For the entire time I’ve been on RFM it’s been my policy to stay far away from the ongoing atheist / religionist debate. I knew I wouldn’t be able to keep that up forever. And this thread is the one that finally made me fall off the wagon.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1587402,1587402#msg-1587402

As many of you know from my posting record on this board, I make every effort to engage in respectful and enlightening dialog. If what I have to say below appears otherwise, then either you are misunderstanding me, or more likely I’m just clumsy and have failed to achieve my own ideal. But it’s still my ideal, so please hear my intent.

As an outsider to both Mormonism and the sentiments being expressed (as of this writing) on the thread linked above, what I am reading sounds an awful lot like the clichés Mormons (and other groupthinkers) use to soothe themselves and their kind when members leave. “Lazy, offended, just wanted to sin, etc.”

Why do Mormons say such things? I mean, why do they choose those particular things to say? Because they’re true! No, I don’t mean that they’re always true of every person in every exit situation. Of course not.

But they’re true enough of enough people to become a cliché. And, of course, Mormons are filtering the data to arrive at a faith-promoting explanation of apostates as opposed to really digging in and figuring out if there’s any substance to the non-faith-promoting reasons given by those who are exiting.

When you yourself exited Mormonism for reasons having nothing to do with laziness (and especially if you were an active, worthy member) don’t you find it to be at least a little bit insulting to be lumped in with the truly lazy ones?

When you yourself exited Mormonism for reasons having nothing to do with being offended (other than the offence of learning that you were lied to) don’t you find it to be at least a little bit insulting to be presumed so immature as to leave the (drumroll please) One True Church over a mere personal slight?

When you yourself exited Mormonism for reasons having nothing to do with wanting to sin (but let’s rename this one to ‘wanting to abandon all morality’ since that’s the connotation) don’t you find it to be at least a little bit insulting when you get no credit for your genuine attempts to maintain a moral compass during the difficult, confusing experience of exiting, and during the life you built afterwards?

Don’t you find it humorous at best, and pathetic at worst when Mormons sit around in their holy huddle / echo chamber tsk tsking in their self-righteous and condescending tones about those who leave, including you, agreeing with each other not because they actually know anything, but because it feels good; it feels right to do so?

(By the way, just for the record, I don’t actually know from my own primary research that Mormons do this. I’ve only heard about it from people that I find to be believable, and some of those people are you.)

HERE’S THE PIVOT

So can you understand why, when a Christian like myself and many other religionists on this board, hears a group of atheists sitting around and posting things that sound TO US like self-soothing clichés ABOUT US that we find it to be at least a little bit insulting?

Isn’t it reasonable for us to take exception to being described as people who prefer to have others do our thinking for us if we know the reality to be that we are and always were and always will be fiercely independent individuals?

Isn’t it reasonable for us to take exception to being described as choosing our particular religion because “it works for us” if we know the reality to be that we struggled mightily AGAINST that religion until being overpowered by the logic and coherence and cohesiveness of it as we see it?

Isn’t it reasonable for us to take exception to being described as motivated by tradition and/or tribe if we know the reality to be that we had to LEAVE our tribe in order to eventually land where we are today?

Isn’t it reasonable for us to take exception to having our leaders described as charlatans / shysters / phonies if we know the reality to be that we VERY CAREFULLY vetted over an extended period of time both the organization we have affiliated with and its leadership, and have benefitted mightily from both? And become at least minor leaders of one kind or another ourselves, driven by the same self-sacrificing love that was shown to us?

Isn’t it reasonable for us to view your clichés as such when we find that NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM applies to us?

And why do you say such things? I mean, why do you choose those particular things to say? Because they’re true! No, I don’t mean that they’re always true of every person in every religious situation. Of course not.

But they’re true enough of enough religious people to become a cliché.

But, you may say, these are not clichés, we’re simply telling it like it is. We’re just speaking the truth.

Don’t you think Mormons say the same thing about their clichés? That they’re simply telling it like it is; that they’re just speaking the truth? Where’s the difference?

