I left the Church about three years ago. My wife and kids are all still active. My oldest son is 16. When I left the Church, I had a couple of brief chats with him about why I left, but he quickly told me that he didn’t want to hear anything negative about the Church. I have honored that request, and since that day, he and I had not discussed religion at all. We have a good, close relationship, and have discussions about a variety of topics on a regular basis, but we don’t bring up religion. He goes to Church and does his thing; I stay home from Church and do my thing; and we have a mutual respect for each other’s beliefs.

Shortly after I left the Church, I told the bishop that I wanted him to agree to the following conditions regarding holding interviews with my kids:

1) I wanted to be present at all interviews. He, or other Church leaders, could not interview any of my kids without me present.
2) He could not ask any of my kids any question related to sexuality except “Do you live the law of chastity?”

The bishop agreed, and I have sat in on all of my kids’ interviews with priesthood leaders. I think this has been very beneficial. None of my kids have seemed to mind having me there, and I like hearing the counsel they’re getting.

A couple of days ago, my 16-year-old son and I were home alone together. We were talking about various things, and then he said he had something to ask me. He wanted to know why I left the Church, so that he could know the details and figure out for himself whether he wanted to stay in the Church or not. This came as a bit of a surprise. He’s been a model Mormon boy. He was deacons quorum president and teacher’s quorum president. Several people have raved to me about the amazing talks he gives in Church. He was even invited to speak in a Stake Priesthood meeting. He’s given every indication that he plans on going on a mission and attending BYU.

So I shared with him a little about my journey out of the Church, and discussed briefly some of the main issues that caused me to no longer believe. I told him that there was a period of time, shortly after I left the Church, that I had a great desire for the rest of my family to leave the Church as well, but that I no longer felt that way. Whatever he felt would make him happy, I would be supportive. I asked him what he thought about what I had shared, and he said that it would be pretty hard to argue against some of the evidence I had brought up, but he wanted to sleep on it.

The next day was Sunday, and he stayed after Church for a little while. He said that their lesson in priests quorum that day was, coincidentally, about struggling with issues related to Church history. The bishop was teaching the lesson, and he said that the young men should feel free to talk with him about any concerns they had. After the meeting was over, my son approached the bishop and said that he had just talked to his dad the night before about Church history stuff, and he had some questions. So the bishop met with him for about 30 minutes right after church.

My son talked with me later that day about his conversation with the bishop. He said the bishop didn’t have much time, but they talked a little about how Satan was trying to lead him away from the truth, and that he should focus on studying the scriptures and praying. He said that he was planning on meeting with the bishop again in a couple of weeks.

It was later that I realized that the bishop had not abided by our agreement that he never meet with our kids without me present. But I kind of think I’m OK with my son talking with the bishop without me. My son had requested the meeting (instead of the bishop calling him in for a worthiness interview). My son is genuinely trying to figure out his religious beliefs, and I don’t want him to think I’m trying to sway him to my way of thinking by insisting that I be present during his chat with the bishop.

I think I’m going to email the bishop, telling him that I’m OK with him meeting with my son about this topic. I’ll ask (insist, in fact) that nothing of a sexual nature be discussed without me there, but that I’m fine with my son getting another perspective on religion from someone with different views than his dad.

Any thoughts? Is it wise to allow my son to meet alone with the bishop under these circumstances?

I think you handled it very well.
My only concern, based on past experience, is that in the talks with the bishop, your son largely won't get discussions about difficult issues. He'll get "toe the line, don't question" instructions, possibly including "don't talk to your dad about this stuff" instructions. Seems it's already headed that way, with the "satan" comments he got.
If your son is mature enough to continue to talk to you after such "dire warnings," then it's all good. If not, if being led away by "satan" scares him, this could be an issue.

I hope for the best.

ExmoDad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Any thoughts? Is it wise to allow my son to meet
> alone with the bishop under these circumstances?

Sounds like your son is done with the church. Once the question is allowed to appear in the mind, "What if the church isn't true?" it is only a matter of time.

I'd let my son meet with the bishop in the circumstances you mention. But I'd also do so only if I was able to have frank and open discussions with my son beforehand. So a kind of trade deal. He gets to meet with the bishop without you, and you get to actually really talk to him about the problems with the church.

It would also give you an opportunity to plant the seed that every budding apostate should have in their mind before meeting with a member who is going to try and convince them to stay.
Two things:

1. "Is that the best you can do?" Which should be an automatic response to almost every answer given by the bishop, because you know he has no answers
2. "Why do you attack the messenger, or the source, rather than actually address the issue, or the question?"

