I've come to realize I'm a rather tortured person. Like you, a lot has happened to me, sometimes the least of which is the issues surrounding TSCC.

I often have trouble shutting my brain off to sleep. I think it's a combination of having a lot on my plate, trying to process everything that's happened up to now *AND* a deeply rooted fear of a stillness that forces me to examine and truly feel my life up til now.

Just as a frame of reference, before I worked through my biggest insomnia causer I needed 30 mg of Ambien or 15 mg of valium to sleep. It's a lot better now, but I still need two Tylenol PM. I fall asleep naturally about once every three years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 03:05AM by ohdeargoodness.

I'm sure this is on your list, but if not...

Does sex work...either sex with a partner, or with yourself?

And (if you have a compatible partner), have you tried touching (back and bottom and shoulder rubs...appropriate massage to go to sleep by---in other words: soothing, rather than energizing), and/or cuddling?

(And I know this sounds crazy, but I have heard that some people respond to gentle and caring foot rubs...probably because foot rubs dissolve the tensions throughout most people's bodies. I have also heard that, for some people, this works for hands and fingers. Caring head rubs work, too---especially if the underlying problem is tension or anxiety that is affecting the blood supply to your brain, or the muscles around your eyes...and behind/around your ears.)

I am a Number One Touch person to the max, so some combination of the above always works for me.

You might also try 200 mg. of L-Theanine (an important brain neurotransmitter, made from green tea, which calms the body) with water (it needs to be dissolved before it can work)... followed by 3 mg. of melatonin (the kind which dissolves on your tongue). Both L-Theanine and melatonin can be found at your local Whole Foods, or health food store, or GNC store.

None of the above are likely have the kick of prescriptions, but they do work around here.

I am sorry...it is infuriating to need to sleep, and then not be able to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 03:28AM by tevai.

Using drugs to fall asleep becomes a dependence, then an addiction. Those are large amounts of benzos you were taking. Even TyPM taken nightly is an addiction. The chems in TyPM are not healthy, and are not meant for continual use.

If you must take a pill, melatonin is the body's natural sleep chemical.

If you fear stillness, you may need to confront the fear by practicing a stillness meditation. Once you get comfortable with stillness, that fear will be gone.

You may wish to check out "sleep breathing" and "Dr. Weil's easy breath technique for sleep". I use both of these simple breathing teks, and they work. I was stuck awake after an hour's sleep just last night, and I did one set of Weil's tek, followed by some sleep breathing, and I was out almost immediately. They slow brainwaves, and bring on body relaxation response very quickly. There is a thread about these teks right here on rfm from a few months back, started by me, hello.

Best of sleep success to you! :)

I suggest that you work on getting some balance in your life. Eat a healthy diet of food. Get at least a half hour of good exercise each day and over time work up to an hour per day. Take up yoga and get help with yoga from a well-recommended professional. Buy a Kindle or tablet and try to read for at least 30 minutes each evening before bed time. And wean yourself off the sleep drugs. Your problem is likely the result of imbalance and it will take a focused effort over time to correct this.

Yeah, all this. Regular exercise, reasonable diet, stuff like that. But also make sure, if you haven't already, to ditch the smart phones, iPads, tablets, laptops, TVs, and computers an hour or so before you go to bed. They are killing the population now. Never watch TV in bed or before bed, and never fall for the idea that it will help you sleep.

I've had terrible insomnia problems that are still hard to keep under control. A white noise generator helps me a great deal. YOu can find clock radios that have them, or get one of these:

https://www.marpac.com/

Getting good sleep is as much a project as trying to lose weight. You have to keep at it. Consistency is the watch-word.

Listening to podcasts or talk radio on my iPad or iPhone works wonders for me. It forces me to listen... instead of think about stuff, and therefore shuts my brain off. I use ear buds. This works particularly well when things get overwhelming and life events threaten to keep me tossing and turning for hours.

I've heard that reading the Book of Mormon will do the job every time.