Are atheists filtering the data to arrive at a safe explanation of religious behavior as opposed to really digging in and figuring out if there’s any substance to the reasons given by those who are religious?

[OMG! YOU’RE STILL READING THIS CRAZY RANT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?]

We here on this board share a common cause regarding Mormonism. We have worked together on many projects like to inform the drive-by posters who just need an expert to enlighten them. And we rally around the broken-hearted among us. In light of all that, why would you atheists mistreat us religionists pretty much the same way Mormons mistreat you? Is it perhaps because you haven’t yet purged all the Mormon ways out of your system? Do you think we don't hear you? Are you so self-absorbed you don't care?

Do you EVER see religious people congregating on a thread on this board to insult, denigrate, and/or mock atheists for their bone-headed obstinacy toward the obvious truth that God is real? Is there a constant drumbeat of condescension coming from religionists toward atheists?

To be fair, this board is, after all, called “Recovery From …” and it wouldn’t matter what word comes next: all those who dare enter here are warned by just the first two words to expect unfiltered thoughts and raw emotions. Both mine and yours. That is as it should be. We are indeed recovering. All of us.

And Heretic 2 did say in his opening of the linked thread: “I am so jaded, hostile, and skeptical.” That is so very way far understandable in the ex-mo context. In any ex-OTC context. And it described me for at least five years of my ex-OTC life as well. And yes, I was quite a jerk during that time. I’ll let you be the judge of whether I still am.

Ok, I hope that was at least entertaining. And was passable as respectful and enlightening. But most of all, I hope it grabbed your attention and provoked you not to raw animosity but to measured consideration. No, really, stop and think about it.

I’m going to go back to my knitting now, if I can remember where I put the yarn. Dang, my life is being overrun by senior moments.

JAR

P.S. Oh, shoot! Did I just press SEND? That wasn’t supposed to happen. Cancel, cancel, CANCEL. Sigh. Too late. Now everybody hates me.

These debates do get tiresome. Too many times I see people getting pushed around just because they do want to continue spiritual pursuits. It can be very helpful to do so, it helped me way back when I got out. And there are many worthy spiritual pursuits, which are not oppressive, sexist and racist like Mormonism. Or expensive (can be free!).

Some exmo's think that everyone should believe, or not believe, as they do. Unfortunately their black and white thinking still has not changed. No reason for one size fits all. I do have some belief in spiritual pursuits, and my guy does not. But we don't argue about it, it is ok to have different views.

Hope ya find your yarn!

So can you understand why, when an Atheist like myself and many other Atheists on this board, hears a group of theists sitting around and posting things that sound TO US like self-soothing clichés ABOUT US that we find it to be at least a little bit insulting.


I guess you enjoy beating that strawman you have created.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2015 01:13AM by Dave the Atheist.

"Do you EVER see religious people congregating on a thread on this board to insult, denigrate, and/or mock atheists for their bone-headed obstinacy toward the obvious truth that God is real? Is there a constant drumbeat of condescension coming from religionists toward atheists?"
============================

Can a bullshit statement get anymore insulting than this ?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2015 01:27AM by Dave the Atheist.

Hey JAR,

I don't post often, but I've been following your threads, and I find you thoughtful and observant, in this post and others.

For some background: I'm BIC, left TSCC young, and my exit was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life. Keep in mind, I left without researching doctrine or history; I left because my survival depended on leaving. I reasoned that I'd rather deal with a horrible Mormon afterlife than live as a Mormon woman, a fate that seemed worse than an eternity in outer darkness or wherever Mormon god would send me.

After many years and personal work, I found a great deal of comfort in embracing a non-theistic world view. The idea of a universe with no god felt freeing. At the same time, I found it difficult to understand how my TBM parents couldn't reach the same conclusions as me. How could they believe in a faith-system so obviously fraudulent?