If you prepare whim with those two points he'll see right through the bishop pretty quick.


Edit: Having a read a post below I'm updating my opinion.
What is the difference between the bishop asking your son personal questions about sex, versus the bishop telling your son he is being influenced by Satan?

Are you happy the bishop tells your son he is being influenced by Satan? Are you happy that there is a link between Satan and you, since you can be accused of influencing him? Are you happy that in effect you are the equivalent of Satan and the bishop is telling him that?

There is more to the Mormon abuse system than sexual interrogations on worthiness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 01:40PM by scotslander.

At 16, it's reasonable for your son to work things out without a parent monitoring his every thought and every interaction. You have communicated your concerns to the bishop, and it appears that he has been respectful of your wishes. I certainly would not make an issue of the fact that your son initiated contact with the bishop without your presence -- that is not the same as a "worthiness" interview.

I think it's good to give your son the space and respect he needs to work through this on his own. You can guide and influence him without being the ever-present thought police.

You are walking the same razor's edge I am.

The kids could go either way regardless of how well it is handled when they know that you love them. If I were a jerk I know I could push them deeper into Mormonism. If I were too accommodating to the Mormons I'm interacting with I could send the message that Mormonism is an okay belief system.

My kids know I don't think it is an okay belief system and the historical problems really get to me...

Good luck and best wishes.

I believe your son is trying to assert himself and make grown up decisions. It is a Mormon Rumspringa regardless of the Mormon programs. I believe they lowered the age to come closer to this period of questioning. Get them as excited about missions as early as possible making a clear distinction about the sexual roles of adults in having young women leave later.

They are evil.

I would sit him down in front of the computer and let him read the CES letter, or just browse through MormonThink before he talks to the Bishop again.

Tell him that the only way that he can truly find out what he believes for himself is to examine all sides of the story. If you're going to dismiss something (like so-called Anti-Mormon material) then you should at least examine that thing instead of deciding that it's all lies without even knowing what it actually says.

^^^This^^^

+1

Pardon my ignorance the CES letter?

Here you go Goodeye :)
http://cesletter.com

Yeah I realized it was a site after posting (doh!).

Got it bookmarked to review later thanks!

We're you really bring honest with your son in the first place?

It seems to me that exmos with family still in the church are coerced into becoming ok with the church after a period when they quite desperately want them Out of the cult.

It's do tragic how family has to conform or be cast out.

But your son is still a minor.

You should enforce your original instructions for the bishop, and be in on ALL DISCUSSIONS.

I imagine that the bishop is trying very hard to separate your son from you.

You should have stuck to your guns.

It's not too late.

Ream that bishop a new asshole for going against your parental rights.

Your son can do what he wants when he's an adult.

Just my humble opinion with limited information.

By the way, your son is being indoctrinated by sexual sadists to believe that masturbation is evil, and a sexual sin. And sexual sins in Mormonism are second only to murder.

He is also being brainwashed to believe that the sexual thoughts that are bombarding his pubescent brain are the same as sexual acts in the eyes of god, and he is condemned for having them.

Mormonism = Child Abuse

It's my impression that authority figures in the church do not have the answers to the questions they get asked regarding the church's foundational issues. It takes a peculiar mind to be able to outfit a tapir to be ridden into battle or to pull a gold-plated chariot. Thankfully, such minds are rare.

So your son's report of the bishop's brief response is the chief buttress: Don't doubt! Don't ask questions! Just read the scriptures and pray!!

Figuring out that the church is not what it claims to be (at any point during its constant morphing) is not hard. What's hard is figuring out what to do next. The majority of us didn't have any experience NOT being mormon, and we knew if we turned our back on the known world, they might turn their backs on us, and we'd be that most abhorrent thing possible: Alone. Scary shit, man!

Anyway, he's not going to get any concrete information to counter the errors found in the mormon record, simply because that's what they are. It was made up as they went along, and the old RLDS finally gave up pretending! All the bishop or the SP or any of the old fogeys can do is harp on the 'doubt your doubts' theme; that's all they have! Believe it, they urge, not because it can be shown to be true, but because we testify that you'll be better off for it! And we do so in Jesus name, so yeah, there ya go! Who you gonna believe? Us or your lying eyes and brain!!!