Punch line? When I was TBM I used to read a chapter or two of the BOM before going to sleep. It really works :)

madalice beat me to it! Read the BoM... :-)

Anyway, in addition to the other suggestions, if you can take a shower (or if you have a hot tub) fairly soon to bedtime, slipping between the sheets when squeaky clean is vey soothin.

My problem is that I wake up about 3 in the morning and start thinking about all the things I haven't done and need to do...

Lavender oil dabbed on pillow case or on night clothes.

Make the beast with two backs, burp the worm, or play with the little eraser thingy, in whatever combinations apply to your current domestic situation. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Try this. I've been using a combination of methods, many of the above...

Kindle (charged) volume very low. Look up stories for sleeping on YouTube. There are combos of eight hour stories for adults including hypnosis/relaxation commentary included. You need to focus on what she is saying, no matter how minute the details...

There are also positive affirmations to sleep with (with or without background rain, music, hypnosis combo...) They vary from annoying to helpful.

My clock has a choice of white noise, ocean, forest, fog horn, rain forest...

Do not take a nap during the day, no matter how exhausted. Try swimming/exercising in the pool.

Some people eat a small turkey snack before bed... Make sure your room is entirely dark, cool, quiet.

Good luck! I know how tough it is! =)

Ex-Sis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My clock has a choice of white noise, ocean,
> forest, fog horn, rain forest...

I'm afraid to ask how a fog horn helps one fall asleep.

I formerly lived near the ocean, so the occasional fog horn was familiar... constant fog horn? Not so much. =[

As others have mentioned, this amount of chemical dependence is unhealthy. That amount of Tylenol PM will generate dependency and cause long-term liver and kidney damage. It's also not safe to use if you're drinking.

As far as getting better sleep, I'd suggest the following:

-- Exercise at least a couple hours before getting rest. Two reasons for this. One, you'll burn calories. Two, the muscle aches and soreness will serve as a useful distraction for whatever you have on your mind. Overeating plus a lot on your mind is a bad combination -- you have surplus calories to burn and if you're not exercising, they'll just serve to keep you up.

-- Keep a clean bedroom policy. Don't do other unpleasant things in your bed, like paperwork or arguments. If necessary, devote a room entirely to sleeping, and do not enter it unless your purpose is to fall asleep.

-- Minimize light. A lot of people are light-sensitive when sleeping (I'm one, I'll wake up as soon as the sun has risen). If necessary, put tape over any blinking LED lights on devices in your room and install blackout curtains.

-- Keep a list of things that are 'keeping you up.' Do what you can to address items on the list a little bit every day. Set meaningful goals and metrics to measure your progress. If your sleep deficiency is mental, then you have to solve it there. If you're one of those whose brains natters about unsolved issues of the day, you need to take steps to fix that. Consult a psychologist or sleep specialist to get help.

-- You didn't mention if you're male or female. Does your companion distract you when you're trying to sleep, via snoring or hogging the bed or anything else? Get that sorted out too.

-- Start weaning off the medication. Ambien has some nasty side effects, and Valium can cause other issues during the day after you wake up. I'll use Tylenol PM about once every 3 or 4 months, and I always wake up with a very foggy feeling in my head.

You sound like my wife...she and I couldn't be more opposite. My head hits the pillow, and within a minute I am zonked for 8 hours. She struggles to get to sleep and often takes a sleep aid. I haven't always been like that. There were times when I had stress in my life that I could not get to sleep and I would take ambien for awhile. During those times I would have trouble getting to sleep, but then I would suddently wake up at 3am for no reason. Ambien corrected that cycle. This is what has helped me - lifting weights. Never have a problem if I work out at least 4 days per week. Don't know why, but it works for me. Here are some tips:
-Regular exercise
-No caffiene after 3pm
-Make it dark in that bedroom
-Fan
-I agree w/ Alpiner on the medication

As a recovering alcoholic/addict, chemical solutions were off the table of course.

