Hello... I am not sure if this is the right place to post my comment but figured I'd try.

I am contemplating on accepting a job in Orem, UT, and that means I will have to move from Virginia Beach to Utah. I am a non-practicing catholic and wife is also a non-practicing mormon or practicing when she goes to Utah on vacation. Her mother side of the family all live in Utah (Orem, Lindon, Provo areas).

Long story short, we met while we were both in the military stationed in Italy. We never really discussed religion and it was not an issue... until a few years ago. It has been a big issue in our marriage and if it wasn't because of the kids, I think I would have given up already... We have two kids ages 7 and 8.

I have spent the past few days reading blogs and information on what it's like living in Utah. I am not really worried about myself. More worried about my kids in the Utah school setting.

To be honest, I LOVE spending time outdoors and every time I go to Utah I honestly have a GREAT time and wouldn't mind living there. Her family are all LDS, and really get along with them and they are not the "pushy" type at all. In fact, my wife's uncle is a bishop at one of the wards. They are all great people and do like being around them - as we never discuss religion.

I am mostly thinking about my kids (the move), since they have lots of cousins to play with in Utah compared to a few neighborhood kids here in Virginia Beach. Have ZERO family close by and I often travel for work and only have a couple of friends myself in the area.

Sorry if I am jumping all over the place with my post, but I am typing as I am thinking... and these thoughts have been driving me nuts the past couple of days.

I am very social, and talk to anyone - anywhere. I like to have friends over and have a drink or two while watching sports. I like to sometimes go and have a drink after work with colleagues. This is another worry that I have... finding friends to do this. Having people over for a BBQ and responsibly enjoying a drink. I see NOTHING wrong with this (I am a responsible drinker), but to the eyes of others (LDS) - this is a HELL NO GO!

I am hoping to find someone in the SLC and south areas to perhaps discuss this further. I will be in the area again in a couple of weeks and at the end of the month.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 01:36PM by Susan I/S.

Please stop in at the Harmons Meetup.
Some very smart people show up there.

wastedtime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please stop in at the Harmons Meetup.
> Some very smart people show up there.

I will def. stop by when I travel to SLC in a couple of weeks. The move won't happen for another couple of months, but I will be there a few times before then.

Thanks for the support.

J

I've been a real estate broker here in Utah for 20 years. Feel free to pick my brain when you come to the Harmons meetup. I'll bring my laptop and you can search the MLS if you want. I'm also from out-of-state and have a different perspective on things.

Wanted to reply to the comment (below) but thread was closed before I was able to respond.

I have a couple of possible opportunities - one in Orem and the other in SLC. Park City would be great, but it will be a long commute.

I would sacrifice buying a 400k home and finding something cheaper and send my kids to a private school (catholic).

I have been to Moab, but would not consider. Kind of far from everything.

Re: moving to utah

If you move here be very picky about where you buy a home. I would recommend Park City. It's one of the most liberal areas of the state. (And remember, liberal in Utah translates to status quo everywhere else. Liberal means you won't be judged quite as harshly if you mow your lawn on Sunday, or someone finds empty beer bottles in your trash can.) The downside to Park City is that it is one of the more expensive areas of the state.

Will you work location be Salt Lake or Orem, or do you do more work from home? Because Moab in southeastern Utah is a gorgeous area with a very low Mormon population. You'd be close enough to family to visit on the occasional weekend but far away to stay out of the major drama (three hours away). But Moab does get very hot in the summer.

In Salt Lake, the Sugarhouse and Avenues areas tend to be fairly liberal with low Mormon populations.

I'd be most worried about your kids. In the schools there is very much a divide between who is Mormon and who is not. Your children will be judged on their religious affiliation (or lack thereof). Definitely look for a home in an area where the schools have a diverse population. The Mormon pressure won't be quite as hard on them there.

Other than the Mormons, Utah is a wonderful place to live. You ski in the winter, head to the desert in the spring and fall to bike and hike, then go back to the mountains in the summer. There's always something exciting to do outdoors, no matter the season.