I'd say your son is on his way out. And while you're not actively helping him, your example is passive support. It's my personal opinion that you leave him alone to figure it out, cuz you know who can theoretically marry Helen Marr Kimball? Your son! By our current standards, he's a kid, but by nature's standard there's only prepubescent and post-pubescent.

And later, when people (your wife?) accuse you of leading him astray, you can tell them that he did it all himself, and smile. If they counter that you served as a role model, you can respond that there were plenty of mormon role models available...

Either way he goes, you're coming across as a great dad.

You're getting a lot of contradictory advice here. I happen to think you are handling things well.

I do think you should explain to your son that the truth has no need or reason to hide and God gave him is ability to reason for a reason.

That threats About Satan trying to mislead him are just efforts to keep him from doing an honest investigation into ugly things the church doesn't want him to see.


I think it's fair to say that trying to limit a person's freedom and access to information is a very cult-like behavior.

You can explain that before the internet, the church denied most of what is in their own essays and called that information anti-mormon material from Satan. Now that they can't control access to that information, they are trying to defend something that just isn't defendable to a reasonable mind.

Tell him to trust his mind and continue to tell him you will love him regardless whatever he decides.

You have to look at this with a very long game perspective. And you can't be seen as being too forceful in trying to get him out.

He's already inching out the door. Just be there for him and try to maintain your relationships with your wife and the rest of the family.

As far as the bishop goes, I think you're okay there, too. Again, his answers are not going to be satisfactory to your son.

Good luck...keep us posted!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 04:01PM by leftfield.

^^^^This

Thanks for the feedback. Here’s a brief update.

First of all, a side note: My wife and our four other children are currently out-of-town. My brother is getting married in a neighboring state. My wife took our four youngest kids with her a couple of weeks early to spend time with extended family. My 16-year-old son and I stayed home so we both could work, and we’re driving out to join them in a few days. Perhaps it was the fact that we’ve spent a bit of time alone together the last few days that prompted him to ask about why I left the Church.

This morning when I arrived at work, I sent my son an email with a link to MormonThink.com and CESLetter.com. I had mentioned these websites to him, not really encouraging him to go there, but just as a resource in case he wanted to learn more about the topics. He called me a few minutes ago, and said that he had just finished reading the entire CES Letter. I asked him what he thought, and he said it was very interesting. I told him if he ever wanted to talk about any of those issues, I’d be happy to do so.

We have an eight-hour drive together coming up in a few days, so we’ll have plenty of time to talk, if he so desires. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. A few years ago, shortly after I left the Church, I would have been ecstatic that he was interested in finding out about these issues, and desperately hoping that he’d come to the conclusion that it’s all a fraud. I no longer feel that way. I just want him to figure things out in his own time, and choose whichever path in life that will make him happy, and help him become a good person and a contributing member of society.

I do think that what he chooses to do will have an impact on his younger siblings. They all look up to him, and I think they'll be more inclined to follow the same path he takes.

I'm rooting for your son! This is great!

A curiosity question, if I may...

Is there one or are there several TBMs that he might be said to look up to? Would he consider your wife to be a 'mormon scholar' or does he already figure that she'll just tell him he can't leave the church and to pray harder?

Does he have a 'going steady' girlfriend, and if so, what influence might she have on him?

Are you in Zion, and will his upcoming school year, with seminary, be a factor? Are his closest buddies seemingly TBM? Does he have any no-mo friends?

What kind of a balancing act might he be thinking he's got to perform if he does want out of mo'ism?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 04:03PM by elderolddog.

We don’t live in Utah. Around 2% of the population in our area is LDS. Most of the kids he hangs out with are Mormons. Interestingly, he has a steady girlfriend who is not LDS. He really likes her, and he’s mentioned a few times that he really hopes she joins the Church. Most in their group of friends are LDS, so she is quite familiar with the Mormon culture. She attends church dances and other activities with her Mormon friends. So I’m not sure exactly how he would be affected within his peer group if he were to leave the Church. I imagine there would be some negative consequences like some of his friends looking down on him because of his decision. Or maybe he would lose his belief, but keep attending Church and Church activities to be with friends. I don’t know.

He knows that his mom is a very firm believer, but that her knowledge of Church history, especially the controversial aspects, is very limited. She has told him that she does not want to learn about any of the issues that caused me to no longer believe. So he can talk with his mom about her beliefs and she can bear her testimony about how much the gospel blesses her life, but he can’t discuss any controversial issues with her. Perhaps that is why he wants to talk with the bishop. The bishop doesn’t have an extremely deep knowledge of the difficult aspects of Church history, but he’s familiar with most of them. I had a few discussions with him when I was on my way out.