Then I read "How We Believe" by Michael Shermer (and yes, I've also read the threads about his poor conduct as a human being, but I still find this book enlightening). From this book, I learned that believers and non-believers apply essentially the same mental and emotional processes to reach their conclusions. If this idea is correct (and I think it is) then my experience of freedom in my non-belief is shared by believers. We have common ground here, even though we reach different destinations.

Finally (and this is a new idea), I'm a writer. As an artist, I use my imagination to create. In many ways, writing a story or a poem or a novel is an imaginative act of faith. While I have no reason to believe my work will have meaning to anyone other than myself, I still imagine, write, submit to publishers, get rejected, revise, and submit again. See--faith. Recently, I've considered that religious belief is also an act of imaginative creation, just applied in a different context. This type of faith I can respect, maybe even understand, even though I don't share in the experience. Then again, not everyone shares my artistic experiences, or fully understands what words and stories mean to me, but that's ok. If I'm going to celebrate the beauty and meaning literature adds to my life, then I feel I can also celebrate the beauty and meaning religious faith adds to others' lives.

Where I draw the line is when people use their faith as a method of control. When a person of faith claims their beliefs justify violence, racism, sexism, homophobia, or intolerance of any kind then I reject their faith. In these situations, faith no longer serves as an act of creativity and imagination. Rather, faith becomes a bludgeon used to harm others, and I've been through that already. Not for me.

So, I can see your viewpoint about the easy cliches some non-believers apply to believers. Yes, these cliches are often sweeping generalizations that don't apply to all believers. They don't apply to my parents, who taught me all people are equal, and we should fight both injustice and intolerance (I guess this lesson didn't apply to me leaving the church, which was crazy confusing when I was younger, but that's another thread).

However, it would be nice if believers would more often acknowledge all the great harm, suffering, pain, trauma, tragedy, and cruelty believers have inflicted on the world over thousands and thousands of years. It would be nice for faith to more often be an act of creative imagination rather than a weapon for oppression. And if some non-believers are angry about the long, horrible, and continuing use of faith as a weapon, well I understand that, too.

After all, we're still living in religion's aftermath, and often it's ugly as sin.

Thanks for posting (and I hope reading this reply).

molly

molly_phobic Wrote:
--------
>
> However, it would be nice if believers would more
> often acknowledge all the great harm, suffering,
> pain, trauma, tragedy, and cruelty believers have
> inflicted on the world over thousands and
> thousands of years. It would be nice for faith to
> more often be an act of creative imagination
> rather than a weapon for oppression. And if some
> non-believers are angry about the long, horrible,
> and continuing use of faith as a weapon, well I
> understand that, too.

-----------

Enjoyed your post molly, especially this last part.

You shot too broadly.

Both the theists and atheists here are very much individuals, and they do not act in any one particular way.

"Do you EVER see religious people congregating on a thread on this board to insult, denigrate, and/or mock atheists for their bone-headed obstinacy toward the obvious truth that God is real? Is there a constant drumbeat of condescension coming from religionists toward atheists?"

What a stupid and biased statement. I tend to not take part in the Atheist/Theist debates because I find them tiresome, but that statement is just plain dumb.

I don't think that's entirely fair. In my opinion, it's just as reasonable for a person to come to the conclusion that the facts point to the "obvious conclusion" there is a God as that the facts point to the "obvious conclusion" there is not a God (or a god). The latter is expressed all the time on this board, to the point that theists and their points of view are sometimes ridiculed without being given a fair evaluation. (I recognize that the most prominent atheists - e.g. Benson, DavetheAtheist, ificouldhie - on this board appear to have given the matter a great deal of evaluation and careful consideration, but that isn't always expressed in their posts.) Personally, I take the OP's statement to mean that the OP personally finds it obvious that there is a God, but understands others don't share that conclusion.

Help?

"This site is Christian friendly, but is not Christian safe."

There ya go.

__________________

To elaborate, I took that to mean what it says. If you don't understand the hostiliy, you don't understand the journey. It's not church-hopping (shopping) while carrying a constant, consistant goody-bag full of Jesus to every pew you fill.

