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Now chatting with Cassie
Now chatting with Emily

C
Hey Hall! how can we help you today?

H
I was born Mormon but never really took it all that seriously. Now that I'm about to have kids I am seriously considering coming back to church, but I just have some doctrinal issues I need to clarify before I do. Can you help me with my questions?
E
Of Course!! How can we help?

H
The main issue I have is with the new essay the church published "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" have you read it yet?

C
Not yet, would you be willing to fill us in?
H
It says that Joseph Smith married 12-14 women who were already married to other men. Were you aware of that?

C
I was:) I can completely understand why you would be concerned about that doctrine
H
And 14 year old girls, when he was 36. That's child rape where I come from. How did he marry women who were already married? What law permitted that?

E
That is a hard concept to wrap our heads around sometimes, a lot of the women back them were widowed and needed someone to take care of them, that is why he married so many, not simply to just for earthly pleasures.

C
also one thing we need to put in context is the time frame.. While thinking of marrying a 14 year old is horrifying today, it was more commonly accepted in those times

H
Those women all had husbands already, obviously, if they were married when Joseph married them. So they didn't need help with houshold chores. Again, what law permitted Joseph and Brigham to claim other men's wives as their own? Can you think of one? I never heard of one. So they were not married to Joseph and Brigham, they were just concubines, while they were married to their real husbands. Isn't that just plain old fashiond wife swapping if they made babies with other men's wives? One of them, Zina Huntington Jacobs, was married to her only REAL husband, Henry Jacobs, and 7mo. pregnant with Henry's son, when Joseph Smith came and asked her to marry him, which she did. Then when he died, Brigham Young claimed poor Henry's wife again, after sending him off on a mission to England. That's horrible. it ruined his marriage, his family and his life. Do Mormons not care about what Brigham and Joseph did to poor Henry and Zina Jacobs family? I do. Oh, and Brigham had a child with Zina. It's even on LDS.org's website. Google Zina Huntington Jacobs and it will pop up. Is there any excuse for that kind of behavior? Just curious. I was a missionary once. And I don't know how I'd answer that question back then. But now that it's common knowledge, which the church has published, I'd think they'd prepare you to answer questions like this.

C
you bring up a very good point. So if we're looking into the Doctrine.. Some were married for time, and others were married for eternity. There were different things that happened with different situations. At the time, they had just come out with the sealing ordinances of the Gospel, and which stated that you needed to live righteously with your spouse to obtain the Celestial kingdom, I've read several of those accounts, or accounts similar to the ones you were reading and Its lead me to conclude that at the time the Doctrine probably wasn't clarified and that they didn't know that you can still obtain Salvation if you spouse makes unrighteous decisions.. so it was IMPORTANT for them to be sealed to someone who was worthy and righteous. And yeah.. mormons do care.. its a really sad deal they had to go through that.. and I'm SURE that it was a heart wrenching experience for Zina and all involved.. which makes me even more certain that they had a firm conviction that what they were doing was ordained of God.

H
They couldn't read the 10 commandments that said, "Thou Shalt NOT covet thy neighbor's wife!"? It doesn't take a Doctrite in theology to figure out you can't make babies with your follower's wives after sending them off on a mission for the church.

C
Think about it. doing something like that.. becoming a 2nd or 3rd wife.. especially in those times.. It was something that made you a rejection to society... they had to have been strong in their beliefs.. for that many to join, and that many to go along with it,

H
Ok, so besides all the moral relativism, where's the law that allowed them to claim other men's wives as their own?

C
one moment please let me find it for you.

H
There are plenty of laws condemning that behavior, starting with the 10 commandments and the Law of the Priesthood, not to mention the law of the land and common human decency, so any law God gave would have had to negate all of the other laws God gave us governing marriage.
C
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng This is the Churches official standpoint on polygamy

E
I think personally it is really hard to try to understand why Polygamy happened back then, but we need to remember that even though we might not know all of the answers to why things happened the way they did, it happened for a reason and we need to trust that God's hand was in it and He knew what He was doing when polygamy was happening so many years ago.

