The issues raised by amyjo in the original thread, which was very near its cut-off point, were too complex for me to answer there. The quote below is from amyjo in that thread:

>That's interesting about the Humanistic synagogues in >America. I wonder how they're perceived in Israel by the >Knesset for purposes of Aliyah?

The underlying point that everyone needs to keep in mind in this discussion is that immigration to Israel (most especially under "The Law Of Return," which says that any Jew in the world has a right to Israeli citizenship on demand, with some very limited exceptions), and LIVING in Israel with the normal things and rights that people expect when they live in a country---rights to get married and have that marriage recognized...rights to be buried where they want to be buried and where their family members are buried...rights to get divorced, etc., etc., etc.,---are TWO V-E-R-Y DIFFERENT THINGS IN ISRAEL!!! (There is even a program called "Brithright Israel," which arranges for FREE trips to Israel for non-Israeli Jews who want to go, and for this program converts to Judaism CAN go to Israel for a couple of weeks at no cost to them, and no one has to be Orthodox, because any valid conversion-to-Judaism, under any Jewish movement, qualifies you as a Jew for the purposes of "Birthright Israel.")

Immigration to Israel, and whether one can or can not demand Israeli citizenship as a result of their Jewishness, is a function of the Israeli GOVERNMENT, and is relatively "easy" and straight-forward: If you are a valid convert to Judaism (i.e., the rabbis who converted you are genuine Jewish rabbis in their relevant countries, and especially if you fulfilled the three requirements of Jewish conversion (circumcision or symbolic circumcision for males...mikvah (ritual bath)...and Bet Din, which is appearance before a board of three rabbis and those rabbis accepting you as a genuine convert), then you can demand and receive Israeli citizenship with few or no problems. Again: this is a GOVERNMENT function.

All the rest, however (marriage, divorce, adoption, burial, etc.) is a function of the Israeli RELIGIOUS establishment, which is very highly uber Orthodox, and so...

...you can be an Israeli CITIZEN, with your ID card saying that you are JEWISH...but then not be able to get married, or divorced, or get buried in a Jewish cemetery, because TO THE Israeli RELIGIOUS establishment, you are NOT a Jew (and all of these things are the province, in Israel, of the Israeli RELIGIOUS establishment---it was given to them in the beginning of Israeli nationhood (1948) to get the religious Jews POLITICALLY working on the side of the government...and this Band-Aid, intended more-or-less "temporary" stratagem is STILL IN PLACE, much stronger than it was in the days of early Israeli nationhood.

The only rabbis recognized officially in Israel as "rabbis" are those approved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate (a GOVERNMENT office, and there are in actuality TWO "Chief Rabbinates," but it doesn't matter here because both of them are united on any issues discussed in this thread). This means Orthodox rabbis, and in particular, it means Orthodox rabbis whose smicha (the conferring of the status of rabbi) is recognized by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.

So...a given person may be a rabbi in the United States or Canada, etc. (they went through rabbinical school, they received smicha from the relevant Jewish movement, they legally function under American law as rabbis, etc., but if they move to Israel, they are NOT rabbis. There is NO "Reform is barely recognized [in Israel], and the Conservative maybe somewhat more than the Reform," neither of them are recognized any more than a Southern Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic priest is, when it comes to Jewish law (which governs all of we would call "civil matters" in Israel: marriage, divorce, adoption, burial, etc.).

It is incorrect to say that "if one were to convert to Christianity or Islam, then they're banned from their own country..." this just does NOT happen. There ARE Israeli citizen Jews who "convert to Christianity or Islam," often because they marry Christians or Muslims, and they remain citizens of Israel (with Israeli passports, etc.). They may or may not have family acceptance problems, they will certainly have difficulties with civil law issues, but this has NOTHING to do with them being "banned from Israel" because this DOES NOT HAPPEN. (The general work-arounds are: you go out of the country, like fly to Cyprus, to get married...you get buried in a Non-Jewish cemetery, etc.)

Also, there are two trends, both of which conflict with each other, happening simultaneously in Israel (increasingly...and this has been going on for many decades now):

The ultra-religious Jews are getting more and more "ultra," which is expressed most alarmingly in both their power within the Israeli government (the Knesset, etc.) and also in their insistence on "daily life" standards (how women who are physically in, or passing through, their neighborhoods dress, etc.). The "ultras" assume that THEY are the "true Jews," and they are out to get everyone else to adhere to THEIR standards, which is NOT working well overall because...