Your local "recovery store" doubtless has some tapes, etc. that can help using either technique.

Deep muscle relaxation consists of alternately clenching and tightening various muscles throughout your body (don't forget the ones in your throat) and then consciously noticing the difference between the two states, tension and relaxation. This will create a biofeedback to reduce anxiety, much of which is stored in the body.

You can proceed from their to "guided imagery" relaxation easily enough, I liked the combination of the two...

You don't have to get all hokey and New Age about this stuff; it's really some common sense ways of dealing with a pretty universal problem.

It can be too hard on your liver. The active ingredient is the same thing in Benadryl, so if you want to switch to that, your liver might thank you later.

If you have any other parasomnias, keep in mind Ambien can exacerbate those- sleep walking, driving, eating, cleaning etc...

Sometimes writing things down that are bothering you can help.

I'm a life-long insomniac with multiple parasomnias. For a few years, I dealt with it by getting drunk every night to make me pass out. That's not a healthy way to deal with insomnia and after a health scare, I stopped drinking so much. Exercise can help, but if you're anything like me, it only works for a couple of weeks and you're back on the sleepless wagon again. I keep meaning to try melatonin, the time released one, at the suggestion of my human development professor. Just a warning though, if you're prone to depression, it can worsen it. I've also tried chamomile and valerian root, but nether work. I do take Benadryl every night and since I have severe allergies, it helps with two things. My doc has said it's fine.

Having a nightly routine helps, but I still have a lot of trouble getting to and staying asleep. Good luck to you!

I'm not sure what the other ingredient is in Tylenol PM, but I think it's diphenhydramine or Benadryl--same thing.

Like most of the sleep medications, it's somewhat addictive and causes withdrawal symptoms for a time after discontinuation. It also changes your sleep on a brain level. I guess some people tolerate this okay, but my husband did not.

I thought he had early on-set Alzheimer's disease. Seriously, forgetful and cranky on a major scale. I was going to insist he go to a neurologist or I was going to divorce him.

He finally admitted that he was taking 50 mg of Benadryl morning and night for his allergies and had been for months. I threw a fit. He quit. Brain function returned.

When I took my teen daughter to a sleep disorder clinic they said that taking any medication for sleep reduced the chance of overcoming the sleep problem. That's what the evidence showed.

There's some really good advice here. Good luck.

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure what the other ingredient is in
> Tylenol PM, but I think it's diphenhydramine or
> Benadryl--same thing.


Yup! You are correct, that is what is used in many OTC sleep medications. It slows down the metabolism a bit, so that's why it's effective on allergies and makes one sleepy.

It also changes your
> sleep on a brain level. I guess some people
> tolerate this okay, but my husband did not.

There are some odd side effects from this ingredient, especially if you already have parasomnias. When I first started using it to sleep at night, a few months in, I had auditory hallucinations and "Exploding Head Syndrome." It freaked me out and I thought I was losing my mind. If you have Restless Leg Syndrome, (I do) diphenhydramine can also exacerbate it.

When I say I have multiple parasomnias, I'm not exaggerating. They're also inherited, so it might be worth it to find out if anyone in your family has any sleep disorders. My sisters and a brother have them, too.

Alcohol also affects your sleep area in the brain, so if you drink at all, be prepared to have side effects.


You have to take an inventory to see what you can live with and what you can't tolerate if you have sleep issues. The RLS has calmed down as have the EHS and auditory hallucinations, but if you don't know what's going on, it's terrifying. I also thought I might have early onset Alzheimers.

Last summer, I took a refresher course in Psych 101 to make sure I had a basic understanding of psychology. My instructor had a week devoted to sleep and the psychology of it and I had the opportunity to divulge this information (some learned from this board) to my classmates and teacher. I cannot thank this board enough for helping me understand many of the issues I struggle with and am happy to help others. :)

OMG! I thought I was the only weirdo who got restless leg with Benadryl. And with alcohol sometimes. The things we learn.