Did your investigations and struggles cause you to lose your family, your job, your community, your language, the foundations of your being?

Imho, that was a very lazy comparison.

To which "substance" were you referring when you refer to "religion," and, how, exactly, does one "vett" a god?

You might claim that I misread, that you meant that you vetted the organization, but I stand by it. If it's a religious organization, any authority the leaders claim is based on their "superior" knowledge of the supreme being you worship. That, or it's not a religion. The leaders to whom you refer are your middle people (middleman).

I usually try to leave "believer" theads alone, let them find what comfort they will amongst themselves. Maybe your religion will someday teach you the concept. If atheism is not your "thing," just say "no" to clicking the link. It's full of fruit that is oh so naughty.

That whole warning right in the very beginning to avoid knowledge, it must be the most important thing to do. By all means, never try to find out more about that book, because any serious, non-lazy investigation into its origins will lead you straight to hell, A.K.A. atheism. Hell (tee-hee), even a cursory investigation would probably do.

BTW, my questions are rhetorical.

Dear J.A.R.,

Many new exmos who still need Christ structure/belief go to New Order M., or more gentle forums on post m., etc.

In order to understand why many exmos don't want a hint of organized religion, you would need to be in some of our shoes, with family blown apart, shunning, dealing with this insanity being born female...

Many Christians believe in the bible literally... We have had enough of tall tales, erroneous rules, a spiteful, inconsistent God... Those who defend the faith-Christian often get worn out here, or choose not to deal with atheists-content believing what they choose and worshipping where they choose. Sometimes they dive in with a flack jacket, and sometimes the insults start flying back and forth.

Some of us try to direct the tender skinned people to exmo authors or podcasts-those who still believe in Christ, and think RfM is a pile of angry debauchery.

Anyone can get answers about church history (real history) or doctrine by asking for help. The discouraged and shunned are buoyed up for a bit, to carry on another day. Eric and mods provide an invaluable service for those who need to vent, and feel understood for a moment.

Christ said judge not... yet that is a classic Mormon maneuver, which starts the angry ranting yet again...! =)

There are many kinds of recovering Mormons, many of whom don't get along. This animosity can't be fixed because of a wide gulf of perception between realists and idealists.

The idealists hold a mystical worldview and have a rich inner life. Their accumulated life experiences don't allow for the non-existence of God, whatever that may be. The basic problem in all this is that people get what they want.

Realists want "just the facts, maam". They can only go with their observed facts, so no God. No afterlife, no metaphysics, no transcendental woo stuff. There's no room for God in their world of "facts".

But, let's stop right there because further analysis is pointless. Remember, when a shelf collapses someone's world implodes. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Lives are in upheaval so people need to do what they need to do. An idealist has something after the collapse. The realist doesn't. It's utter destruction, and the happy little idealists come here and don't understand the realist's pain. Wouldn't you be pissed?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2015 04:23AM by bradley.

justarelative Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------
> As an outsider to both Mormonism and the
> sentiments being expressed (as of this writing) on
> the thread linked above, what I am reading sounds
> an awful lot like the clichés Mormons (and other
> groupthinkers) use to soothe themselves and their
> kind when members leave. “Lazy, offended, just
> wanted to sin, etc.”
> Why do Mormons say such things? I mean, why do they choose >those particular things to say? Because they’re true! No, I >don’t mean that they’re always true of every person in every >exit situation. Of course not.
>
>
>




Just a couple of thoughts on some of what you said.

First, why do Mormon's say things like "They lefts for sin and all that."
Well that is not a hard one to figure out. It's because they have to have a reason for why we left. Because it can't be anything to do with the church. The church isn't wrong, or untrue. It's not the church's fault that the person left. So it has to be something the person did, or didn't do. Also the leaders help spread this idea. From the top down this thought comes through. Growing up I had heard that these were the reason's people left. Because there was no other reason why a person would leave the one true church of god.
And sure there are people who leave for those reasons. But the problem is when anyone leaves they automatically though those labels out on people. And those are the only reasons they could leave.