H
I'm not talking about polygamy, I'm talking about claiming other men's wives as your own. There is no law that allowed that and never was a law, or it would have made God a liar and would have made marriage meaningless if you could just go have sex with anybody you wanted to call your "wife" when she was somebody elses wife. Zina was the concubine (whore) of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, while she was really married to her only real husband, Henry.

C
Also, one think I know also is that the Church is incredible.. it has blessed so many lives. When President Uchtdorf Said "doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" I know he was referring to things such as this. When Christ Came to the Earth he stated "by their Fruits ye Shall know them" and look at what the church has become what it is doing in the lives of thousands... it teaches of a loving Heavenly Father, of Self worth and Mastery. I know that the Church is perfect, but the people in it are far from that, which I why its so important that we have Modern revelation, Personal Testimony and prayer and so much more.. Also please do not refer to her in those derogatory terms, that offends me. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/this-is-a-womans-church-says-director-humanitarian-services

H
So what was she if she had sex with Brigham Young while she was married to Henry Jacobs? She wasn't Brigham's wife, that's for sure!! She was henry's wife. She was Brigham's concubine, not his wife. Concubine is another word for whore.

C
I'm sorry, We just aren't allowed to accept calls that are crude, vulgar, or argumentative. It drives the Spirit away. If You were a missionary once you should know how important that is to missionaries, Even if over a chat

H
So answer my question, where's the law that allowed Joseph and Brigham to claim their follower's wives as their own?

C
okay one moment I'm studying Zina really quick to find the specifics of what you are referring to. So here is my theory from what I've studied, I'd like to back it up but I don't want to keep you waiting. At that time it was important to have the "Literal Gathering of Israel" correct? and in doctrine, you need to be of the family of Israel to receive certain blessings. Now over time the Doctrine has been clarified that we are adopted into the the Tribes of Israel when we are baptized. However, They were given ALOT of doctrine all at once. Its not surprising, or hard to conclude that doctrine could have been confused or done incorrectly until further clarified. especially if you add agency into the mixing bowl.

H
Where's the law that contradicts the 10 Commandment law against coveting your neighbor's wife and committing adultery? It doesn't exist and never did. Any other rational is irrelevant given that fact. Perhaps this is the reason the Mormon church is a haven for sexual predators, because they overlook the fact that their founders were sexual predators.

C
There is also a commandment that "thou Shalt not Kill" yet Abraham was asked to kill Isaac, and Nephi was asked to slay Laban to retrieve the Plates. There are times where God makes exceptions. There are several things/ doctrines in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that don't completely make sense and to be real with you, I don't think that they ever will because we don't live in that time, we don't know exactly what happened, and we don't have ALL the information needed to be able to draw acceptable conclusions. I think thats why there are things like that.. because it forces us on our knees

H
Right. It doesn't make any sense what so ever, but we do know THE LAW, which is that we should not covet other men's wives and should not commit adultery. God NEVER commanded anyone to claim another man's wife, never has, never will, at least not the God I know and love, which is the same God who gave us the 10 Commandments!!!

C
"I respect your beliefs. Joseph Smith wrote: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Article of Faith 11"
The chat session has ended.

Too many loopholes and legalisms get in the way.

It's really wrong to make God the scapegoat for your committing adultery.
I wish Mormons had the sense to see how much Joseph Smith really insulted God with his words and actions.

"H
Ok, so besides all the moral relativism, where's the law that allowed them to claim other men's wives as their own?

C
one moment please let me find it for you."

I really wish I would have just said, "Take your time. Email me when you find it, Koriwhore@outerdarkness.com"

I really wish missionaries would stop saying it was common for a 14 year old to get married to a 36 year old. It wasn't common. I don't know what the cultural mores at the time dictated was appropriate, but I would be willing to guess that it was only slightly less inappropriate to get married to a teenager when you're in your 30's in the mid 19th century than it is for that same situation to occur today.

right on....and child sexual abuse is still common today, doesn't mean it is ok.

you ask them about Joseph and Brigham claiming other men's wives as their own and their response is, "It was common back then for 14 y.o.'s to get married."
or
"Polygamy was for the poor widows, who's husbands were killed fighting anti-Mormons and they couldn't be alone on the journey into the wilderness, so they needed to share husbands."
As if there was some kind of a holocaust against Mormons, lol

NONE of that has anything to do with answering the pertinent question, "How is it possible for the church to continue claiming Joseph and Brigham married women who were already married to other men, when there never was a law that allowed that, and plenty of laws they both violated, both man made and divine?"