...Israel overall is secularizing at an amazing (almost unbelievable to me) rate. PLENTY of "Orthodox" Israeli Jews are what would be considered, by our standards, Orthodox In Name Only (or when there is a family death, etc., and they have to conform to Orthodox standards for the duration, etc.).

Which means that there is an intense internal struggle between the ultra-ultras and the secular Jews, and this struggle is intensifying with every new day. It is apparent on the streets, and it is apparent with each new government election, and it is apparent on BILLBOARDS (there is beginning to be a total ban on females being pictured in anything which is visible to the public, including newspaper NEWS photos), it is apparent in radio and TV ads (there is beginning to be a ban on women's voices being heard in anything which is available to the public), it is apparent in local public schools, and so on, and so on...

Both sides are getting ever stronger at their different poles, and I don't know what the outcome is likely to be (and neither does anyone else).

The bottom line is: the only "rabbis" that legally exist in Israel are those approved by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate (which is a GOVERNMENT office).

If American rabbis (from any Jewish movement other than accepted-by-the-Israeli-government as Orthodox) move to Israel to retire there, etc., they are NOT [legally] "rabbis" any more (even if they might be addressed as such as a social courtesy).

In Israel, humanist Jews are no different from Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist Jews...since none of them (except for the provisions of the Law of Return) "exist."

They all, equally, "NON-exist." ;)



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2015 02:17PM by tevai.

Sounds like the OP's tribe is Ordain Women, or maybe Mormons Building Bridges.

Ask the bishop if you can set up a table in the foyer to sign up people who are interested in participating in Mormons Building Bridges. That should solve your membership problems.

Also, the Birthright Israel has a cutoff age, of 25 or 26 - it's designed for young adults. Unless you know of one that older Israelis may participate in. I haven't been able to learn of one.

It seems structured for the younger generation, as it is the younger ones it wants to attract as new immigrants to help build up the country.

It's a poor and struggling country too. So much of its economy is spent on the military out of necessity. That the already poor and suffering goes without even moreso, because the welfare state there does not really exist as we know it here in America.

In Israel the poor really do have to choose between paying for heat in the winter or buying their medicine. Maybe some here do the same, however there it is much more stark by comparison.

A sixteen year old was just murdered by an ultra-orthodox at a gay pride parade this past weekend, because she was a gay rights supporter. Very sad state of affairs, that hate crimes and intolerance and bigotry happen there aS a form of reverse discrimination against the unorthodox Jewish.

I attempted to make Aliyah in 2012 along with my daughter, on her return trip from a year she spent in France. I was not approved despite my having a letter from my Conservative rabbi confirming I am fully Jewish under Halacha Law, and had other documentation such as birth and death certificates of my Jewish maternal lineage going back to my great great grandmother. That wasn't *proof* enough, according to the Toronto Aliyah Coordinator, at the time.

And yet my Borderline Personality Disorder daughter, behind my back, made Aliyah without me within two years from then. I still don't know what on earth she did differently, but I do know she subverted my efforts somehow because I was trying to make Aliyah *with* her when it was declined. She may have been the reason (she has fabricated stories not just to Aliyah officials, but to Mormon officials here at home when she ran away from college, and disappeared from my home twice.)

It was such a stressful situation for me to be in, that I decided moving to Israel was not really worth it for me after all. And once I learned of daughter's move without my knowledge two years after, I called back the Toronto Aliyah people (the original coordinator had since retired and returned to Israel.) The assistant is now the coordinator. My daughter went through New York City after 2012. The Toronto coordinator told me last year to reapply when I'm ready. Like it will probably make a difference *now.* By now I've lost interest in moving.

One thing Tevai, you may already know about Aliyah, is the very high failure rate of Americans who travel there, only to give up and return back here. The cost of living is so expensive. Jobs are very difficult to find, and learning Hebrew is mandatory. Finding work without mastery of Hebrew leaves one basically resorting to working menial jobs even with advanced degrees and specialization here at home. Housing is difficult to find, and exorbitantly priced out of most average earners range.

I honestly don't know how my daughter is managing, since she has cut off all contact with all of my family. It is very disheartening. Even our Israeli cousin she spent a week with prior to moving there, has not heard from her since.