Out of all of the other members of our extended family, every one of his aunts, uncles, and grandparents are TBM, with the exception of one of my brothers. So there was extreme disappointment among all of them when I left the Church (I left before my brother did, so I was the first one to go astray). My relationship with my in-laws is still a bit rocky because of it. I’m sure my son has noticed that, and he knows that his grandparents on both sides (as well as his uncles and aunts) will be disappointed if he leaves the Church. On my side, he is the oldest grandchild. Several of my siblings have commented about what a great young man my son is, and how great it is that their kids have an older cousin who is setting such a good example for their kids.

I’m sure all of the above is immense pressure for him to stay in the Church. It was for me. I lost my belief in the Church seven years before I resigned. It was a miserable seven years, especially towards the end, but I knew how difficult it would be to leave because of the ramifications within our family. And I was right. But it’s so much better now living an authentic life.

I don’t know what my son will do. If he ends up not believing in the Church, maybe he’ll stick it out until he graduates from high school, and then stop attending. He’s been talking about wanting to go to BYU for a while, but several weeks ago, he mentioned the possibility of maybe going to Stanford or MIT or some other top school (he has the grades and ACT scores for it). Or maybe he’ll decide that he likes the Mormon culture, and he just wants to stay in the Church for that. There are certainly a lot more factors in that decision than just what one believes the truth to be.

Thanks for the info.

I remember thinking that despite being mostly an atheist, living a mormon life was probably the best thing I could possibly do.

I was wrong. It's a crap life.

if he isn't an "adult" yet. If I ever get my daughter back out, it will be by being patient and caring about what she thinks and feels. I was here once. She doesn't want to believe that. She thinks she is doing things different than her mother did. She is following my footsteps. I have to let her make her own choices. My parents allowed me to. I have 3 siblings who left the church in their teens and my parents never ostracized them. They always loved us all no matter what.

I think you are handling it well. It does blow my mind that he read the whole CES letter already! That is positive.

The direct links are on the top of the board. I think that coming straight from LDSInc they have the most impact.

I agree with Susan. Let the church sink their own ship.

Does your son want to know if the church is what it claims to be?

I would show him where he can find information. Let him decide without you and the bishop the bishop getting into a tug of war.

Myself, I would absolutely ban the bishop from talking to him alone. I think it's wrong that he's already implied YOU are helping satan out. Sixteen year olds can be manipulated. Especially by an authority figure that claims his authority is from God, and that he can receive revelation for your son. This puts the bish in the position of being the "all knowing", while you are viewed by the bish as not knowing much.

My step-son was very close to the bishop when son was in HS. We never pressured him to go on a mission, get married in the temple etc. even though we ourselves were TBM at the time. In hind sight we regret letting that bishop have so much sway in sons life. He went on a mission, came home and was married months later to someone he'd just met. Him and his wife are extreme TBM. It's really heart breaking to watch his tiny kids get indoctrinated before they can even talk! IMO that bishop meddled in areas he had no business meddling in.He was painting us (the parents) as not quite as righteous as we should be. He was painting himself as the wise bishop with righteous knowledge. We didn't know until it was too late just how much pressure he was putting on our son. Don't let this happen with you and your son.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 04:30PM by madalice.

you expected a mormon bishop to abide by an agreement ?

ExmoDad,

Bravo. You are giving your son a gift that will last him thru out his life. The encouragement to THINK on his own. To not be afraid to ask questions. To not be afraid of *thinking*.

I was irritated that the bishop brought in the whole idea of Satan was trying lure your son away from the church. But that is all Mormons have to default to, since they can't answer question.

If the opportunity arises, you can tell your son that yes, there are questions in life that there are no real answers to. BUT, there are a lot of questions that DO have answers. And many of the questions that lead you out of the church had answers to them. It had nothing to do with Satan. (insert eyeroll over bishop's comment)

You seem to be doing a fine job, given the circumstances.

However, I would like to suggest that you not continue to let the bishop put you and satan in the same frame. The whole Mormon trick of using satan as a bargaining chip is a sad and destructive bit of manipulation to begin with.

But beyond that, you need to find a way to help your son fight off the insinuations that information which comes from you is information from satan. It can be immensely damaging to let someone convince your child that listening to you is equivalent to listening to satan. And don't fool yourself. That is exactly what is going on here.

