The "Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith" are a vital part of the Jewish liturgy, and experience. Dating back hundreds more years than the *Thirteen Articles of Faith* by Joe and Company.

How much of Judaism influenced Joseph's thinking in addition to the excerpts plagiarized from his King James family bible kept in the Smith upstate NY farmhouse?

Your guess is as good as mine. But he did recreate his version of the Jewish *13 articles of faith,* reproduced for his fledgling church he set about to create. Gotta give him credit for borrowing from many different creeds like the Masons, the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, Isaiah and now I'm adding Maimonides to Joe's fray, who drafted the original 13 Principles of Jewish Faith that's used to this day - is it a coincidence Joe came up with the same number as Maimonides did? Knowing his history of plagiarizing ideas, I hardly doubt it.

He took from the best sources he could find for his day to make up the Mormon religion. Even the Egyptian funerary papyri suited his purposes, because there weren't enough scholars around to call his bluff back then. That only came about later. :)

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2015 07:03PM by amyjo.

While these are historically accurate to the place and the time where they were compiled (twelfth century C.E.), these are (other than as contemporary historical scholarship of that era) "believed" by only SOME Jews (mostly Orthodox...undoubtedly descending rapidly in percentages across the left-of-Orthodox Jewish spectrum).

The entire subject of "belief" among Jews is somewhat anachronistic, because although it still might be of some interest to right-of-Modern-Orthodox Jews, it does not apply to MOST Jews...many (and increasing numbers) of whom are atheists and agnostics.

I converted to Judaism through the Conservative Movement (some of the rabbis teaching our class had received their smicha---"ordination"---through the Reconstructionist movement). But we're talking basically rabbis who made the personal decision to observe those of the 613 (the traditional number of Jewish commandments) they feel led to, which is what a large part of the Conservative movement is about)...and then, on a personal level, they mostly ignore the rest)...and I would say, from listening to their individual takes on Judaism, that most of the rabbis who converted me would probably qualify as atheists or agnostics (whether they would admit this to any congregations who might be interviewing to hire them or not).

Among world Jewry today, the percentage of atheist and agnostic Jews is very rapidly increasing (led, in no small part, by Israelis---whether born Israeli, or naturalized Israeli). On THIS level, I would guess that either Conservative or Modern Orthodox is the dividing point between the "believers" (on the right-hand side), and the non-believers on the vastly larger left side of the spectrum. There are obviously generational gaps, and in a particular Conservative family, for example, there may be grandparents who "believe," grown offspring who are sort of this-and-that, and increasing numbers of offspring (who may be adults themselves, with their own children) who think it is all academic anyway. (In other words, they are effectively agnostic/atheist, whether they identify as such or not.)

I have great respect for the Rambam (Maimonides) and his many significant accomplishments. He was working in a difficult period of time, and he served the Jewish people well---not only back then, but as a rallying point for future generations.

That doesn't mean that what Maimonides, in the twelfth century C.E., said pertains to any Jews other than those who choose to identify with those particular words...

...and when it comes to the Thirteen Principles, that means, TODAY, basically Jews (late teens through adulthood) who identify with a Jewishness which is largely CONSERVATIVE "Conservative" and then on to Modern Orthodox and the Jewish right-wing beyond.

Every Jew chooses their own level of "belief" (if any, in the sense that we are talking about it here)...and what Maimonides said almost nine centuries ago may, or may not, be part of those choices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2015 07:28PM by tevai.

Interesting take. Thanks for sharing another perspective.

This 13 principles was shared last evening by a Reform Jewish cantor at a Shavuot service (late at night, to similate the going up to Mt. Sinai to receive the Torah, there were hour long speeches by different leaders in the local Jewish community.)

She remarked had there been even *one* Orthodox Jew in the crowd last night (there were none,) that she would not have been allowed to speak, as females would be forbidden to among the Orthodox.

We're mostly a Conservative group last night, with a sprinkling of Reform. Yet the 13 Principles are in the Conservative siddur, although I hadn't seen them recited before last night (and I've been attending there *lightly* for the past four years..)

Our rabbi doesn't give me the sense he's agnostic or atheist. I hadn't heard that before about rabbis. But some Jewish mothers and grandmothers told me to tell my children who struggle with their faith, that it's Jewish to be atheist or agnostic. Because it's alright to wrestle with &/or struggle against God, as we perceive him to be.

That's not something we were allowed to do as Mormons. We just were supposed to accept everything verbatim, as is, without question. The beauty of Judaism is it's Jewish *to* question. Quite the opposte approach from Mormonism.

amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The beauty of Judaism is it's Jewish *to* question.
> Quite the opposte approach from Mormonism.

I totally agree with you on this!!!

:)

Jeesssssus Fu@#ing Christ!!!!!
This angers me....
How did Jews come up with their tenets?
Do you see any real, truth based fact in any of their tenets?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2015 08:12PM by quinlansolo.

