This is not a post dealing with political ideology. It is a post about patriotism: the love and devotion to one's country and the cultural attachment to one's homeland.

I am a BIC Mormon - born into a large, multi-generational, zealous Mormon family with an extensive polygamous heritage. Mormonism has been the cultural identity of my family, my tribe, for over 165 years. Even with Mormonism's long, love-hate history with the governmental powers that be, we were always taught patriotism: love and devotion to country (I don't know how this doctrine is interpreted in other countries, but in my indoctrination it was devotion to the profound and glorious role of the U.S. Constitution in our eternal salvation) and devotion to our cultural homeland, which was always interpreted as the tribal culture of Mormonism.

Now, as an ex-mormon, I have found that, along with all the other paradigm shifts we experience, my idea of patriotism has dramatically changed. Beyond my immediate family - spouse and children - I have lost all sense of a tribe. I view political patriotism more critically. I have expanded my understanding of the human condition, and feel a greater affiliation with all people of the world. It is a mind-blowing high!

As an overwrought and emotional Lamanite (it's part of the curse) I remain quite pervious (if that's the opposite of impervious) to blatant Stars Spangled Banner patriotism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZZf619DIpo

I can watch this video (Lee Greenwood's "I'm Proud to be an American) and be manipulated into getting a lump in my throat, while at the same time mentally processing mental images of how venal and downright horrific the Anglo-American (White) record is on this continent. And you didn't necessarily have to have a skin tone other than White to have been effected. Although being brown or black helped you get your share...


(in the above video, go to 1:40 and examine the silliness in the left background! I glimpsed it and had to go back to see if it was real, and it was! Humans belong in the monkey house!)

I can relate to this post. I am in the military and have experienced a similar change. I have conflicted feelings standing for the star spangled banner. I also have trouble watching my children do the pledge of allegiance.

I started to view nationalism and patriotism as another form of mind control and indoctrination. It is hard having these feeling as an active duty soldier...not really comfortable talking about it much with my coworkers

brownbearman Wrote:
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>
> I started to view nationalism and patriotism as
> another form of mind control and indoctrination.
>
My thoughts exactly.

Europeans are rather shocked by the pledge of allegiance and all the flag raising and flag reverence in the US.

That sort of thing caused us so many wars over the centuries...

Tom in Paris

I feel the same way. I don't see why I need to be patriotic. I remember growing up learning that only the U.S. is free. That pretty much every other country sucks. Now while I do like it here, I just don't think we're the absolute best country ever.

I served in the U.S. Army. I was stationed in Germany (then West Germany) for three years. We were there to protect the country from a Russian (then Soviet) invasion. I saw Russian officers in uniform shopping in our PX (military retail store) in Frankfurt. They were loading their arms with European crystal at low subsidized prices. Those subsidies were paid for with American taxpayer dollars.

Things are not always what they seem to be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2015 05:59PM by donbagley.

Imagining growing up in another country and constantly hearing about how awesome a certain other country is.

Then go on a mission and hear even more about how your country sucks compared to the country where the majority of missionaries are from.

I think the LDS church does a good job of damaging patriotism in other countries, yet it often builds it up pretty strongly in the US. Another example of the two sides of the coin the church unwittingly brings with it.


Although to be fair the chance of the church damaging the patriotism of a fanatical Scotsman is about zero. I know quite a few of them.

Flower of Scotland to the end :)

I gave up a career as a military officer when I came to question the trouble we were causing around the world. Fighting for our freedoms, yeah, right.

All about money.

If you haven't yet, read General Smedley Butler's, War is a Racket.

People are easy to manipulate.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

I'm so very, very grateful for those who put it on the line for me, and so very sorry for the stupidness of suits who put you in even a greater harm's way, and have no concern of properly thanking or tending you, inside or out. They are like leeches on great stallions.

Because of you, I am free to read your messages here, and no, they need not be in support of Mormanism, Islam, Catholicism or any other ism. I am free to support you and love you, whatever your beliefs.

It's the existence of you, the possibility that you will be called and will answer that call, that keep savagery from calling on us. It's because of you we have electricity, indoor plumbing, grocery stores, hospitals and neighborhood parks.