So here's my question, do they have any real knowledge of the truth or do you think that they're told that the history of polyandry in TSCC is just an apostate lie?

When in reality, it's doctrine that's still considered the canonized word of God and the "Law of the Priesthood".
It's well documented history.

Then I would ask the missionaries: how common was it for a 14 year old girl to marry a man who already had a few dozen wives already? Seriously, it is not even a good justification to say girls that young got married frequently. It 's one thing if she married an 18 year old, but quite another marrying someone so much older it qualifies as pedophilia.

I've got to wonder how much justification missionaries do before they feel like liars, tools of the church.

Sorry, I think that Cassie actually did pretty good holding her own.

to Brandywine <<So here's my question, do they have any real knowledge of the truth or do you think that they're told that the history of polyandry in TSCC is just an apostate lie?>>

Cassie clearly knew about it, and knew where to get it. She even quoted the Mormon Essay on polygamy.

Most of these kids that you guys go after on these chats do a very poor job. Emily wasn't too good.....the old widow line when they were talking about the married women who got sealed to Joseph. Totally contradictory.

lvskeptic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I think that Cassie actually did pretty
> good holding her own.
>
> to Brandywine <>
>
> Cassie clearly knew about it, and knew where to
> get it. She even quoted the Mormon Essay on
> polygamy.
>
^^^Good point.

the old "hiding behind god" scam works every time.

Cassie did a good job being friendly and bearing her testimony. She knew quite a bit.
We live in Houston and my cousins kid got send on a mission to you guessed it Houston :). We have met some very smart ex mos and I would love to have him knock on their doors and have a good conversation.

Loved this:

"When President Uchtdorf Said 'doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith' I know he was referring to things such as this."

Uchtdorf knew exactly what he was setting up when he plagiarised that phrase.

Whenever I hear: "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith" what I hear is "silence your independent critical analysis and just trust your abusive CULT leaders."

Cassie is clearly a victim of mind control. Her whole brain has been conditioned from Birth with the same cult mantra chanted every Sunday and more.

It's possible (hopefully likely) that as she gets older, she'll have more confidence to trust her own mind and not the cult's BS.

Cassie's excuse:


"we don't know exactly what happened, and we don't have ALL the information needed to be able to draw acceptable conclusions. I think thats why there are things like that.. because it forces us on our knees"

She's assuming everything they did was commanded of God, so seems to believe these cult leaders were effectively sinless?

And how does forcing cult recruits on their knees make anything right? It's ridiculous. When an old cult leader asks to screw your teen daughter or your wife, you don't go on your knees, you just tell him to F%$£ OFF!

Mind washed cult recruits.

From reading "In Sacred Loneliness" it became clear to me that Joseph Smith's polygamy had nothing to do with God. It was abuse of power.

He abused his power as a community leader to get access to sexual favors that would not otherwise be available to him.

You don't need a convoluted doctrinal explanation to understand that, because it happens frequently in other contexts.

"heart wrenching experience for Zina and all involved.. which makes me even more certain that they had a firm conviction that what they were doing was ordained of God."

Wow, because it was emotional and heart wrenching - must be from God...hmmn..I'm not so sure it was heart wrenching for Brigham and Joseph. Geesh..idiots.

Notice how Mormons are careful to avoid mentioning Henry Jacobs name? as if he was an evil apostate who abandoned his family in the wilderness?
When in reality, he was the most victimized CULT follower of anybody. He had his family destroyed first by the horndog Joseph's Myth, then once his egomania got him dead, an even bigger egomaniac stole his wife and kids from him and sent on a mission overseas.
These sexual predators have no business being held up as models of morality and righteousness us inferior mortals ought to emulate.