Did you catch the part about these being written almost nine centuries ago (sometime in the late 1100s???)???

Not a lot of "real, truth based fact" in ANY philosophy or theology ON THE PLANET circa the twelfth century C.E.

This is just one example.

;) ;) ;)

What it shows to me is another example of Joseph's plagiarizing key tenets of other religions. Whether it came straight from his bible, or the Masonic rituals, or the American folklore books he plagiarized, among other ideas and writings.. he took Maimonides ideas (who is like a canonized saint is among Catholics only to the Jews as a theologian, philosopher and rabbi,) and *converted* them into what he describes as his *own* "13 Articles of Faith."

Joseph had ample opportunity to have access to Maimonides, if he had any access to libraries, whether church libraries, personal libraries, or public ones. While the 13 Articles of *Faith* of the Mormon religion may be different in form, the idea of Maimonides "13 Principles of Jewish Faith," very well may be what *inspired* ole Joe to brew up another *revelation.*

He just begged, stoled, and borrowed whatever he felt like taking (not just other men's women or child wives.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2015 08:42PM by amyjo.

I agree with you on this, too, amyjo...

If I am remembering correctly, he studied Hebrew---which had to be kind of a stretch back then, because it was all (at least, here in the USA) biblical/archaic Hebrew, and the "easy Hebrew" teaching devices that we have now just didn't exist back then.

And, although I know that biblical/ancient Hebrew was being taught to at least some of the exclusively male students of Harvard, etc., it would have been so hard to learn it without a supportive classroom structure.

But he sure could have been introduced to Maimonides along the way.

Thanks for the insights. I didn't know about the Hebrew, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. That would've been right up his alley.

Smith has been attributed as a religious "genius," even by his critics. He took the best of what he came across, like he was making a casserole, and threw it all together until it sticked.

Joseph Smith Sr. had been a school teacher as one of his trades while Joe Jr. was growing up. He may have even been a source of much of Joseph's early education, and books though rare to come by, would've been treated with the utmost respect deserving of by those with any intellect and desirous of gaining an education. The Smith's may have been poor, but were certainly ambitious!

Even Joe's father was a treasure seeker, along with his sons. Perhaps for them, the lure of Indian buried treasures spurred them on, in addition to their poverty, to make a better life for themselves as frontiersmen in upstate NY. Joe just excelled most at committing pious fraud, than he did anything else he aspired to. It was an easy way for him to make a living compared to that of a laborer.

Tevai –

This was one of the people (the only person?) that Smith studied Hebrew with — http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Neibaur

Incidentally, Neibaur is the great-grandfather of Hugh Nibley, through his daughter, Rebecca.

Tristan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai –
>
> This was one of the people (the only person?) that
> Smith studied Hebrew with —
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Neibaur
>
> Incidentally, Neibaur is the great-grandfather of
> Hugh Nibley, through his daughter, Rebecca.

This is a fascinating story, Tristan...and I had no prior knowledge of anything related here, so I am very glad to now be able to make some important connections.

I appreciate you posting this!!!

Thank you!!!

:)

Tristan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai –
>
> This was one of the people (the only person?) that
> Smith studied Hebrew with —
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Neibaur
>
> Incidentally, Neibaur is the great-grandfather of
> Hugh Nibley, through his daughter, Rebecca.

_________________________________________________

Thanks for providing this link Tristan.

I read there Neibaur converted to Mormonism in 1837, and baptized in 1838. He arrived in Nauvoo 1841; it was only then he developed a close friendship with Smith and undertook to teach him German and Hebrew.

Well, the Articles of Faith weren't written before 1842. That was well after his introduction to the study of Hebrew from Neibaur. Maimonides would've been prominent in his studies, owing to his near deification by Jewish scholars. So therein lies the link to Joe's acquaintance to the 13 Principles of Jewish Faith, through Neibaur's association. The timing is telltale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2015 09:13AM by amyjo.

And don't forget his Hebrew studies with Joshua Seixas.



http://mormonlady.se/2010/04/28/joshua-seixas-joseph-smith-s-teacher-in-hebrew/

Thanks for sharing link! Smith had to indoctrinate himself in other religions up to a point, in order to take away what would be helpful to him grow his own as a false seer and profit.

:)

That was the other name I was looking for! I'd read about him in an article a year or two back.

It's been observed that a sect emerges when it emphasizes some aspect way more than the existing faith; the sect is recognizably an offshoot of that faith. While a cult has an eclectic belief system, assembled out of bits and pieces of various other faiths.

Smith's doctrine was eclectic, all right.

Hmm, interesting. Mormonism is pure cult through and through, so that's another proof in the pudding that's what it is. I don't doubt Joseph knew he was creating something from nothing, but not based on inspiration, and certainly not revelation.