> Are atheists filtering the data to arrive at a
> safe explanation of religious behavior as opposed
> to really digging in and figuring out if there’s
> any substance to the reasons given by those who
> are religious?
>

Your second thing about atheist. That is a pretty big brush you are using. atheists are just filtering data instead of really digging in and figuring out? Really? That's the same thing I have heard form Mormons. "Oh he didn't really dig in and figure out that the church is true. He just used easy anti-Mormon data from the internet and didn't even try to study it out and pray to know if the church is true."
Now again, sure there are some atheist who don't dig and search things outs. But that doesn't mean every atheist doesn't. You are coming at this with a view of "There is a God, and they just don't know it. So they haven't really studied and tried to find out." Which is exactly what Mormons say about ex-Mormons.


>
> Do you EVER see religious people congregating on a
> thread on this board to insult, denigrate, and/or
> mock atheists for their bone-headed obstinacy
> toward the obvious truth that God is real? Is
> there a constant drumbeat of condescension coming
> from religionists toward atheists?

YES, I see religious people congregating all over the place to insult and mock atheists. It's happens on both sides. And to act like theist or "religionists" don't do the same is just you sticking your head in the ground and acting like you are better then evil atheist.


I am very big on live and let live. Believe and let believe. (There are times to speak out. When people are being lied to and prayed upon. Or when it's unsafe or abusive)

I don't know why so many have this desire to pressure and push people into their way of thinking. You believe in God, good for you. That doesn't mean I have too. And yes I am angry. Yes I've been hurt. And if I want to come here and say how stupid it is to believe in God, then that's my right. Just as you have the right to come on here and say how great you think God is.

There are bad seeds in every camp. You just have to ignore those types of people and move on. People need to learn to get a thicker skin. Jar ask yourself, if an atheist is on here and is mocking a believer. Does it really hurt you? Have you lost money or family because of the post? Do you still have your belief? Stop trying to make others do things the way you think they should be done.

Live and let live. Believe and let believe.

Also, I hope everyone has a wonderful day.

~wg

justarelative Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So can you understand why, when a Christian like
> myself and many other religionists on this board,
> hears a group of atheists sitting around and
> posting things that sound TO US like self-soothing
> clichés ABOUT US that we find it to be at least a
> little bit insulting?

Sure, but should I not say what my opinion is *because* somebody might find it insulting? Somebody, somewhere, is likely to be "insulted" by just about anything; if not "insulting" anyone was the criteria used to express my opinions, I'd never say anything. That's not the criteria I use.

My opinion in that thread is that believing in and following "scripture" lets believers not have to think things through, abandoning that responsibility to the "scriptures." I've had enough experiences with believers to justify that opinion thousands of times over. I don't claim it applies to EVERY believer -- but it's common enough to indeed be ONE of the reasons for the popularity of "scripture."

If that "insults" you, then frankly that's YOUR problem. I didn't write it TO insult you, I simply stated my opinion based on experience. If the opinions of others based on experience "insults" you, then you're going to have a real hard time in the real world, and be darn near continuously going around feeling "insulted."

And I hope you're not trying to get people to not post their opinions because they might "insult" you. That's not going to happen, nor should it. Differing opinions are valuable -- they can be the start of debate, discussion, and learning. They're how we as a society hash out which ideas are worth considering and which aren't.

Part of your reply was a bit of a reasonable discussion about why some of the comments might not be valid. I would suggest you should have stuck with that tack, rather than complaining about being "insulted." Because being "insulted" isn't a good reason for people to not voice their opinions. Ever.


p.s. I don't hate you. I don't hate anyone. I encourage dissenting opinions from my own, and love to discuss them, even heatedly -- without hate.

