Did you see the poll that was done saying that 63 percent of very active Mormons thought the church should discontinue it's association with the Boy Scouts due to it's policy on allowing openly gay scout leaders? The link is below and I mention the words "very active" because a different article that I can't find now stressed that these numbers were somehow a representative of what very active Mormons thought.

Anyway, we've discussed on this board before the idea that the church is planning to get away from the BSA, not so much because of the gay issue but because they want to take over full control of how their male youth are trained and taught and raised to go on missions. The BSA was a handy babysitter while the "children" were behaving but now that they dare question the church and get on the internet, it's time for their "parents" (i.e. the church) to come home and micromanage their lives and take back charge of ALL their programs. The gay scout leaders are just giving them a reason to take back control, the way that internet porn gives them a reason to scare people off all but the most necessary internet usage.

I wonder if the BSA is lamenting the loss of their cash cow or thinking "Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster - those Mormon troops were a mess. They caused the biggest problems for our organization and had the most casualties. Good riddance to bad rubbish." While I realize some Mormon boys, like my son, had a great experience in Mormon scouting, we all know a lot of times it's a disaster. And the BSA knows it better than we do. I wonder what they are thinking now that polls like this are laying the groundwork for the inevitable parting of the ways.

http://www.good4utah.com/story/d/story/poll-says-mormons-want-lds-church-to-leave-the-boy/33941/ahwABk-fVkScQ1PNQSu6gw

I'm sure the BSA will find plenty of new support to replace mormons and other fundie Christians from people who are gay friendly.

They could have asked me when I was my most TBM, way before the gay thing ever became an issue and I would had said withdraw. They will not keep the wards big enough with enough active people to fully staff scouting and providing two deep leadership was not an easy option. I suggested that the stake have one or two strong troops for boys that were interested and that they be staffed by the parents and others that were really interested in scouting. I got looked at like I had a third eye.

baneberry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I got looked at like I
> had a third eye.

Just to clarify, do you mean they looked at you like you were a prophet who could see things with a third, spiritual eye, like the eyewitnesses to the book of mormon? Or do you mean that they looked at you as though you were weird?

You know, I could have capitalized on that and I didn't.

I was happy it wasn't involved with the mormon church.

It was a non church activity.

I thought it was fun for a few years.
Then I moved on to school activities.

KJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2015 11:59AM by kj.

It's not for everyone and the Mormon church tries to make it for everyone. We were scout leaders for years and some boys really didn't want to be there. That was tough.

I agree. I loved scouts but I have several friends who hated it but were forced to go because of their parents. They were picked on by the other kids because they were different but they didn't have any other option.

That was my experience. I hated scouts, was a sensitive art kid but was forced to go. Why the hell would they think scouts should be for all kids. That probably causes a lot of resentment and leads the kids out of the church when they become adults.

They're actually doing this now in some areas. Very few aging wards in east SL County have enough youth. I have multiple family members that are scout leaders for 3-4 wards.

They should be doing this in my area, but they haven't yet. They split the stake and created extra wards. Now each ward only has one or two youth in each age group. I think it's good though...a good way to lose youth. Scouts was the only thing I liked about church as a kid. There's no way I would have stuck around if I had been in a ward like this.

I just think the church leadership would catch more flack from the members if they decided to ditch boy scouts for their own LDS brainwashing program if they didn't have this issue to hide behind. They are making it about gay boy scouts and gay leaders, but I think they have wanted more control over their male youth for a while.

I also think the BSA will be better without the Mormon troops, who usually don't reflect well on scouting.

^^^ THIS!

The gay thing is a total ruse. There have been gay scouts and gay leaders as long as there have been Boy Scouts. At least if they're open, there will probably be fewer cases of child abuse by Scout leaders.

They wanted a reason to be able to take the YM program and turn it into more of a mormon brainwashing program. All they had before that they could control was the Duty to God thing. Now they can add requirements for advancement in their own lame program such as church and seminary attendance, penishood advancement, missionary prep, etc.

It WILL backfire on them. And it will be fun to watch. Except for the fact that the victims are young men at such a vulnerable time in their lives.

O.k. So Mormons are kept so busy they let the Mo church raise their kids. Think Progress or what ever it's called. Now one of the strongest indoctrination tools for the church....the scouts....the Church wants away from these people. I doubt it. Mormonism is so abrasive I'll bet the BSA wants away from the Mo's.

The thing is if they do split it will be better for everyone. The BSA will not have to say yeah they are with us. Like that brother in Law you have. In addition Mormon scout troops have the highest, like 25 percent more, fatality a in it's scout troops. The scouting expierence will get safer. And as I have mentioned in the past scouting will be more open to others and not seen as an exclusive Mo club.

Somebody posted here a while back that they moved to the east coast and their spouse mentioned there must be more Mormons than he had previously thought because there were Boy Scouts around. She had to explain to her spouse the Boy Scouts were not a Mormon only organization.

If you cannot accept societal change then you will disassociate yourself from that society

I hope they do.

