In Sunday school we are repeatedly told the story of Korihor in class since the church is afraid that we'll turn atheist. During class I spoke out and told them how terrible Alma's arguments are.
The debate starts off with Korihor stating that the church leaders are doing this to deceive and for money. Alma responds by saying no they aren't. To Alma's credit Korihor had no evidence for this claim. Unfortunetly for the Mormos this argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny today because there is ample evidence that Tomas S. Monson gets much payment for what he does (watch David Twede's ex mormo conference)
Korihor says that there is no evidence for God. Alma says that there is no evidence that there is no God. This is a worthless burden of proof reversal and more evidence that Joseph had no idea what logic is. Next we get Alma's argument about how there are stars and stuff and how that proves there is a god. I have no idea what the hell that means and I don't really care. It's like an argument from incredulity but more dumb. Then Jospeh realized that Korihor was winning the debate and he started to get scared so he decided for God to strike Korihor dumb and have him die on the streets. This has two problems. 1. It serves no purpose at all to a debate and doesn't help us at all. 2. It shows how much of an asshole the Mormon God is.
I imagine Joseph wrote this part based on some debate he had as a kid but he completely lost so the rest is based on his fantasies of God hurting the kid.

Funny, I've pointed out the fallacies of religious arguments for years -- never had any "god" strike me dumb and kill me on the street.
How about that.

Maybe God did strike you dumb, but you failed to notice due to your lack of belief....

It's possible. Maybe that explains why my pleas to mormon family to leave the cult seemed to "fall on deaf ears" -- it wasn't that they were deaf, it was that I was dumb! And they had enough faith to notice, whereas the rest of the world didn't!

Hehe.

kinda sounds like it was made-up by a young, uneducated farm boy

doesn't it

Another problem--the chief judge was apparently struck dumb as well as Korihor (otherwise, why would the chief judge have written Korihor a note to communicate with him?):

"49 Now Alma said unto him: This will I give unto thee for a sign, that thou shalt be struck dumb, according to my words; and I say, that in the name of God, ye shall be struck dumb, that ye shall no more have utterance.
"50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.
"51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign? Would ye that he should afflict others, to show unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you a sign; and now will ye dispute more?
"52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God." (Book of Mormon | Alma 30:49 - 52)


Oooops! Just one of the many snafus in the BoM narrative.

Funny! Smith thought being dumb also meant you can't hear?!

That cracks me up. I must have read Almo chapter 30 a million times and use to think it was the most brilliant argument against those naughty athesists. Now how did I miss the fact that all of a sudden the chief judge couldn't speak as well. Good grief!

The more I learn about mormonism the more I kick myself for my past gullibility.

I never noticed either. >:(

Like how people talk in the third person about a disabled person
right in front of them. "How is she today" they'll say to the
disabled person's companion, when the disabled person is
perfectly able to hear and speak.

lurking in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "51 And now when the chief judge saw this, he put
> forth his hand and wrote unto Korihor, saying: Art
> thou convinced of the power of God? In whom did
> ye desire that Alma should show forth his sign?
> Would ye that he should afflict others, to show
> unto thee a sign? Behold, he has showed unto you
> a sign; and now will ye dispute more?
> "52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote,
> saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak;
> and I know that nothing save it were the power of
> God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always
> knew that there was a God." (Book of Mormon | Alma
> 30:49 - 52)

Boy, they're pretty long-winded for a culture that allegedly had no writing utensils except for etching things on metal plates. Or did they invent paper too, and that's been lost along with the horses and barley?

The part that ticked me off was that Korihor was just pretending to be an atheist and confessed in the end. I don't know anyone like that. It is harder to be an atheist than a believer as far as having people like you goes. Atheists are atheists because they lack evidence that God exists. Not because they want to sin and because they want to play tricks and make people angry.

Joseph Smith just wasn't good at writing believable characters with realistic motives, actions, and dialog.

Well I believe the point Joseph was trying to make was that he believes that all atheists really actually believe in God. This is probably my least favorite thing creationists say. It's simply not true.

But yeah, none of Joseph's characters seemed to have any motivation and they seemed like they could want to kill at any second.

Yes, the message here is that all atheists *really* do believe in God.

But then, after confessing that he "always knew that there was a God," Korihor immediately contradicts himself:

"But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true ...." (Book of Mormon | Alma 30:53)

And I have to say, I never really understood how the devil could appear in the form of an angel and convince someone to be an atheist. I think I would have at least asked the angel: "If there is no God, as you say, then where do you get your angelic power and the authority to command me to do anything?"


(This really is one bizarre little story, isn't it?)

(I've posted this before but it bears repeating)

The Korihor story is jaw-droppingly awful.

First it mentions that they HAD A LAW that you couldn't arrest someone for their religious beliefs or preaching:

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was
strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a
law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye
will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or
rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve
him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to
punish him.

