Last February, I made a joke on facebook about Joseph Smith's seer stone. To illustrate my joke, I linked to these depictions/photos of the stones:

https://www.google.com/search?q=joseph+smith+seer+stone+photos&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CB4QsARqFQoTCKKlld__n8cCFYomHgodhP0A4w&biw=1344&bih=707

One of my TBM sisters responded in a typically indignant and ignorant Mormon manner. She knows absolutely nothing about Joseph Smith's 1820s peep-stoning practices, nor about the accounts which stated that Smith produced the BOM by "peering into a hat." I'm posting her comments here in light of the recent news about the seer stone and the publication of a photo of it. My sister's remarks are amusing considering the amount of research I've done into Mormon origins and history over the last 18 years. She's 64 years old, and her remarks show just how little she knows about the founding of the religion she believes so strongly in:


Randy, I really think you should be more respectful of those people in your family who believe the way that your own mother and grandparents and great-grandparents believed in the Prophet, Joseph Smith. I know you and Carrie have some problems with the Church, but those are your problems. They should not be used to try to embarrass, hurt, or humiliate those of us who have a testimony of the truth of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, as you once had before you got to thinking that you were more knowledgeable than the rest of us in the family. You know I don't want to cause any problems between us, because you are one of the few siblings I have left that I can still relate to and have a decent conversation with to where I won't end up in an argument. I am asking you to please not make fun of something that some of us consider to be precious. You know, all of these "facts" you present will all come out in the wash someday and ALL of us will know what the real truth is. The only FACT I need to know is that a man of Joseph Smith's lack of formal schooling could never have produced the writings that he did by "peering into a hat." I'm surprised you even give this idiocy any credence, as smart as you are. I just gave you and Carrie a public compliment about your singing and you come back with this hurtful, stupid comment. I have never gone after you for your decision to leave the Church, because that is your choice. I love you as the brother that I helped raise and helped learn all the missionary discussions and who wrote you and received letters back from you with your own testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel while you were on your mission. I'm writing you in this private message because I don't want to embarrass either one of us. This matter is very personal and private to me and you are making a joke out of it. Perhaps you should read, if you haven't, the book "Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith." It's one thing to not believe in him. It's another thing altogether when you make fun or attempt to persecute him and sully his name. Your mother is probably crying at this moment, if that means anything to you. I love you and this does not change the way I feel about you. Please take these comments in the way they are intended - to let you know that you are hurting my feelings when you belittle what I believe in with all my heart. Joseph Smith never claimed to be a perfect man and I'm sure there were a lot of things in the beginnings of the Church that took a lot of understanding and sorting out.

randyj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They should not be used to try to
> embarrass, hurt, or humiliate those of us who have
> a testimony of the truth of the coming forth of
> the Book of Mormon, as you once had before you got
> to thinking that you were more knowledgeable than
> the rest of us in the family.

Yep, there it is--the passive-aggressive insult. They can't
avoid it because they don't even realize they're doing it.
That's the fantasy world they live in.

This might be a great time to respond to your sister. Explain to her that yes, you may have been out of line before. You didn't know how to express yourself before but you were not lying then and the church has now allowed it to "come out in the wash".

Follow that up with the fact that you would like to have an open dialogue with her on other things she once or still believes that may just be folklore.

Hate to say it but it doesn't sound like sis is mentally capable of even beginning to comprehend the significance of what the chuchco just did in publishing the photo of the rock. Retardation running a muck in your family? Maybe you can help her but most likely not. Probably best to just hit the delete button rather than reading her diatribe. Sorry...

"Hate to say it but it doesn't sound like sis is mentally capable of even beginning to comprehend the significance of what the chuchco just did in publishing the photo of the rock. Retardation running a muck in your family?"

That sister isn't the most mentally or emotionally healthy person on the planet, but as far as the subject of Mormon origins and history is concerned, she's no more ignorant or deluded than the vast majority of active TBMs. Years ago, I debated numerous TBMs who were just as ignorant and deluded.

"Maybe you can help her but most likely not."

I never bothered to respond to her post, primarily because it would take me down a never-ending path which would take too much of my time. I would have wound up having to unlearn her everything she's ever learned about Mormonism throughout her 64 years, and re-teach her the correct facts. Ain't nobody got time fuh dat.

Also, this sister had a son die in a tragic accident at age 13, and she's looking forward to being with him again in the celestial klingon. If I destroy her belief in Mormonism, that will take away her hope of being with him. So in this case, I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.

BTW I think the term you want to use in your comment above is "run amok."

This makes me so mad at the church. There are such trusting and kind people who were purposely deceived.

Do you think she knows about the recent photos of the rock?

"Do you think she knows about the recent photos of the rock?"

She probably does, because one of my other TBM sisters "liked" an article about it on FB. Of course, neither sister will understand the significance of the news unless they study the issue like we here have.

Ugh. If they could only count all the insults they fling out while not insulting us... =)

Stop making your mother cry Randy! Not after your singing has been complimented!

What would happen if you sent that to sis as an attachment to the church/rock announcement, and hi-lighted the rock reference? Are you still mocking everyone?