I think we should take into account that people come here suffering, and we don't need an atheist pileon for each expression of faith. But some views are inherently insulting to some people. I think the Christian view that people who don't believe in Christ will not be saved and instead will be sent to a literal or figurative hell, or else will just miss out on the greatest thing ever, is inherently insulting to every one who doesn't belong to a christian faith. Athiesm is inherently offensive to Christians because we think that people probably just made God up.

The attitudes you describe Mormons having towards those who leave are the same attitudes I find Christians having towards Mormons.

Athiests do get insulted on this board, often by people who say that we are just like those nasty intolerant Mormons and they must not have really recovered and they are carrying all of that nasty crap with them. But at this point it doesn't bother me too much because I like Mormons pretty much as well as I like all other people. But there are ideas and systems that I find repulsive in Mormonism because those ideas and systems hurt people.

I think this board is less safe for religious belief because the emphasis here seems to be more on the newfound freedom to challenge ideas, instead of on the need to affirm people in whatever newfound belief.

Religious people tend to identify themselves with their belief, and if it is challenged they take it personally. Some non-religious people do too.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2015 12:32PM by xdman.

Some of the board atheists do remind me of the worst TBMs, but certainly not all. Both atheists and Christians are individuals and on this board most of them are fine. However, there are exceptions. Most of the Christians who are out of line get shot down quickly. Here atheists seem to get away with more.IRL, it is the opposite

The atheists aren't going to scare me off this board even though they ridicule my beliefs.

I know I'm right and they're wrong. I've had many, many spiritual experiences.

The vocal, often demeaning minority seems to rule.

Being a Christian on here often leaves me this message "you are so stupid for believing in God"

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The atheists aren't going to scare me off this
> board even though they ridicule my beliefs.
>
> I know I'm right and they're wrong. I've had many,
> many spiritual experiences.

Making it about being "right" or "wrong" and being 100% positive about your own position is part of the reason this issue can get so contentious. This is especially true if you are expressing religious belief, especially Christianity. This is understandable, given where many people have come from.

As for having "spiritual experiences", so have many Mormons, now ex-Mormons. They have found those experiences were not so spiritual after all, or at some point not persuasive. Therefore, it's easier to dismiss so-called spiritual experiences of others, especially when they are used to convince others of the "truth" of their religious belief. Having what you consider to be a spiritual event does not automatically indicate that your beliefs are true. But many believers will not admit this, or may not have a wide enough perspective to see the point.


> The vocal, often demeaning minority seems to rule.

Minority? I'd say the atheists here number more than that. Or maybe it just seems that way. :)


> Being a Christian on here often leaves me this
> message "you are so stupid for believing in God"

Yes. Because that is the opinion of some of the posters.

I understand that some of these expressions can feel demeaning. It's up to Christians, though, to manage their expectations, emotions and reactions here. There are still plenty of reasons to enjoy this board.

And.

I quite like some of the posters who happen to be atheist. They can be amusing, thoughtful, supportive, informed, sensitive, with great insights. Some may even have a point or two at times. :)

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The atheists aren't going to scare me off this
> board even though they ridicule my beliefs.

None of them (us) are trying to do any such thing.

> I know I'm right and they're wrong. I've had many,
> many spiritual experiences.

No, you don't "know" any such thing. You believe it. You can go a long way towards not being criticized if you'll stop claiming "knowledge" you don't have. Just as with mormons who claim to "know the church is true," it isn't knowledge you're operating on. It's belief. That's not the same as knowledge.

> The vocal, often demeaning minority seems to rule.

All opinions are expressed here. None of them "rule."

> Being a Christian on here often leaves me this
> message "you are so stupid for believing in God"

While there have been a very few times that message has been written here, it's not frequent at all. If that's what you get from reading here, I would suggest you read more carefully.

Who are you to tell me I don't know???

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who are you to tell me I don't know???

Words have meanings. Knowledge is defined as "justifiable true belief." That means it's demonstrable -- you can show me the evidence that justifies your belief being "true," and any rational person will agree.