10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he
robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also
punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished;
yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to
their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s
belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which
he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

12 And this Anti-Christ, whose name was Korihor, (and the law
could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people
that there should be bno Christ. . . .
--Alma 30:7-12

So we have it established that the Nephites had total freedom of religion, just like in Joseph Smith's time. We also have it established that to have it otherwise is "strictly contrary to the commands of God."

Let's see how much the Book of Mormon account respects the law based on the "commands of God."

Korihor is preaching--nothing else. Not murdering, not , not robbing, not assaulting anyone, not committing adultery--just presenting his views in the marketplace of ideas.

So what happens?

19 Now this man went over to the land of Jershon also, to
preach these things among the people of Ammon, who were once
the people of the Lamanites.

20 But behold THEY WERE MORE WISE than many of the Nephites;
for they took him, and BOUND HIM, AND CARRIED HIM before Ammon,
who was a high priest over that people.

21 And it came to pass that he CAUSED THAT HE SHOULD BE
CARRIED OUT OF THE LAND. And he came over into the land of
Gideon, and began to preach unto them also; and here he did not
have much success, for HE WAS TAKEN AND BOUND AND CARRIED
BEFORE THE HIGH PRIEST, and also the chief judge over the land.
--Alma 30:19-21 (emphasis added)

So much for freedom of religion. I guess the "commands of God" are good to give lip service to but not actually to be followed. The message here is that Mormons don't really have to follow the law where their religion is involved--something that all the "prophets" from Joseph Smith to Joseph F. Smith actually stated.

So Korihor's rights are trampled on, he's arrested and "bound" and brought before Alma who starts debating him. Korihor mentions the leaders "glutting on the labors of the people," (Alma 30:31). In righteous indignation Alma replies:

32 Now Alma said unto him: Thou knowest that we do not glut
ourselves upon the labors of this people; for behold I have
labored even from the commencement of the reign of the judges
until now, with mine own hands for my support, notwithstanding
my many travels round about the land to declare the word of God
unto my people.

33 And notwithstanding the many labors which I have performed
in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine
for my labor; neither has any of my brethren, save it were in
the judgment-seat; and then we have received only according to
law for our time.

34 And now, if we do not receive anything for our labors in
the church, what doth it profit us to labor in the church save
it were to declare the truth, that we may have rejoicings in
the joy of our brethren?

35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get
gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain?
--Alma 30:32-35

Let's take some time out and fast-forward to the Church today:

Thomas S. Monson has been a GA for over half a century. Before that he was employed by the Church. Today he is a millionaire.

Boyd K. Packer has been a GA for half a century. Before that he was employed by the Church. Today he is a millionaire.

Please tell me what "labor" they do with their "own hands" for their "support?"

OK, back to Korihor:

So the "debate" between Alma and the bound prisoner continues and Korihor gives a cartoonish version of typical early 19th century, post-Enlightenment "free thought" and Alma counters with typical early 19th century arguments about the orderliness of the planets in their orbits, etc. Then Korihor mentions "a sign:"

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign,
that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me
that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth
of thy words.
--Alma 30:43

So Korihor asks for actual evidence--what a concept. What is Alma's reply:

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye
tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have
the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy
prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all
things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all
things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea,
and also all the planets which move in their regular form do
witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

Wait a minute. Does Alma believe because of these things--the regularity of the planets, the scriptures, the prophets etc. was that enough for Alma? OR DID ALMA, HIMSELF, NEED A SIGN? Let's back up and look into Alma's background:

8 Now the sons of Mosiah were numbered among the unbelievers;
and also one of the sons of Alma was numbered among them, he
being called Alma, after his father; nevertheless, he became a
very wicked and an idolatrous man. And he was a man of many
words, and did speak much flattery to the people; therefore he
led many of the people to do after the manner of his iniquities.

9 And he became a great hinderment to the prosperity of the
church of God; stealing away the hearts of the people; causing
much dissension among the people; giving a chance for the enemy
of God to exercise his power over them.

10 And now it came to pass that while he was going about to
destroy the church of God, for he did go about secretly with
the sons of Mosiah seeking to destroy the church, and to lead
astray the people of the Lord, contrary to the commandments of
God, or even the king—
--Mosiah 27:8-10

So Alma was at least as "bad" as Korihor. Alma went around "secretly . . . seeking to destroy the church, and to lead astray the people of the Lord, . . ." Korihor is doing his preaching openly, not secretly.

So how did Alma, former evil anti-Christ end up as the leader of the church himself? Let's read on:

11 And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling
against God, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto them;
and he descended as it were in a cloud; and he spake as it were
with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon
which they stood;

12 And so great was their astonishment, that they fell to the
earth, and understood not the words which he spake unto them.