I agree with others that it would be in your best interest to wean yourself off of the sleep meds. I agree with Itzpapalotl that Benadryl would be preferable to other sleep aids for now.

Pay attention to sensory factors, especially the temperature of the room. A cooler room is preferable. You might need a sleep mask or blackout curtains to cut back on light. Some people need a gentle noise as they sleep -- either radio, CDs, or nature sounds.

Don't have any caffeinated beverages or chocolate after mid-afternoon. Try taking a bath before bed. Perhaps read a novel before bed. Sleeping with a pet beside you can be soothing. For some people, having a snack before bed helps.

I take a couple of melatonin, a couple of benedryl and turn off all the lights. I focus on what I need to get done the next day. Before I know it I'm out.

Try to stick to a consistent schedule, when possible.

I find staying up a little later helps me sleep through the night, as opposed to going to bed earlier and waking up at 3 a.m.

That depends on how tired I am the night before.

Sleep aids that help me fall asleep are homeopathic. Midnite PM is one, with chamomile, lavendar, and melatonin combo. Another that works as well for me is Unisom. Neither is addictive, and can be found over the counter at your pharmacy.

Computers or watching tv right before bed keep us awake longer, because of the LED lights - so it's best to stay away from that a good hour before bedtime.

Same for exercise. In the hour leading up to bedtime is the worst time to exercise because the endorphins will cause you to be more alert and awake, and you won't be ready to fall asleep.

Someone mentioned Benadryl. That also helps to fall asleep, but I save that for when I might have a rash or during pollen season.

Have you tried watching General Conference?

White noise, like a fan or someother noise that is constant. They have apps for your Ipad or phone to use so its free.

I feel for you. I never had problems falling asleep until after I had my twins. They are 29 years old now. Then when my husband left, I had anxiety at night about someone getting in. My psychiatrist at the time put me on trazodone. Thing with trazodone is I started having wild dreams, multicolored and fast moving. Other friends had the same side effect.

Sorry, whatever anyone else says, I HAVE TO HAVE THE TV ON at night. My dad slept with the TV on, my brother sleeps with the TV on. It is the one thing that keeps me from thinking. I can turn on an episode of a show I like like House and I'm out before the introduction music plays.

I do take 1/4 dose of benadryl if I need help and that will put me to sleep. Too much more than that and I get the jitters. I can't take Tylenol PM. That kept me up all night.

I sometimes work drug rehab. They use melatonin, valerian, or Sleepy time tea from Celestial Seasonings.

There's no guarantee, but any of the above can be quite helpful.

I tried Melatonin last night and I don't think it helped. I have had a sleeper called Alteril, which has Melatonin, L-triptophan, and Valerian, that usually works.

What about warm milk, or even cold milk. I once knew a day care provider who used to give her charges milk, and peanut butter and crackers before naptime. She used it on old people in the hospital after she became a nurse, when they'd have trouble sleeping. Worked like a charm.

Other Susan

Half an hour of aerobic exercise followed by a hot shower is a good way to knock yourself out. Take an evening jog.

There are already a lot of good tips in this thread. Here is a book tip (written by a German physician, Dr. Claudia Croos-Müller). Now you only have to find yourself a German translator ;-) ... It's a very small booklet and there's also an audio-book edition.

http://www.amazon.com/Schlaf-gut-%C3%9Cberlebensbuch-Soforthilfe-Schlechtschlafen-ebook/dp/B00LTPOKVA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435442110&sr=8-1&keywords=croos-m%C3%BCller+schlaf

https://download.e-bookshelf.de/download/0002/6958/34/L-X-0002695834-0004541587.XHTML/index.xhtml

It looks like a children's book, so don't be fooled by this appearance. It really works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBOG4yVlJkk
10:00 minutes ff. before you go to bed do all things in slow motion for example ...

Try Sleepy Time tea, and/or essential oils for relaxing (there are tons on the market). They work well when rubbed on the bottoms of your feet.