If you move here I'd recommend getting your kids ski passes. Schedule lessons on Sundays. Get them to identify with the outdoor enthusiast kids and not the religiously programmed kids.

Focusing on which neighborhoods are ok is the wrong approach to this. That might work for never-Mo families, but your wife is Mormon in their minds (and perhaps even her own). So are your children, by extension. They will NEVER leave you alone.

You say you want to make the move so your kids will be around family. You are singing the Mormon song: "family." But it's this very family that is going to make your lives miserable until you capitulate, or they reject you and your kids completely (and then they will still try to make you miserable). Imagine making this move to be around family, and then having that very "family" shun you? And shun your kids too, unless they join.

You say your wife only does the Mormon stuff when visiting. A move there will be an endless visit. By the way, they will see your move to Utah as heavenly father's influence, and a sure sign that "the church is true," whether you like it or not. They will exert herculean pressure on your wife to return (if they even know she's left), on your kids too, and on you, directly and through your wife and kids.

It's irrational to think that you can make a move into their midst and negotiate and/or maintain reasonable boundaries. That might work with normal people, but it will not work with brainwashed cult members.

If this extended family is TBM, then their lives revolve around TSCC. They will accommodate you when you visit, probably genuinely, but also because Mormons are supposed to be nice and smile all the time. That's because people like you--apostate Gentiles--are supposed to see how wonderful it all is and sign up. Once you steadfastly refuse them, you will see a different side of them, because the "church" is more important than you. And it's more important than your marriage, and your wife, and your kids.

Here's what you can expect:
-If you resist them, they will shun you, portray you as a bad husband and try to destroy your marriage to get your wife back.
-If your marriage is strong enough to survive, they will shun you both, portray you as bad parents and try to steal your children.
-And if you manage to survive all that, they will shun you all, and you won't have any family around anyway.

The bottom line is that you, or some portion of your family, will have to give in, or you won't have this "nice" extended family around. Worse, you will be persecuted by them.

This may all sound exaggerated and hyperbolic, but it isn't. It's the reality you'll be living in should you move your family to be near these other folks.

The bible says something like "train up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it." More than theology, this is basic psychology. Your wife was brought up in this mess. It would seem that she's rejected it, but you say that religion has been a big issue lately--that's odd if you're both non-practicing--it seems that religion is a significant issue already (moving to Utah is bound to compound this).

You said you hope you can all attend a Catholic church. That sounds reasonable, but you also said you're a non-practicing Catholic. You wife is a non-practicing Mormon, so wouldn't it be equally reasonable for her to hope that you can all attend a Mormon church? Is it reasonable or rational to expect others to attend a church whose tenates you don't even practice yourself? My point is, that just like you are drawn to the church you know, even though you haven't been practicing, the same dynamic exists in her.

By the way, if you want to know how Mormons feel about Catholics, scroll down to point #6 in the first section at this link:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mormon-stumpers

Actually, there's a lot of good information at that website about Mormons. One of my brothers married a Catholic girl, and there's no end to the friction between them and our Mormon relatives (roughly half the immediate and extended family), so I pointed him there. Actually, there's no end to the friction between our Mormon family members and the non-Mormon family members...at least those who even communicate--a large number of us are being shunned.

You said religion "has been a big issue in our marriage and if it wasn't because of the kids, I think I would have given up already." If you want to completely destroy your marriage, then move to Utah. Read the very last sentence on the page linked here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-mormon-church

There is also a chance that moving to Utah will push the wife the rest of the way out of the church. Utah Mormons are a different breed, and Mormons from out of state often experience culture shock when they move to Utah. (In fact, many SLC Mormons claim they could never stand to move to Utah Valley).

The truth is, you don't know what your wife will do, what her family will do, or how the neighbors/schoolkids will treat your family. Anything could happen. The only thing you can do is control yourself and your own behavior/reactions.