13 Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand
forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord
hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and
nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my
people.

14 And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the
prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant,
Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith
concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge
of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to
convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the
prayers of his servants might be answered according to their
faith.

15 And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For
behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also
behold me before you? And I am sent from God.

16 Now I say unto thee: Go, and remember the captivity of thy
fathers in the land of Helam, and in the land of Nephi; and
remember how great things he has done for them; for they were
in bondage, and he has delivered them. And now I say unto thee,
Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that
their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of
thyself be cast off.

17 And now it came to pass that these were the last words
which the angel spake unto Alma, and he departed.

18 And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the
earth, for great was their astonishment; for with their own
eyes they had beheld an angel of the Lord; and his voice was as
thunder, which shook the earth; and they knew that there was
nothing save the power of God that could shake the earth and
cause it to tremble as though it would part asunder.

19 And now the astonishment of Alma was so great that he
became dumb, that he could not open his mouth; yea, and he
became weak, even that he could not move his hands; therefore
he was taken by those that were with him, and carried helpless,
even until he was laid before his father.
--Mosiah 27:11-19

Wow, so Alma was worse than Korihor and Alma got a sign. Alma needed a sign before he'd believe, but now he's scolding Korihor for asking for a sign. Now he's telling Korihor that the same things that were not enough for Alma, himself, should be enough for Korihor--the arrogance and hypocrisy are astounding.

So Alma uses his mojo to give Korihor a sign; Korihor is struck dumb--the exact same sign that Alma himself had, minus the angel. But he won't allow Korihor to repent. Korihor, unlike Alma, must remain dumb and beg for his food and finally be trampled to death. The chapter concludes with:

60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; . . .
--Alma 30:60

That's the end of Korihor, but I guess this doesn't apply to Alma who, although he "perverted the ways of the Lord" got a reprieve and was able act like a dick with Korihor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 10:52PM by baura.

Seems like Alma probably had some family connections that got him off the hook.

Korihor had nobody

+1 have you noticed that who you know or are related to in TSCC really makes a big difference?

Great points, baura.


One passage I'm especially intrigued by is this:

" ... [A]ll things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." (Book of Mormon | Alma 30:44)


It shows a glaring lack of awareness of reality:

1. While there are many things on earth that believers might consider "miracles" or evidence for God, there have to be just as many that would tend to show the opposite: the intense suffering experienced by many, the gross crimes and injustices committed far and wide, the less-than-"divine" tendencies that exist to a greater or less degree in all of us.

2. Using the "motion" of the earth as proof of the existence of God is very puzzling. (So, if the earth weren't moving, would that fact tend to disprove the existence of God? I'm confused.)

3. The "regular" movement of the planets? Actually, the planets *don't* move in completely regular form, but orbits and rotations are constantly precessing and wobbling (and quite chaotic over the long term)--but I guess I wouldn't expect an inspired BoM prophet of God to know that!

One other problem: the ancient Jews, well into the 2nd century CE (as attested by Ptolemy), believed that the earth stood still and the heavens rotated around it. Lehi and his family, and all their descendants, having taken leave of Jerusalem several centuries before this belief was corrected, would presumably have thought the same. Alma's evidence of God in the "motion" of the earth, then, to an ancient Jewish civilization, would have been nonsensical.

Yes but . . .

Don't you see? The Nephites, in all their righteousness, were
blessed by God with a flowering of knowledge so that their
philosophy and science, in just a couple of centuries, caught up
to the European/American philosophy and science in the early
1800s. But it wasn't a technical knowledge, it was more or less
a colloquial knowledge . . . about the level of knowledge that a
typical person,say in upstate New York in 1830 would have.

What a coincidence!

Alma's alleged discussion of science relating to the solar system reflects the widely available knowledge of the subject available to Joseph Smith Jr. perfectly, introduced in a way that could segue then into a simplistic discussion of the ideas of someone like Sir Isaac Newton. In contrast, a knowledge of it from the astronomers of today would take into account the reality of quite a large number of impact craters on almost all the observed solid planets and moons. This clearly isn't as neat and tidy as suggested, having things crash into each other throughout the cosmos on a relatively routine basis, possibly even on a massive planet-killing scale (well, Joseph Smith's worldview really doesn't seem like it could have done without that story option if better known...).