Also, I had a friend who couldn't sleep after contracting a parasite. I don't know much about them but I guess the parasites sleep during the day and become active at night. They somehow cause anxiety and cravings.

I have also heard digestive issues can impact sleep. You might want to look into your gut yeast levels as well.

I would really look at your diet.

I wish you the best!!

Hi, I'm a very long time lurker and a very rare poster. I don't want you to think I'm a spammer. I have terrible trouble sleeping because my brain won't shut off either.

I worry and relive old painful experiences over and over at night. But I finally found "Sleep With Me" podcast. The guy that does the podcast tells bedtime stories, intended for grownups. (They aren't XXX adult, they are just not intended for kids) Basically he found the sweet spot between being too interesting to want to stay up and listen, and being so boring that you ignore it and keep worrying.

Of course it doesn't work for everyone, but it literally changed my life and a lot of other folks too. I'm not exaggerating. Instead of worrying for 2-3 or more hours, I'm out within half an hour when I listen to his podcast.

I'm not a spammer....I'm not paid, and neither is the podcast creator. To me he is literally a miracle. It doesn't work for everyone, but if your sleep issue is an overactive mind, I highly recommend this podcast.

Sleep With Me podcast is on iTunes and your other common podcatchers.

Two essential oils that can help make you drowsy and can rival zanax and valium for relaxation: Lemon Balm and Passion Flower. Go with a brand that has an excellent reputation. Where melatonin supps are concerned, they can really end up messing with your natural sleep patterns as well as other nasty side effects.

Exercise, eat healthy, no caffeine, no eating after 7:00 p.m., watch your alcohol, meditate, learn to breathe with your diaphragm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2015 09:44PM by wine country girl.

I rarely had a good, solid, restful night's sleep until I was 50.
It was then that my doctor gave me a prescriptions for clonazapam for reasons other than sleep issues.
However, the first night, just before I went to bed, I took one clonazapam
and had probably the best, deepest, most wonderful night of sleep I had ever had.

Although nothing will match that first night's sleep on clonazapam, it still works wonderfully for me years later.
You might want to discuss clonazapam with your doctor.

One bag of chamomile, and one bag of peppermint tea steeped in hot water, mixed with honey...with the Book of Mormon on your bedstand for nighttime reading...because if that doesn't put you to sleep, I don't know what will!

My insomnia is not nearly as bad as yours. I just stay up really late until I am utterly exhausted and can't stay awake anymore. It keeps me from lying awake at night thinking. Reading a somewhat boring book can help me become sleepy.

For years, I would get up on the average of 6 times a night. Sometimes I would wake up in a state of panic, why heart pounding, gasping for breath, with a feeling that I was going to die. I would have to get up, turn on the light, do yoga breathing, read poetry, walk around the house, or go outdoors, to calm myself down.

I have sleep apnea. I had to have a sleep test to confirm it. Having your breathing stop, feels like dying, or choking to death. Now I have a small mask that goes over my nose, and I don't get up once. It is such a joy to wake up after having been unconscious for 8 hours! I feel better all day, never take a nap. The final clue was when I started wanting to fall asleep during business meetings--that I usually find very interesting.

Don't take ambien or melatonin, because those prevent your body from manufacturing its own natural melatonin. I took ambien for 3 days, and stopped. I couldn't sleep at all for 4 nights. The worse the insomnia got, the madder I got!

Don't go near caffeine. Don't even touch it. Ever. If you're not willing to give up caffeine, then don't bother getting anyone's advice about white noise machines, sleep masks, ear plugs, blackout blinds, yoga relaxation, oils, massages, sex or no sex, types of pillows, TV watching, reading, or anything else. One drop of caffeine (including chocolate) any time of day, and I can forget about sleeping that night. I don't think it's just me. I challenge you to try it. It might take you a few weeks to wean yourself off of caffeine. Cut it in half, then 4 days later cut it in half again, 4 days later cut in half again, until your caffeine intake is zero--and you will be sleeping all night. I promise!