My husband and I have lived in North Utah County for over 15 years as exmos. It's been rough at times, but in general things are getting better for non-religious, especially in school. My oldest child had it the hardest, but it wasn't horrible.

There have been plenty of bumps in the road for them, but there will be bumps ANYWHERE you live. I'd say the most important thing is to make sure your wife and you are open about your concerns, expectations, and boundaries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2015 02:59PM by imaworkinonit.

"it's this very family that is going to make your lives miserable until you capitulate"

Wise words.
UNLESS your relatives are incredibly open-minded and non-intrusive. Luckily, there is no pressure on my side, but DW's parents know no boundaries. She now sees how much they have messed her up and what habitual liers they are. She and the kids are never going back.

An admittedly snarky comment: If things don't work out, Utah is literally crawling with desperate beautiful women. Some never married and some with kids. Some guys I know got divorced and stupidly were remarried within a couple months.

+1

This is a very clear and real depiction of what you're headed for. Do NOT underestimate the inlaws.

It all depends on yours and your wife's attitude and the platitudes you adopt after you transition from where you are to where you'll be in Utah.

There are lots of never-Mos there who make it work. My grandmother was one. Look up demographics. From wiki, it shows that Utah in recent stats,

"Recently, Utah has experienced an in-migration of population from other U.S. states which served to change the state's sociocultural/political character. The percentage of Utah residents who are Mormon has declined while the number of the religiously unaffiliated has increased.

....Percentages of LDS population is much less in urban than in rural areas where they remain the majority (ambiguous and grammatically wrong). Other Christian faiths 1/4th of population statewide, but over half are non-Mormon in Salt Lake County. A projected Mormon minority in Utah by the year 2060, while the percentage of Mormons already dropped to about 50% in Salt Lake County." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Utah

It will be fine as long as you go in with a positive attitude and don't let the Mormons or anti-Mormons get under your skin. You'll want to get along with your neighbors, no matter what their religious affiliation. Hoping you have good neighbors, and a positive experience.

Plenty of non-Mo's and ex-Mo's here.

People tend to -- in my estimation -- make a bigger deal out of the neighborhood LDS influence than they really should. My wife's family is all hard-core LDS, and several of them live within half an hour of us, but we do not get unwanted visits or attention from them with regards to the church. My neighbor, a former mission president, has not hassled us. I live in a nice neighborhood with good people that still treat us well even though my wife and I are fully out-and-out ex-Mormons.

Where you choose to live will be driven by cultural factors and the kids more than anything else. If you like urban living and being able to walk to the neighborhood bar, Salt Lake is the only game in town. Park City has few jobs and is very expensive, but is a good option if you like skiing. If you like general outdoors activities, I'd recommend something close to one of the parks or national forests. If you're sociable, you'll have no trouble finding somebody willing to drink your beer and eat your bbq.

Good luck, whatever you choose.

Alpiner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Plenty of non-Mo's and ex-Mo's here.
>
> People tend to -- in my estimation -- make a
> bigger deal out of the neighborhood LDS influence
> than they really should. My wife's family is all
> hard-core LDS, and several of them live within
> half an hour of us, but we do not get unwanted
> visits or attention from them with regards to the
> church. My neighbor, a former mission president,
> has not hassled us. I live in a nice neighborhood
> with good people that still treat us well even
> though my wife and I are fully out-and-out
> ex-Mormons.
>
> Where you choose to live will be driven by
> cultural factors and the kids more than anything
> else. If you like urban living and being able to
> walk to the neighborhood bar, Salt Lake is the
> only game in town. Park City has few jobs and is
> very expensive, but is a good option if you like
> skiing. If you like general outdoors activities,
> I'd recommend something close to one of the parks
> or national forests. If you're sociable, you'll
> have no trouble finding somebody willing to drink
> your beer and eat your bbq.
>
> Good luck, whatever you choose.


