notae Tironianae)."

A comparison is presented in the PostMo post, along with highlights of how JS would have known about these characters.

The scholarship behind these claims is found here: http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2001RBSt.htm

Regarding this latter URL, I commented at that time, 11/2009:

"What I read (26 pages, three of which are footnotes) is a pretty stunning bit of scholarship. The copyright is 2001, so I'm curious as to why Stout's work isn't more well known. I highly recommend ... reading Stout's entire piece. Because not only does he touch on the Anthon "caracters" problem, but does a lot of 'correcting' of the JS Story. Stout's conclusion that the BoM is bogus will come as a shock !!

Sounds like me, huh?

Many have pointed out that the characters are similar to "Tironian Notes," a kind of Latin shorthand that may have been featured in a book on shorthand methods. See the Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes

They really are similar.

"I don't doubt somebody could make a convincing version.

However, the "angel" supposedly took the plates back. Never to be seen again.
Producing a set now, the church would have to admit that was a lie, they've lied about having them all these years, etc.
They're between a plate and a hard place :)"

I disagree. The CULT's gods change their minds continually. Look what happened in 1978 which BY said would NEVER happen!

They could just say that Tommy is the profit to get the plates now!

"becuase of this: you cant prove a lie." - the CULT has been attempting to prove lies since April 6, 1830 and they are still around.

I don't doubt somebody could make a convincing version.

However, the "angel" supposedly took the plates back. Never to be seen again.
Producing a set now, the church would have to admit that was a lie, they've lied about having them all these years, etc.
They're between a plate and a hard place :)

Ah yes, but there is nothing to prevent Elohim from sending Moroni back down to Earth to bring today's prophet of God, even Thomas Monson, the gold plates!

Tommy can then tell the story in GC how he went to Memory Grove to pray, and Elohim and Jehovah appeared to him to tell him how blessed he was, and that they had a special surprise for him.

And it came to pass that he then went into the temple of the Lord, and Moroni appeared unto him, and returned the gold plates unto him.

The only problem is that he would then be expected to use Joe's seerstone to translate the sealed portion.

does anyone know reformed egyptian?

becuase of this: you cant prove a lie.

When creating a fraud the last thing you need is evidence of the fraud.

It is called discoverable evidence, and you never want to create any.

The little the church claimed, it is in first hand accounts, biased eye witnesses and even with that they have spent the last 100 years watering it down and denying it.

plausible deniability is what mormonism is based on.If there are plates they they can be scrutinized. If no plates exist, you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that they are whatever you imagine them to be by sheer feelings.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2015 04:54PM by sb.

I just think that bringing up the kooky parts of their belief system will only re-enforce that their beliefs are kooky. This idea would not end well for the LDS.

200 lbs of gold plus the time and technology to produce the plates would be formidable to say the least.

It would also be bound to blow up in their faces as it puts the lie to the taken back to heaven dodge.

And then what?

Claim Nephi/Moroni dropped em on his was back home?

MORmON Jesus really screwed up on the Book of MORmON, but MORmON Jesus is a master of screw ups and not much else. IF MORmON Jesus wanted people to believe in the Book of MORmON then he should have left the plates around for inspection and held back the abominable BOM text that supposedly came from the plates. Its a real work of skullduggery and a veritable wonder that certain people - MORmONS actually bought into such shoddy garbage and kept the MORmON scam rolling along.

The golden plates are out of the question.

But.....the Brass Plates were promised to be revealed in the last days.

HEY HEY HEY

Don't give those scammers any ideas!!!

everyone knows that an angel took the plates to heaven.

Hoffman makes what, maybe fifty cents an hour in prison? So it wouldn't cost so much this time.

And if he blows the whistle, Holland gets to tell the truth and discredit him as a forger and a murderer.

Or they could hire Hoffman,then have him executed in prison Breaking Bad style.

Recreating the gold plates would be way too complicated/expensive.

It would make much more sense for the Morg to recreate the papyrus from the much-shorter Book of Abraham-- using actual egyptian characters that translate perfectly as well as altered (yet similar) facsimiles containing correct translations.

They could then make up some bullshit story about the old papyrus they currently have was the wrong roll and that the original printing company accidentally canonized the wrong facsimiles because they looked similar and someone must have got confused, yadda yadda yadda. But miraculously, by the grace of Elohim, now they have the true scrolls!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2015 10:00PM by hangar18.

Technically speaking the Gold Plates were supposed to be returned at some time in the future for the "sealed portion" of the book to be translated. I don't think that the LDS Church has the guts to invent new scriptures and claim they are a translation of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. If they had any guts at all then they would come out with new revelations periodically. The fact that they never receive revelations anymore just shows that they are out of good ideas.

It might play with the TBM's, but the rest of the world would immediately spot it as a fraud. They really don't want any more sarcastic internet memes than they already have.

Who says they need to be crooked? They just needed to be devoted and told the plates will used in a church play or movie. After the plates are made then be pop's we are sorry there's no budget for the project and BAM you have fake plates to show off with a signed non disclose. WOW document every thing!

Mark Twain said, "Two people can keep a secret, if one is dead."

This would involve a massive conspiracy.* Crating the language and "translation" process, creating blank plates, etching or imprinting them. Soon or later somebody would talk.

*Or to use a favorite LDS term, "secret combination."

Because it would reveal how ridiculous the concept was in the first place. The plates would have to be thick enough to be engraved, but still thin enough to turn, and not prone to tear, as real gold would be. Also, they would have to contain the entire Book (actually the abridged plates), and still be small enough and light enough to be carried by one man with both hands. It would be physically impossible to produce such a thing.

Because they'd be seen as more of a fraud. Even if. they asked the best prop people in Hollywood to do it. It'll still be pointless.