On the flip side... The word "planet" has its origins in ancient Greek (planen). It means "wanderer." This is a reference to the fact that, from the point of view of Earth, the planets' courses seem to wander in the sky in ways their astronomers couldn't predict in the direct way ordinary stars could be predicted with what was known. This situation was largely remedied later with advances in mathematics and improved methods of observation, both notably espoused by people willing to push back against the prevailing ideas of the time (the Book of Mormon simply doesn't mention such luminaries much if they allegedly existed behind the narrative, and I say this sadly as they really would have helped the story along). In other words, in Europe during the time Alma was alleged to exist the movements of the planets are what didn't fit the perceived order of nature quite so well. If they had mathematics and/or observation to that level in the New World but not the Old there's simply no evidence to show it. Societies that develop technically to that degree usually can't hide it perfectly because they make noticeably artificial things too much and too well. I haven't heard of any more advanced than usual observation equipment, for example, being dug up in fitting with anything close to the correct time period in the New World. If they were doing math of this type we have no indication of that anywhere, either. Nothing has been found to give any credence to the claim they developed a circa-1800 AD understanding of astronomy.

There's only one time period for which saying this alleged phrase by Alma in this way fits at all: The one in which Joseph Smith might say it. Seen anywhere else it's noticeably out of place if you know the basics about this part of science history.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And thus we see the end of him who perverteth
> the ways of the Lord; . . .
> --Alma 30:60
>

strong baura post

Joseph Smith, Jr. could be very self-prophetic at times

That is an amazing post baura!

Well the debate is closed right at the beginning. Alma remember saw the Lord and so therefore he had perfect knowledge.

Yet Alma taught or said that all men must know God through faith (things unseen which are true).

Korihor simply said that there is no evidence, there is no sight, sound, revelation, prophecy. Therefore how can we know by faith of a God that we cannot know by perfect knowledge?

There argument of Korihor is so much sounder and logical than Alma's "Believe by Faith" (Yet I know by perfect Knowledge).

It's a Catch-22

I'm not familiar with this story. It's interesting to me for a different reason to most of you - it's anachronistic.

It's noticeable that the Bible does not contain the debate on the existence or non-existence of God. It simply isn't there. The only example I can think of is a verse in Proverbs that says "the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" - but there is no refutation; rather, it seems like a condemnation of the fool's foolishness - he isn't an atheist, because in those days the concept didn't exist; rather, his behaviour indicates that he doesn't take God seriously; he acts as if 'there is no God'.

What I'm driving at is that in ancient times, there was not really any such thing as intellectual atheism. There were plenty of people who did not take the gods seriously, but no-one would seriously contend they were not real.

The key debates of religion in the times covered by the Bible, and allegedly by the Book of Mormon as well, were about the nature of the gods - what were they like, who were they, which ones were more powerful, etc. Even the Jewish contention that there was only one true God, and therefore that the others were not real, was revolutionary, and in a lot of the early Old Testament that claim is not even explicitly made, because it would not be taken seriously. Instead, the argument is made that the God of Israel is more powerful than the others, as that is more comprehensible to the cultures of the time than the argument that any of them are nonexistent. Remember this is far before the Enlightenment and the advent of the concept of scientific fact; it's even before Greek philosophy, or at least outside of its sphere of influence. The gods had names; therefore they were real.

On the other hand, the preoccupation with the existence or nonexistence of God that is evidenced by this story seems to me extremely modern. It has "Victorian" written all over it.

I didn't know that thanks for sharing this with us.

Alma 30

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.
8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.


These laws made what happened to Korihor a crime. It doesn’t matter at all what he believed or preached.

Who's plan was it to demand censorship, obedience, threats, curses, be turned out to starve and stomped to death if one did not bend to the state religion?

Sounds like Satan’s plan to me.

Never, did anyone ever read, in any lesson I was taught in church, these verses, before the unjustified murder of Korihor.

I guess it was my fault for not reading the BOM closer to see the blatant moral and ethical hypocrisy and not the Correlation Committee’s fault of omitting the most important facts in the story of Korihor.

Thanks everyone for the info in this post.

I'm going to save this one.

I have been likened to Korihor in my past discussions as I was on my way out by those in priesthood authority.

Next time I'm likened to Korihor I will demand they sit and listen to why Korihor is one of my heroes and why Korihor should be one of theirs too based on the thing they carry to church every Sunday.

Crawl over around and through that Mr. Holland!

How do we know there is a God? Because Alma has magic powers. Take away his supernatural abilities, and Korihor wins the debate.

JS is trying to win a debate against his critics with this argument. He sets up Korihor as the mouthpiece of his enemies and Alma as his heroes. What is notable is how weak Alma's arguments are. Unless you are already a believer, Alma just looks ridiculous.

JS allows Alma to win by giving him powers that no living human demonstrates. When Tommy Monson and his minions start striking people dumb, then you can believe they are right. Their arguments are as weak as Alma's.

Then again, would you really want to worship a God who kills people for speaking out against him?

I had a golden investigator on my mission... He read all the way up to Alma 30 with korihor. He thought the chapter was too predictable and got turned off by it. He told me he didn't want to learn more about the church after that.

Now looking back, I don't blame him. This story has stupid written all over it.

Thank you for standing up for yourself in church! Your story is awesome and you deserve some accolades for being true to yourself in the face of the morg.

Well played!