Thank you for your comments. I have been to Utah many times (short week or two week visits) and have never been harassed by anyone in regards to religion. We always visit and stay at her uncle's house (stake bishop) and have not once asked for me to convert or requested my presence in church. I do appreciate that about them. And it's not only them, but her entire family is the same way. The love me for who I am and not for what I may or may not believe in. I can't really speak for neighbors and thats my big ???? I wish I could afford living in Park City - it's beautiful, but I think I may stop looking at 400k houses and find something for less and send my kids to private schools. That may be a better option for them.

In regards to the "urban" setting. I don't mind being outside of the "urban" setting. Right outside SLC (south) is where I have started looking. I will be driving around some areas in a couple of weeks and narrowing down my options for when I move in a couple of months.

If you choose public school, find a mix of kids. Consider the future where your daughter will not be allowed to date Mormon boys, or his mother will be cruel about it. If you have a son, most Mormon girls will not be an option to date, or sometimes even hang out with.

It will be a gamble since they will like who they like. In some schools, leadership/popularity is ruled by wealthier Mormon kids. Do some research before deciding on a neighborhood.

I would not recommend being in super close proximity to the relatives (if you and your wife want any control of your own home/activities...) Mormon families are not known for social skills/boundaries... (trust us).

Good luck with your move!

Ex-Sis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you choose public school, find a mix of kids.
> Consider the future where your daughter will not
> be allowed to date Mormon boys, or his mother will
> be cruel about it. If you have a son, most Mormon
> girls will not be an option to date, or sometimes
> even hang out with.
>
> It will be a gamble since they will like who they
> like. In some schools, leadership/popularity is
> ruled by wealthier Mormon kids. Do some research
> before deciding on a neighborhood.
>
> I would not recommend being in super close
> proximity to the relatives (if you and your wife
> want any control of your own home/activities...)
> Mormon families are not known for social
> skills/boundaries... (trust us).
>
> Good luck with your move!

Hello. You know... Just last night I was thinking about this same thing - kids not being able to date a very large % of women there once they turn of dating age.

I do plan on being 20-30 minutes from my relatives. Not too close and not too far.

I am considering private schools or what's the deal with all the charter schools around? Any good ?

You might try posting a separate topic about private schools in Utah. Educators frequent the board here, some UT professors... who would be able to answer specific concerns.

Many kids are opting to combine college credit while in high school. I finished half a year early... Senior year is a time waster for many students.

I don't know specifically about Utah's schools, but as an educator I can tell you that generally speaking, there are both good and bad public, charter, and independent schools. Every school must be judged on its own merits.

I'd research the schools, for sure.

You want your children to be accepted, while meeting educational prerequisites for an education that will prepare them for their future.

There's good schools in the public sector, as private. Look at their rankings and ratings and compare. Same with charter schools. Which are competitive by their nature, but more challenging.

Catholic schools might be good, if that's the influence you want your kids to have. On the other hand, some of the wildest kids I've known were sent to Catholic schools as children. So that may not be much different from rebellious Mormon kids with a wild streak.

I'd be more worried about the drug scene that's epidemic in Utah. Your kids may be more exposed to that than you or your wife will be aware. So it may be good to get educated on that now before you get there. It's pandemic. Good kids are getting destroyed from addiction at early ages - for some reason Utah has the highest rates in the nation for addiction - most attribute it to Mormonism as a downside.

Just something to be aware of because your children are what matter.

Utah's school's are very problematic. They receive the lowest per pupil funding in the U.S. and have the largest average class sizes in the U.S. This funding problem doesn't show any signs of turning around any time soon. When I complain about this, (I have 2 children in elementary school), many people have said to me, "But Utah schools do so much with what they get! We (the state) don't HAVE to spend any more! The school scores are in the 34th percentile!" Why people are proud of that is beyond me.

Also, really, really take into account the air quality problems in Utah's northern valleys (Salt Lake Valley, Utah Valley, Cache Valley) during the winters and summers. It's quite bad and, like the school funding problem, is going to get worse before it gets better. The political will just isn't there in the state legislature to make the changes needed to clear our air and fund our schools.