" The only FACT I need to know is that a man of Joseph Smith's lack of formal schooling could never have produced the writings that he did by "peering into a hat.""

Oops.
So much for her facts.

In an oblique way, though, she's right -- he didn't produce it that way. He just conned others into believing he did.

Just like she got conned.

Oops again.

https://kutv.com/resources/media/c91c3d93-de7e-41f1-0fce-271173a76681-KUTV_local_SeerStone_080415.JPG?1438723717422

My husband asked if these were the Urim and Scrotum?

Oh my word! That's what they are!!! Lol!

Twice LOL. And to think my naturally dirty mind missed that one!

The claims made in the book, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," have been thoroughly debunked by TBM's, including Apostle Dallin H. Oaks:

"A persistent Utah myth holds that some of the murderers of Joseph and Hyrum Smith met fittingly gruesome deaths - that Providence intervened to dispense the justice denied in the Carthage trial. But the five defendants who went to trial, including men who had been shown to be leaders in the murder plot and others associated with them, enjoyed notably successful careers." - Oaks, Dallin H. and Hill, Marvin S., The Carthage Conspiracy. Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1979., 217. [As quoted at: http://www.holyfetch.com/talk_faves/mob_deaths.html ]


The "Deseret News" carried a story that confirmed the bogus nature of that book:

"Debra Marsh, a master's student at the University of Utah, presented evidence Friday that the members of the Illinois mob that sought to put an end to Mormonism at Carthage Jail didn't rot away because of 'the Mormon curse,' as N.B. Lundwall claimed in his book, 'The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith,' but went on to live normal lives. ... 'The Carthage mob members lived normal life spans, through which they prospered financially,' Marsh said. 'They ran for and won political office, and generally appear to be protected and honored by their fellow citizens for their participation in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.'"

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705377262/A-different-take-on-the-Carthage-mob----BYU-Studies-Symposium.html?pg=all

"The claims made in the book, "The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith," have been thoroughly debunked by TBM's, including Apostle Dallin H. Oaks"

You know that, and I know that, but very few TBMs, including my sister, know that.

Ironically, when I began studying my way out of the church around 1997, I took some of my mother's old Mormon books from her house. (She was about 80 at the time, and she would never read them again. I figured I had as much a right to them as any other relative did.) Among the books were "The Story of the Pearl of Great Price," "Mormonism and the Negro," "The Fallacy," and "Fate of the Persecutors." I read "Fate" and noted some of the wild assertions it made about Joseph Smith's enemies etc. Shortly thereafter, I read Oaks' and other Mormon writers' debunkings. But here we are almost two decades later, and my poor TBM sister is still citing "Fate" as though it was a credible source.

One time I worked for a company in Utah and at lunch a group of TBMs would get together and take turns reading "The Fate of the Persecutors" to the group.

The rest of us thought they were just plain nuts and wondered how they could eat their lunch without choking!

Those in the mob who killed Joe lived just fine. Same as those who lynched the black man in Price Utah last Century. Many knew who they were but none were ever arrested or tried for the crime.

SuperDell, could you enlighten me on the lynching in Price, I have not heard about this.

They get offended and hurt because they must know somewhere deep down their beliefs make little sense. I can't think of any other reason people with the truth would ever get so offended.

'coming forth of the Book of Mormon'... Mormons still talk like this.

this relative obviously has read little to nothing. And the book 'Fate of the persecutors of Joseph Smith' was debunked long, long ago. She is quite simply wallowing in ignorance.

This reminds me a bit of what the Stake President and other Senior local church members said to me when i left the Church! All emotions, no facts, As i said to them , THIS IS SERIOUS, it has nothing to do with, well the church does good, or its helpful in life. Its not just another church! It claims to be the ONLY true Church, the ONLY one with authority! Unique claims need unigue evidence! Not it will all come out in the wash! If JS used peep stones to translate the BOM, the same stones to find buried treasure this is SERIOUS, it is not a joke. It undermines the whole foundation of the church! Its not just another church, its either the only TRUE church or its not!

So true.

You'd expect that if it was the one true church, that you'd come across more things that were beautiful, amazing and insightful, rather than so many things that are sleazy or creepy feeling and inexplicable.

Has anyone ever put together a list of all the uncomfortable facts currently residing in the LDS laundry basket?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2015 08:58AM by seekyr.

Right, "Coming out" in this wash will take loads of bleach, or something. Why not just throw this reeking pile away?

brb ~ scoring Britboy's TBM sister @ home


yep ~ she's typical morgbot


Joseph Smith : 4

Jesus Christ : 0

The usual mormon double standard, they are free to gush about whatever magical idea that pops into their mind, but you aren't allowed to express your ideas.

"Sis, you don't know how much it hurts me when you suggest that I make mother cry. I'm sure if you know how much it hurts me, you would never do that, but instead, respect my feelings toward mother..." But of course you'd never say that.

randyj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
They should not be used to try to
> embarrass, hurt, or humiliate those of us who have
> a testimony of the truth of the coming forth of
> the Book of Mormon....