Getting back to your discussion: I do know of Messianic Jews that if they become *outed* in Israel, are treated less than humane by their peers. They can lose their jobs and positions of status. And if caught proselytizing like good little Christians, they can lose their citizenship. It's illegal in Israel to do that, and can be grounds for deportation.

They try to do a lot of good as Israeli citizens. While still trying to convert other Israelis to Christianity. So that's why they are perceived as traitors by the Jews, and lower on the totem pole than mere Christians.

The Arab Christians are not being replaced when they leave their Arab quarters whether by death, or attrition as in moving away. Israel does not allow new immigrant Arab Christians to take their place in those regions where the older ones are dying off. So there's no influx of people replacing the older generations of Christians in Israel. Jews who convert are loathed by other Jews. I learn this from reading my Jewish Facebook friends posts. They loath them with a passion.

I still could make Aliyah under Halacha Law, were I to really want it. Knowing my daughter is there but unable to contact her, and not even knowing where she is - just makes me too sad to contemplate wanting to go there - because I would be beside myself with grief even more than I am now not knowing how to reach her. Initially it was fun planning our going there together as mother and daughter, until things changed.

It's been a mother's worst nightmare for me, losing a child to a Borderline Personality Disorder. If her life were in danger, I'm not even sure she'd know how to help herself - because she's putting herself into situations she doesn't have the maturity or the experience to know how to handle. And she isn't getting the help she needs because she's still suffering from it.

If anyone needs prayers and faith, it is me for my children. That's something I struggle with and don't see an end in sight.

The Mormon church contributed to her dysfunction, but I believe part of it may have been hereditary because my ex-husband also has the same disorder. Only he and his wife hates Jews, and they displaced my daughter 3 years ago in California, which only added to her malaise. His mother was a Warsaw ghetto orphan from the Holocaust, Jewish also. But was raised by Catholics after her parents starved in the ghetto. I believe Irena Sendler may have saved his mother, like she did 1,500 or so other Jewish orphan refugees from the ghetto in Warsaw. And he still hates Jews, including his own daughter. Oh well, you don't need to know all that. Guess I'm venting because of the subject matter, and this is still a Recovery site for us ex-Mormons. And I'm very much missing my daughter.

Sorry for the ramble. I'll try to focus better on the Jewish tribe issues in subsequent postings. I will add I feel more Jewish than I ever did Mormon. And I know what it means to be part of that tribe. (I also love all my ancestors, regardless of their religion including the Mormon side. The pioneer heritage is one I'm truly proud to be related to, as much as the others. Family is very important to me.)

I lost many relatives in the Holocaust. I never actually knew them, but I know them through the stories I've been able to gather and the bits and pieces of their lives that have been handed down the generations. I feel their pain, of the loss of loved ones, at the hands of persecutors not unlike some of those I've had to deal with in the Mormon church who came between my daughter and me in the last several years before her disappearance.

Had it not been for the Mormon busybodies and meddlers going back to my daughter's teen years before college, and subsequent to her disappearing from college years later to the Mormon bishop's house who harbored her [the same one] who had helped hide her mail from me while she was still in high school, perhaps her Borderline Personality would not have developed as it did.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2015 10:01PM by amyjo.

Wow! Neither Herman Wouk nor Leon Uris ever mentioned Irena Sendler in their WWII novels!

Wikipedia credits her with getting 2,500 kids out of the Warsaw ghetto, 400 of whom she personally carried out! Only a couple of diplomats, via the issuance of visas, can lay claim to personally saving more Jews during WWII. But as far as being personally involved, out in the field, no one saved more than her.

I just typed her name into YouTube's search box and there's been a movie and documentaries and interviews!!


I'd make a joke, but for once....

Irena Sendler, like the Chinese and Japanese diplomats, kept very low profiles during and following the Holocaust.

A Chinese diplomat it was discovered shortly before he died not all that many years ago, that he had written Visas for thousands of Jews to escape through Shanghai.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/19/asia/china-jews-schindler-ho-feng-shan/index.html

Chiune Sugihara another. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005594

Each one led quiet and unassuming lives. They were driven by a strong ethical sense, and love for humanity. They risked their lives and their careers to save those people.

A group of Kansas high school kids discovered Irena Sendler in 1995 doing a project on the Holocaust, which brought her good works to light. They eventually got to meet her, before her death from old age.

http://www.irenasendler.org/