That would be a prime reason that I would not ever let my child talk with such a bishop without my presence. If you are there, the bishop will have to think twice before playing the satan card. And you will be able counter such terribly damaging manipulation. Give facts and sources. Let them both know that truth is not evil.

If you feel that it would damage your relationship with your son to insist on being present in conversations with the bishop, you need to find a way to counter this insidious brainwashing that the bishop is giving him. Seriously, this is the sort of thing that makes it so awful to allow children to be raised in the Mormon church.

Point out that if "church history" is true, then the bishop has no reason to discourage your child from asking questions. He does not want your son to do any research or critical thinking. Which could lead to discovering a whole mess of lies. The satan crack the bishop made was an easy copout. Satan scares the hell out of people if they believe in it.
I think you should be present at those mtgs to inform bishop you are not influenced by satan.
Its good your son is asking questions. When he has examined proof or lack thereof, he will come around.

I agree with madalice that you should never let the bishop talk to him alone. That gives them too much power.

Also, has your son had his patriarchal blessing? They managed to scare the sh/t out of my son with that.

What if he wants to give your son a "blessing"?

I'd say no and hell no!!!

where else is he going to practice that? leave him be. If he
qualifies for Stanford he can figure it out himself. he's 16 and doesn't need dad monitoring his talks with bishop. that's
humiliating

You know what else is humiliating? Confronting your 16 year olds drug dealer. Except the Bishop & what he's pushing is worse. Plus, the boy doesn't mind Dad being there. Have you ever had kids?

Agreed. A 16 year old gets to make decisions about talking to people. To cavalierly override him is humiliating.

Your a great dad!

"My son talked with me later that day about his conversation with the bishop. He said the bishop didn’t have much time, but they talked a little about how Satan was trying to lead him away from the truth, and that he should focus on studying the scriptures and praying. He said that he was planning on meeting with the bishop again in a couple of weeks."

Funny how mormon church leaders want you to -study- scriptures, but never really want you to, or even mention...to LEARN something from their scriptures. I'm a guessin' there's nothing really to learn.

Bishop...I have read all of the scriptures and studies them many times, but am having serious doubts because of:
JS polygamy.
Mark Hoffman FUBAR.
Blacks in the church...
What do you recommend for me to get past these issues??

(bsihop speaking..) Pray more..pray HARDER..."study"..more..





I don't get how there are any smart mormons at all, with that kind of spiritual counsel they keep getting..

The fact that he read the whole CES letter is good news. Point out to him that although he has been taught his whole life that faith, prayer, and soul-searching is the way to learn the truth, that is not always the best or most reliable way. In this case in particular that letter is full of sources and references he can look up himself to learn the truth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2015 07:53PM by othersteve.

"Point out to him that although he has been taught his whole life that faith, prayer, and soul-searching is the way to learn the truth, that is not always the best or most reliable way."

Exactly!! If the kid is smart enough to get into MIT or Stanford, he should grasp this. Ask him if his Mom or sibling was deathly ill, would you want them to see a doctor that was very faithful in prayer & spirit, or one that studied facts & graduated in the top of his class in Med school.

I was in a similar situation as your son. My parents didn't know how to intervene between me and the bishop and because of this, they allowed the bishop way too much control of me and my situation.

Inwardly I was wanting (begging) them to step forward, and help bale me from the turbid Mormon waters. The bishop had all of us scared for various reasons. Using the argument that Satan was doing all he could to take us away from truth, Gawd, light, etc..

Lot's of reason's probably came into play but bottom line, my folks did not step up and help me out. There was no INTERNET in those days and very limited ways to dig and/or find the underside of the cult so I really don't blame my folks. They did the best they knew how but, oh how I wish they would have simply took me aside and told me mo more visit's with the bishop until I was an adult. I so wish I would have stood up to the bishop and his counsels.

I wish you and your son the best. I do think that the bell has been rung and that he will exit the church - if not now, soon. Just let him know that you have his back and that you love him. He sounds like a great guy and you are too.

Before emailing the bish, why not ask your son whether he wants you there or not? You can let your son know about your prohibition that the bish not discuss sexual matters with him,etc. The concern is once you open the door for private chats with your son, it will be impossible to close again if the bish veers into sexual or other categories you don't want your son exposed to. If your son still wants private discussions with the bish, you might want to email the bish that your son is still a minor and both he and your son are subject to your direction as a parent. That way, your son is respected but the bish is notified to continue toeing your line, plus you have documentation of your directions via email.