When I vote, another thing so precious, yet taken for granted, I try to vote for you. I try to figure out who might best know history, other cultures, world events, even Sun Tzu, so that you will not be ill-used.

Some compare themeselves to millionaires, and believe they received the short end of the stick, not really understanding that even an old mobile home in the US would be a palace to others.

I don't stand on your shoulders; I rest in your shadow. I can never repay my debt to you.

That is the nature of my patriotism. I owe it to no politician. I owe it to you.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one


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Emancipate yourself from mental slavery,
None but ourselves can free our minds ...

Checking this site out for the first time. E OLD DOG linked to this site from postmormon.org.

I have to weigh in on this discussion. I believe in patriotism. I define it as "an alegience to the principles that ensure my and everyone elses freedom." Those ideas and principles are contained in the constitution and the rule of law. It also requires our participation in the process that decides the policies of our government(government of by and for the people where the power resides in and flowes from "us",not a privileged class of elite money interests).

This isn't what is happening now. A recient princton study revealed that in actuality the .o1% make almost all policy decisions that shape the direction of our country. Americans are over entertained and underinformed and incapable of casting an intellegent ballot.

Felix, I agree that our country is being stolen, and believe it's worth fighting for.

http://bigthink.com/articles/what-have-we-become

Many of us are just renters in America, not the real owners, no matter what your deed says.

Dream on, but try to keep an eye open for the Boston Marathon trial.

Yes, there are war profiteers, and they should be tried as such, but there are real-life zealots who see the freedoms enjoyed in the US as a blasphemous affront to their beliefs. If they can get WMD, they will gladly die for their cause.

I like dreamers. Idealists are the root of forward, upward movement, necessary to the advance of civilization.

Patriotism, nationalism ... to me it's just whipping up people's emotions around a cause. No different from some of the religions ... us and them. It's just propaganda to me. It's exploitation of a human instinct, people even feel this way about the companies they work for, the cities they live in, their sports teams, their car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIzw6NxM6zE

I was raised by small 'c' conservatives and my own philosophy is tending more towards Libertarianism. Never could bring myself to vote for a liberal or socialist party. We vote in Alberta on Tuesday May 5 and I'm undecided. I WILL vote ( I always do as I am of the firm belief that one cannot bitch about the government one gets if one does not exercise their franchise) ...but may spoil my ballot in protest of the less than stellar list of available candidates. I remain fiercely loyal to my country, Canada. Sorry to have dipped into politics but it's kinda front and centre here right now. Alberta is at a turning point and, BTW there are a few Mormons seeking public office.

RB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2015 07:42PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

People - Thank you for your comments, however, please keep it within the narrow bounds I defined in the original post and not get into politics to avoid getting deleted.

Controversial statement here. But it was one of our Canadian politicians from way, way back who introduced the story of mice as voters, and no matter who they voted in, they were always still just voting for a cat. You may vote in a different flavor, but there is essentially no difference to how things are run, they all serve the same master.

I don’t take much interest in politics. To me, it’s as fake as religion, a big illusion. They may throw you a bone once in awhile to win your vote, but essentially, nothing changes. This has always the way things have been, for centuries me thinks. Democracy, phhhht. Look into the consultation process used by businesses within communities, and you’ll see the same concept applied. Let people think they had a choice, and they’ll be happy. It's psychology.

And that's not discussing politics. It's just a statement about the concept of politics.

I feel the same way....you just put it into words for me.

And to throw in another little tid-bit. When people are unhappy about how things are ... they will blame and fight amongst each other over how each other voted. It keeps the heat off the top layer, who always intended for things to run the way they do. It's called divide and conquer theory, a great diversionary tactic. <sarc> It works very well. </sarc>

But enough from me. I don't want to depress everybody.
Who wants to get happy? :)

Like+1

Great way to put it.

Regarding the narrow framework of the OP, leaving mormonism when I did (before I'd burrowed under the high school history and civics books) I was reasonably 'patriotic'. But I've never been a 'rah rah' kind of enthusiast about anything other than love, sex, driving fast, but putting slow.