When they do, I'll go back to Scouting. The morg is ruining Scouting.

I'm not disputing CA Girl's reporting on this, although I'll indulge in a bit of nitpicking and say the sub-line should read "would [attempt] to use recent events to ditch scouting."

We'll have to see how this one plays out.

I don't see the LDS Church as having a "viable option" at this point to replace the Scouting program (they certainly have the wealth to finance one, of course). Scouting has a long history, over a hundred years in America, and I'm guessing if the church tried to "appropriate the literature" (there's a lot of it) and fashion a "wholesome alternative," there would be a backlash, even among many of the faithful.

I could be wrong, of course (that's the problem with posting honestly here; most ex-Mormons are still conditioned to "male authority" and "priesthood posturing." Authentic uncertainty is deeply troubling to many). We know there are a lot of LDS families who've been horribly abused because they have a gay child, and they represent a vocal minority on that subject. Their voices will be heard within the church.

There will be loud voices, and such, but the church is clearly on the "wrong side of history" in the same manner it was with the black priesthood issue. Yet scarcely a generation has passed and the historical revisionists within the church are having success in sweeping that one under the rug.

Anyway, I will add my voice to calls for better programs for the young women that are comparable to the BSA (or better, strong encouragement for girls to join Girl Scouts, Campfire Girls, or similar groups).

And of course, I still love to raise my middle finger to the church and point out I was a full-blown atheist in the late 1960's when I received my Eagle award in an LDS troop (as I've noted, I'm not one now; Steve Benson's proselytizing efforts have left me unfazed. Note to Steve: As you are, I once was).

Anyway, I rarely criticize the scouting program (although the number of sexual predators within its ranks is deplorable, and that goes for both LDS and non-LDS troops); I give it credit for my "environmentalist views," and my love of the outdoors (which, regrettably, I don't indulge enough in these days). There are far more worthy targets within the LDS culture that are deserving of my scorn.

Yes, I'd add "would attempt" to. I think they are greasing the pan, making Mormons think that faithful Mormons are all behind this abdication from the Boy Scouts, which would tip the "faithful Mormon" opinion because you know how they all just hate to be seen as anything less that TBM, if they are TBM. If all the "good" sheep want something, then the rest of the good sheep are going to claim they want the same thing, lest they look "unfaithful."

If you don't accept what I lay out, no big deal.

You won't go to hell, since there isn't one--or a heaven, either.

Atheism is reasonable position to me.

If you don't think it is for you, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

In fact, I can't remember having a second thought about whether you were wanting to be an atheist or not.

Sorry.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2015 12:25AM by steve benson.

And seriously, how many speeches about "straw man slaying" do I have to make? To wit...

Okay, you're learning... Your first attempt noted that if I didn't think atheism was a reasonable position or words to that effect... I was posed to make another "straw man speech," but you've edited your reply. Which is wise, of course.

I don't think there's anything unreasonable about atheism; you may be right--in which case we'll never know--and honest, some of my "prayers" from time to time are of the "Please Lord, save me from the zealotry of your followers" variety. Other than my support group meetings--of people who've found a "faith in something" to be useful for recovering from a potentially fatal condiditon--I tend to hang with atheists and agnostics far more often than with religious sorts.

Well except I did have lunch last week with an old friend (went to Driggs the same time you did; my age, and was a buddy of Doyle Olson even). Guy's a former bishop and will be retiring back to Utah after a career as a working scientist/biologist. He joined the church at 15 despite my best missionary efforts back when I was an atheist. Right now he's overseeing the LDS substance abuse programs, and he was picking my brain on the subject. I showed him a recent e-mail in my box from Chris Matthews on the subject; Chris's daughter is dating one of the Kennedys, and Christopher Kennedy Lawford--Peter's son and JFK's nephew--is doing some great work encouraging dialogue and research on the subject.

My friend, incidentally, is quickly becoming knowledgeable on the subject, and he agreed with me there's no "one size fits all" approach to that problem (and he's a big supporter of AA, having seen what it did for me; we also lost two friends who were way too young; one died drunk, and the other--I think I did manage to help him on our one meeting years ago--eventually achieved some recovery).

The big issue I pointed him to (sheesh, I'm getting as long-winded on this one as you are) is the "Great Divide" that exists here in Utah. Besides the "human abuse" the LDS Church perpetuates (you and I are in absolute agreement on that one; the devil is in the details involving "solutions"), environmental issues are particularly problematic, and many of the faithful have been "co-opted"--by the likes of no less than Senator Hatch and his buddies, our governor among them--into believing tree-hugging environmentalists are truly wicked sorts, and the LDS organization is being used to advance those short-sighted agendas.

That one, IHMO, is simply an extension of the "evil gub'm'nt" the faithful have always accused of meddling in Utah affairs and playing that phony victim card. Brigham Young pioneered that M.O. They use that "posturing" as a façade to cover up a lot excesses and acts of actual environmental desecration.

There are many Mormons who believe otherwise, and I'm hopeful of persuading them to take responsible action, regardless of their religious beliefs.