That's not the case with your belief. It's based, as you said, on your own "experiences." I can't have your "experiences," you can't demonstrate they come from a "god," and there are numerous other possibilities of what your "experiences" may be other than things from a "god." So your belief is not justifiably true, and it's not knowledge. It's belief. That doesn't make it "wrong," it doesn't make it "right" -- it makes it your belief, but it doesn't make it knowledge.

You see, you can't prove there is no God. You can state you don't believe, but you can't prove it.

However you can prove to yourself there is a God. And, you can prove to others if one was to state something prophetic, and it came true.

I've proven to myself many times. Its actually not a big deal. Once you exersize faith and experiences happen, then they can happen easier and more frequent.

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once you exersize faith and
> experiences happen, then they can happen easier
> and more frequent.

So a basic psychological principle is what religious knowledge is?
Confirmation bias?

6 iron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You see, you can't prove there is no God. You can
> state you don't believe, but you can't prove it.

I don't claim there is no god. I just don't believe there is one, because there's no evidence to show there is one.

> However you can prove to yourself there is a God.
I disagree. I'm sure you and I don't mean the same thing when we use the word "prove."


> And, you can prove to others if one was to state
> something prophetic, and it came true.

I "prophesied" here not too long ago about what would be on my local 6 o'clock news. Six out of seven of my "prophecies" came "true." None of it had anything to do with any claimed "god" thing, and "prophecy" isn't "proof" of any claimed god-thing.

> I've proven to myself many times.

Good for you. Since you can't demonstrate that "proof" by evidence to anyone else, it's still not knowledge. No matter how much you want it to be.


> Its actually not
> a big deal. Once you exersize faith and
> experiences happen, then they can happen easier
> and more frequent.

Faith isn't knowledge either. And having "experiences" is evidence you have "experiences" -- it's not evidence they come from any claimed "god" thing. You and I DO have different meanings of "proof," because yours lacks rationality and uses fallacies.

Believe what you want. If it comforts you or makes you happy, great. Enjoy.
If you go out in public and make factual claims about your "experiences," or claim "knowledge" you don't have, don't expect such claims to go unchallenged. There are very good reasons to challenge them, and you don't have any "proof."

I can speak for myself saying I am not trying to drive you or anyone off the board. I would like you to stay.

I left the "church" after thirty years as a active adult member. I joined as a twenty year old and started the LDS journey with a gung ho fervor. After leaving the "church" I began a very angry period of disbelief in a divine being. After thirteen years of introspection, I came to an understanding of God through His son, Jesus. This is the path I have chosen and it has helped me in having empathy for others who have had similar relationships with cult situations. It has made me a more compassionate human being and has given me a new purpose for living to serve others.

- Andy Warhol

Yeah, I know.

I read the thread you posted at the top of your post.

Of the many, many posts I've read that castigate both believers and unbelievers, I'm gobsmacked that it's the post you linked to that was the one that "sucked you in". So that's in the first place.

In the second place, what in the name of holy spam allows you for even one moment to think that you can rudely write: "Do you EVER see religious people congregating on a thread on this board to insult, denigrate, and/or mock atheists for their bone-headed obstinacy toward the obvious truth that God is real?" without getting the nose-tweaking you richly deserve?

When I was a believing Mormon, I basically adhered to those concepts about people who left the church, although I tried to withhold all judgment to the extent I was able.

When I left the church, I was concerned about people thinking I did it because I was weak, lazy or wanted to do something the church calls "sin," but I don't think it was because their thoughts would offend me. Their opinions about me became irrelevant, except that I would hope that people who used to respect me would still respect me enough to inquire honestly into why I left instead of using the thought-stopping techniques taught by the church.

After I found out the church is wrong, but even before I stopped attending, I decided that the reasons cited by believers are actually not insults when understood properly. Someone who leaves the church out of "weakness" just discovered he/she was incompatible with the church and didn't want to play the game anymore. Someone who "wanted to sin" merely discovered that he/she no longer accepted the church's definition of "sin" and decided not to give the church any more power over him/her. People who were "offended" merely discovered that it wasn't necessary to stay in a human-made organization that makes them feel uncomfortable. I think all may deserve as much credit as those who studied their way out of the church.