I just read this whole thread, both parts. And I have to chime back in to say that you should not move to Orem. Doing so will drive you insane, make your children miserable outcasts and torpedo your marriage.

As someone who grew up in Orem, I feel fully qualified to make this statement.

People love to say that Utah is a great place to raise kids, but having been in Salt Lake for 2.5 years with my 2 young children, I have to say, I don't see it. What is there about Utah that makes it a great place to raise kids? Utah culture is largely quite closed-off and passive-aggressive, the schools are shockingly underfunded, Salt Lake City's rec centers are small, run-down and dumpy with few services, there are very few things to do with kids through the long, smoggy winters.

I know you want to be closer to family (I moved to SLC for the same reason), but really think hard about the total picture.

I was really shocked at what I found the daily realities of life in SLC to be. And I'm in Sugarhouse--one of the reportedly most liberal areas of the state!

Best wishes to you and your family in this difficult decision.

Hello neighbor!

Everything you've said about how well your family gets along with you etc. will change if you move to Orem. It is basically the center of the Zion Curtain.

You will be living in a theocracy (the entire state is controlled by the CULT). Some people are going to disagree, but look up the religion of the people in the legislature, the congressmen from Utah and Senators from Utah and you'll see how the CULT controls everything in Utah. You cannot get a job as a lawyer in Utah if you are not in the CULT. Trust me I know this from experience. You might as well move to Afghanistan and put your wife in a burqa.

I don't know what job you got in Orem, but you will never get a promotion without a temple recommend. They are just trying to get more members. They will stoop to anything. Now they are offering jobs to get people in the CULT! They aren't saying that now, but once you move to Orem they will. Your life will be a living hell in a seriously strict theocracy. There is no separation between CULT and state there. Some are going to say there is, but they haven't actually tried to get promoted in certain jobs there. I had to move out to get the job I needed in higher education.

Your kids will suffer in school unmercifully not being in the CULT. They will be shunned and treated like lepers, especially in Orem.

If you like the outdoors and that kind of beauty, move to Colorado. All of the beauty, none of the CULT problems.

I can't stress this enough. DON'T MOVE TO OREM UTAH. MOVE TO AFGHANISTAN IF YOU WANT TO BE LIVING IN A THEOCRACY DICTATORSHIP.
It sounds like you love your family. Keep them away from Orem Utah away from Utah at all. I can't even set foot in the state because of the evil they've done to me.

I know I am very strongly wording this and it is because I want to save someone else from the horror of Orem before it is too late.
Best of Luck. I hope you find the place you want to move but Utah is NOT THE PLACE. BY was wrong.

I lived there for 42 years and then got out. There is no comparison with other states. I celebrate that I left everyday. Having a non-theocratic government is so nice after Utah.

And take a look how diverse Orem is....
http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/city/utah/orem

Keep us posted on this...PLEASE DON'T MOVE TO OREM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2015 02:16AM by verilyverily.

verilyverily ratcheted up the anti-Orem stance I took in my posts, and I'm writing in again to AGREE COMPLETELY with his or her take on moving to Orem if you're not TBM. Don't do it!

Orem should have a banner strung across the freeway exit reading, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here. (Non-Mo's, we're talking to you.)"

Another downside to Orem is that there's no city center. It's a very poorly planned, non-pedestrian-friendly "city".

Actually, there are no upsides to Orem. It's one big downside.

My sis-in-law controls a Mormon passive-aggressive coven in Orem. She has complete control over my brother (he can't even reply to emails from us wicked exmo siblings).

The air quality in Utah Valley is horrible in the winter...

"Never move to a place whose name is composed of 4 letters."

- Salvador Dali

BONUS: Make new neighbors by giving them an old copy of the Ensign Magazine signed by a General Authority. Any General Authority.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-319-ENSIGN-LDS-Magazines-1964-1997-Church-Latter-Day-Saints-Mormon-/221820024318?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a580f5fe