A moment of silence, please, for the immortal Edward Abbey who once said of the LDS Church, "Nothing that ridiculous could be all bad."

Question: What reasons, assuming atheists are correct, and "this is it," can you give for even bothering to attempt to "live a moral existence." I mean altruism has definite self-defeating elements, no?

Just sharing a bit of what it was like growing up in my dysfunctional home; it was decidedly different than the Benson dysfunctional domocile... Steve, BTW, has met my dad, a retired rocket scientist who was as faithful as they come until he got out into the big world out there and his testimony expired. He's still damned opinionated, but I've just about got him trained these days.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2015 05:10PM by Susan I/S.

I also wouldn't be a non-registered voter who is non-affiliated with any of the five political parties officially recognized by the state of Arizona. It is a category that was previously recognized by the state of Arizona as being an "independent."

Your premise sinks before it can even get out of harbor.
_____


By the way, self-described "English teacher" Cabbie, the word "proselyte" can appropriately be used as a verb.

**"Webster's New World Dictionary" notes that the word "proselyted" is a verb version of the noun, "proselyte," the latter which is defined as "a stranger who has been converted from one religion, sect, etc., to another--vt., vi, -lyt'ed;'" in "Webster's New World Dictionary" [New York: Popular Library, 1975], p. 480.


Allow me to gently rub it in a bit further:

**"'proselyte'

"verb: pros·e·lyt·ed, pros·e·lyt·ing, pros·e·lytes

"verb, transitive: To proselytize (a person).

"verb, intransitive: To engage in proselytization."

"verb: proselyte; 3rd person present: proselytes; past tense: proselyted; past participle: proselyted; gerund or present participle: proselyting"

http://www.yourdictionary.com/proselyte


**"'proselyte': another term for 'proselytize.'"

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=proselyte+defintion
_____


Another P.S. for ya:

"atheism" is not a "religion, sect, etc." (Talk about "black and white thinking" on your part). Therefore, rather than allowing a cab-driving theist to define the term "atheism" for atheists, I'll leave it up to actual atheists to do that:

"What Is Atheism?

"No one asks this question enough.

"The reason no one asks this question a lot is because most people have preconceived ideas and notions about what an Atheist is and is not. Where these preconceived ideas come from varies, but they tend to evolve from theistic influences or other sources.

"Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as 'a belief that there is no God.' Some dictionaries even go so far as to define Atheism as 'wickedness,' 'sinfulness,' and other derogatory adjectives. Clearly, theistic influence taints dictionaries. People cannot trust these dictionaries to define atheism. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as 'there is no God' betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read 'there are no gods.'

"Why should atheists allow theists to define who atheists are? Do other minorities allow the majority to define their character, views, and opinions? No, they do not. So why does everyone expect atheists to lie down and accept the definition placed upon them by the world’s theists? Atheists will define themselves.

'Atheism is not a belief system nor is it a religion. While there are some religions that are atheistic (certain sects of Buddhism, for example), that does not mean that atheism is a religion. Two commonly used retorts to the nonsense that atheism is a religion are: 1) If atheism is a religion then bald is a hair color, and 2) If atheism is a religion then health is a disease. A new one introduced in 2012 by Bill Maher is, 'If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position.'

"The only common thread that ties all atheists together is a lack of belief in gods and supernatural beings. Some of the best debates we have ever had have been with fellow atheists. This is because atheists do not have a common belief system, sacred scripture or atheist Pope. This means atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjACahUKEwiTgb3n7r_HAhULpYgKHdZjDcM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fatheists.org%2Factivism%2Fresources%2Fwhat-is-atheism%3F&ei=IRXaVdPsIYvKogTWx7WYDA&usg=AFQjCNH7GYPasCm3rU8stxeZMQbfoBqClw



Edited 18 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2015 02:50PM by steve benson.

Due to LDS influence I once read in an issue of Boy's Life in the comic illustration part, about the Tower of Babel and the Jaredites! If TSCC leaves scouting this would no longer occur. This was almost sixty years ago. Of course, I knew that the part about the Tower of Babel and the Jaredites was wrong even as a scout.

One of the main reasons that turned me from TBM to exmormon was the control they had over my oldest two children. It scared me.

One simple example. My daughter had a totally appropriate dress for a school dance. It completely met the stringent Utah high school dress code. It, however, was just short of a capped sleeve (I don't know what that style is called). She refused to wear it and cried a lot of tears because of how a middle aged man(Bishop) would judge her. That few centimeters of missing fabric was the difference that would decide her virtue. Nothing my Wife or I could do get through, the conditioning from church was so strong.

That, and other examples sent my wife and I on a mission to save our family. I am happy to report it worked.

I fear for those left behind at the level of control that will be exerted on their boys as they hasten the work.

So far no announcements during Sacrement or Priesthood yet...Maybe they're waiting to say something at October's General Conference!????Although I've noticed in my ward's Priesthood opening exercises less and less Scouting reports since the BSA announcement in July...