The only way someone could be embarrassed about the truth of the creation of the BOM is that they realize how ridiculous it is. If she doesn't want to be embarrassed, don't believe ridiculous things.

It's like someone saying "I believe the world is flat, and I know how ridiculous that sounds, so don't embarrass me by saying it is actually round."

Last night, my wife and I had dinner with Eric and Kathy K. Even though we live only 100 miles apart, we hadn't seen each other for 7-8 years. We talked about a lot of this Mormon stuff, some of which reminded me of my sister's comments above.

One of the saddest things in my life is that I have so much knowledge about the true origins of Mormonism, but I can't just come out and share it with my TBM relatives, because it would tear apart the lives of some of the more emotionally fragile ones. I mean, I could sit and tell someone the true story of Mormonism's founding in ten minutes---how Joseph Smith began his public career as a frontier folk-magician, and how he switched his con to religion and the Golden Bible because of his 1826 "glass-looker" court incident. I could point them to the 1830-31 newspaper articles which detailed how it all went down. I could show them Craig Criddle's research on the Spaulding-Rigdon theory. I could show them the testimonies of Smith's relatives and friends who all averred that Smith "translated" the BOM by looking into the stone in his hat, as opposed to using "two stones in silver bows, fastened to a breastplate." I could point them to all the evidence of source material Smith borrowed from to create the BOM---Spaulding, "View of the Hebrews," "The Late War," even the Bible, etc.

But the problem is, what happens to those TBMs when I tell them all of this? Years ago, I spoke with one of my Ex-Mo nephews who is a Baptist deacon. My late oldest sister, his mother, was the most Nazi-TBM in our family. My nephew humorously noted that there's a "wall of silence" in discussing things with TBM relatives---sorta like the "Cone of Silence" in "Get Smart"---where you just can't say certain things about Mormonism to Mormons. I've tried to talk to some of them. They'll chat about humorous Mormon-related stuff, and they'll share Mormon gossip; but when you bring up anything serious about the foundations of the church, they'll protest "Don't you say anything bad about Joseph Smith!" (or The Book of Mormon.) It's just cray-cray that you can't tell members of a religion true facts *about* their religion. It's as though they know that if you start telling them the facts, it will take them down the river of no return.

Two weeks ago, on Easter weekend, we saw my sister I discussed in the OP and her hubby at our annual Easter family gathering. We stayed at the same motel. Easter Sunday morning, we sat in the motel lobby having our morning coffee and breakfast, preparing for the 5-hour drive back home. Sis and her hubby (they are 64 and 70) came into the lobby dressed in their finest Easter Sunday clothes, ready to go to church at the chapel just down the road. We chatted and said our goodbyes. I don't know if I'll ever see that sister again. She's just had breast cancer, is going through chemo, and was wearing a full wig.

Shortly after we left the church in 1998, we chatted with another former ward member who had recently left as well. He said, "You know, the Joseph Smith story is a beautiful story, if it was true. It's a beautiful lie. Unfortunately, a lot of people would rather believe a beautiful lie than the ugly truth."

I know what you mean about not saying certain things around TBM's of the family. Its a lot like talking about Santa Clause in hushed tones at Christmas time around the kids.

Randy, though I am a nevermo, I can relate to what you are saying about not being able to share your knowledge of Mormon history with TBM relatives.

Granted, I have not done the years of research that you have; but since marrying my TBM wife three years ago, I have climbed upon the proverbial shoulders of you and others in your fearless search for the sometimes ugly truth.

So often I have bitten my tongue in response to something my wife casually throws out that I know to be false. But it is her sincerity in what she says that stays my tongue, because I don't want to be the one bring her faith crashing down as though it were a house of cards.

She knows that I don't believe anything that comes out of TSCC, which she knew before we married; and we have agreed to disagree, focusing more on what we have in common. I cannot force her to know what I have learned, but I have let her know that my own research (and by extension, yours) is available should she ever have questions of her own.

I wonder if Mormonism has turned into a form of nihilism where nothing really matters, especially the truth.

Call me crazy, but I think truth matters.

" Unfortunately, a lot of people would rather believe a beautiful lie than the ugly truth."

That "Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith" turns out just to be bullshit stories, all proven to be untrue. Like that Governor Boggs was eaten by worms as he was still alive, and all that. They were just stories invented and perpetuated by Mormons, with little or no truth to them. So she's threatening you with a book that is totally false. Maybe she should threaten you instead with "you need to read the 'Book of Mormon,'" instead of some book that is just bullshit.

Wait a minute...

It is true, if people are presented with the Book of Mormon in its current form and are told point blank that an uneducated teenager (or whatever they say now) wrote this book without help...people would say that is impossible. The problem is...the original 1830 version..that had been HEAVILY edited prior to the first print has over 150 years of additional corrections/scrub..with at LEAST 50% of the contents copied verbatim from the Bible.

People are just not being told the truth when it comes to the BOM. Cant blame your sister for being lied to every week at church.

If the REAL facts of the BOM were disclosed in Conference..then most of the people would just walk out and leave.