As for the "insults" of believers by atheists, I do think it goes both ways on this board, and I find it tiresome as well. My main concern (as I've stated before) is that if we disagree with someone, it seems that in a recovery setting it is probably best to focus on the thing we disagree with and explain why, rather than resorting to an insulting statement that gives little insight. However, it is also fair to say that the people who write the insults are ALSO recovering and that may be their way of dealing with their own issues. And, as noted above, my impression of the atheists who comment here is that they HAVE given the matter a great deal of thought and their opinions are well-reasoned.

Although no one asked, my "beliefs" are that I see reasonable arguments on both sides. Depending on your definition, that could make me a theist or an agnostic or an atheist (if you consider a negative atheist to be a "true" atheist). I don't want to wear any label except that of a "nice guy" or an "honest guy." I find the concept of a supreme intelligence (but not the Christian God) persuasive, but I just don't know for sure. And I'm okay with not knowing. So I find it interesting to read the thoughtful comments of theists, agnostics and atheists.

JAR, I appreciate reading your posts here.

Living Mormonism and leaving Mormonism is painful to relationships in so many ways.

Sending THANKs to everyone for sharing their thoughts and for supporting otheors in pain! I have learned much here.

Understand this:

The main reason for the bashing and mocking of all things holy by most people here, is because they're taking it out on the one who supposedly heads the church, instead of the church itself!

The atheism here displayed by people is mostly reactionary; very little of it is legitimate atheism, in which people scrutinize, learn for themselves, investigate all things, and ask people. They are reactionary atheists, because they've been beat down by a cult that mentions "Heavenly Father" all the time and using his name to indoctrinate, intimidate and mentally cripple well-meaning moral people. And they take the name of Jesus Christ and reduce Him to a ceremonial role, casting Him in a false light. People here are so angry, they take out their frustrations on the one who actually wants to have a relationship with them, and that's God, and they lash out at the Savior whose own existence is ignored in sacrament meetings, never mentioned in temple ceremonies, and is relegated to all sort of artwork in paintings and sculptures, yet the church and TBMs refuse to accept His death on the cross as the way to salvation. That puts the hardcore atheists here and the TBMs in the same boat. I do NOT judge atheists, in fact I admire them for their real demonstration of moral values and honesty, and the fact their families are stronger and closer, yet the Bible makes it clear.

I understand their anger at the cult, but one big problem is that legitimate Christian churches don't do much to alleviate the problem in Utah, holding services on Sunday mornings when TSCC members are stuck in their wards, and the screaming and intimidation sign-waving Evangelical protesters show to them. I'm just as perturbed as you at Dave's insults, but you must understand the unfortunate vitriol they display towards God, after decades of indoctrination (especially those who went through MTC to become missionaries, and those who had to promise to commit suicide if they mentioned their temple experiences). It's only natural some people react the way the do, after what they put up.

I think atheists are great people, but I tend to respect those who delve deeply into the subject. Reactionary approaches to what we go through might be a sign we are all imperfect beings, and needing forgiveness.

agnesbroomhead Wrote:
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> The atheism here displayed by people is mostly
> reactionary;

Simply not true.

I took a long time and put a lot of thought into my non-belief in an invisible guy in the sky.

I see that same effort has been put in by many on here. There are a few who might be labeled "reactionary", but to call the majority that way is just another simplistic labeling technique to keep yourself content in your world view.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Nope, wrong.

And practically everything that comes after is just as incorrect.

The bible is Fiction.

Everything based on it is man made.

There are as many Mormonism's as there are Mormons.

There are as many Christanities as there are Christians.

All of them are equally wrong.

Funny how easy it is for believers to see how wrong other believers are, yet when it comes to their own delusions...

THAT went well!

;^)