My contribution to the theme of patriotism is to think about being patriotic about our genus, Homo Sapiens sapiens. I always assume that it's going to be a treat to meet each and everyone of them. But I have one advantage that I think is easily recognized: I don't want anything from any of them.

One way to promote the heck out of it would be for shetland pony sized, meat-loving, meat-eating intelligent spiders to invade the earth. In the movie in my head, Billy Joe Bob Hatfield McCoy and his family are being chased by one of these slobbering, growling monsters and Rev. Al Jessie Hank Pearl Bailey yells, "Over here!" and then shots the spider. The shape of Al's body is all that Billy Joe sees; skin color would no longer be a 'thing.'

That'll be a nice day to look forward to... "...the content of a man's character..."

The idea of the constitution inspired by god, gone.

The idea that god was with the "gentiles" in colonizing America, gone.

The idea that American Indians were wicked and deserved to be nearly destroyed so a new people could fill the "promised land", gone.

etc.

Back when I was a member I am sorry to say I was one of the suckers who bought into American ethnocentrism. After leaving TSCC and doing time in the US Navy, I honestly hate the "America is the greatest" mentality that several Mormons and a few non-Mormons have (I sometimes call it the "Yankee Doodle Dumbass" mindset).
There is a huge world outside of the US and I want to see it for myself.

Civilized societies can function and exist without religion but not without government. (some will disagree with me on that statement)

There must be the rule of law which establishes order and the rules of fair play. Our form of government (the vision of the founders) sought to strip the power away from opressive despotic dictators such as kings and monarchs and place it in the hands of us common people to be the captains of our own fate. "You can ignore government but is won't ignore you."

In order to effectively participate and preserve our liberty we must know all relevent history, understand the constitution, current issues and jelously gaurd our liberty.

I did make reference to religion!!

Thank you, everyone, for all the thoughtful comments. I want those who have served in the military to know how much I personally appreciate and understand the vital service you perform for the rest of us. My father was a Marine in the South Pacific during WWII. I am lucky that he came home from the war, or I would not exist.

This past week I saw two shows that got me thinking about the Mormon concept of patriotism that I had been indoctrinated with. The first was the American Experience episode, 'The Last Days in Vietnam' and the second was the movie, 'The Imitation Game.'

As I mentioned, my father was a Marine and even though the war was horrific for him, as a family, we always honored his service. In 1966 my parents moved our very large, Mormon family to BC Canada. We lived there for many years - I was extremely young at the time and essentially grew up in Canada. However, it wasn't until just a few years ago that I truly understood what motivated my father to completely change his career, and uproot us all from a beautiful farm in the Pacific Northwest across the border into Canada.

I have two brothers, much older than the rest of us, that in 1966 were almost old enough to be drafted into the military. My father, the honorable, patriotic Marine, moved our family to Canada to save his sons from the Vietnam War.

I tell this story only to illustrate my shifting paradigm of what patriotism really is, and how good, thoughtful people, even heroes, evolve and mature in their perspectives.

Mormons pride themselves on their patriotism. However, Mormon patriotism is duplicitous by design: The US Constitution is divinely inspired, but the government organized under that Constitution is corrupt and has persecuted the saints. The Mormon priesthood will be called upon by God to save the Constitution. Only to then usurp the legal, constitutional government and replace it with a Mormon Theocracy. Joseph Smith announced his candidacy for President of the US, and two months later secretly crowned himself King of the World. This is not patriotism, this is treason!

The US-centric Mormon church had churches in Britain celebrating the defeat of Britain during the American War of Independence.

In 1976 they made all UK wards and branches sing "My Country 'tis of thee, whilst being made to stand to attention.

Myself and one or two other people decided, spontaneously, to sing our National Anthem, God Save the Queen, instead.

Mormonism. Cultural imperialism at its finest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2015 06:51AM by matt.

Is it just me or have others here seen that some of the loudest, most outspoken Mormon "patriots" never served one day in the Armed Forces?

My family taught that the US should be downgraded and the church should rise to dominate the culture. Looking back, they were wrong. If we see faults in the US, we need to do what we can to correct them. The morg won't do it for us.