I try to follow the Toltec teachings of Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements.
1. Be impeccable with your word.
2. Don't make assumptions.
3. Don't take anything personally.
4. Always do your best in all that you do.
I don't get into all the mysticism, because my dad raised me in ultra orthodox super crazy Mormon mysticism. He could have been Old Joe Smith's pal. My dad even thought he was to bring back polygamy back to the Earth in its "uncorrupted" form. Anyway, that's a different story.

My Bishop and I have an understanding. I told him I don't go to church because they don't adhere to my moral code and I feel they violate the standards they taught me to live, and he generally leaves me alone. He's a good guy as he came from Vegas, so he understands all the Utah "appearance" Mormons.

So, here is the dilemma. He asked me to talk in Sacrement meeting on Father's Day Sunday and I am not sure how I feel about this. I am not afraid of public speaking, I have to convince execs of a billion dollar company to spend large amounts of money on occasion. My Bishop said he wanted a talk about integrity and principles and I was the first he thought of. Now I haven't been to Church in over 4 years.

if I do speak, it will be about principles and the integrity that I believe in. I don't care what they think about me or even if they drag me into a court of love. The only reason my name is still on the books is to keep pressure off of my wife. I will maintain my integrity and speak truth. My intent is to help bring enlightenment and. Not bash the Church, but the subjects will get very uncomfortable. My wife is still TBM, so I don't want to humiliate he as I still love her dearly. My intent is not the go on n LDS Church basing session, but to try and open some eyes as to how sometimes the principles of TSCC does not promote good fatherhood. Due to my father's religious fixation, we are virtually strangers.

This will rock the boat of the standard sacrament meeting talk. What do you think, should I do it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2015 03:00AM by mickeymousemormon.

Can I tell you briefly what my TBM neighbor did?

He was a successful president of his own business, and money makes people more respected in Mormondom. He was taking a class in the life of Christ at the U of Utah, and asked if he could give a talk at Easter. The bishop announced this, and we all looked forward to hearing a talk about Christ at Easter, for a change.

His talk was wonderful, intellectual, filled with interesting factoids about Christ. Towards the end, he started talking about Jesus chasing the money-changers out of the temple, how He never build a church building, how his ministry was among the poor how Christ's Atonement was meant to save us all, and not just save the obedient Mormons. You know--all the discrepancies between Christ's church and Joseph Smith's church. This man had a way with words, and I wish I had a copy of his talk, but at the end, he said that he didn't believe in Joseph Smith, but he believed in Jesus Christ, and that He is the Son of God, and no so-called latter-day prophet could ever reach the pinnacle of Christ. His talk had me in tears, and he said that Christianity was not about the details, rules and hierarchies--it was all about Love. "For God so loved the world, that He gave his Only Begotten Son, that we will not perish, but have everlasting life." He said that it was simple, and this was what he believed.

Then he just left. He didn't say, "In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." He just stepped down from the podium, walked down the aisle, and went out the back door, and never came back.

Of course, his wife knew about this, and it was OK with her. She still goes to that ward to this day, and her husband has still never set foot in a Mormon church to this day. Half of their children left the cult, and half remain in it.

I'll never forget that talk! It helped influence me to leave and take my children with me, and we have been so much happier. A lot of other neighbor families have left, also.

You could really lead the way, and give your talk about integrity, and finish by saying that your integrity doesn't allow you to continue the charade of Mormonism, or something like that. But if you did that, your wife's little Mormon world would be turned upside down. Your safest bet is to just refuse to speak in church, and maybe refuse to attend meetings and refuse to pay tithing--but not give your wife a hard time for believing in Mormonism. That's what my husband did, and the children and I followed him out, about a year later.

Please return and report!

Great story, but "facts about Christ"? The things Christians call "facts" about Christ are actually anecdotes. I don't want to be a wet blanket but I can't let that slide.

this is highly unusual that they would ask someone who hasn't been to church in 4 years to talk in Sacrament. Your bishop is asking for it... Under the tense circumstances I think you should decline, it wouldn't be good for your relationship with your wife if you state something uncomfortable, which might be true.

Think this through carefully.

Yes, this is very dangerous to your relationship and marriage. She is the one you should be talking to about this. Many of your listeners will be angry with you. Are you really ready for the possible fallout?

You asked for advice. My advice would be to refuse unless you want to do it. If you want to do it, treat it as a totally secular opportunity to say what the hell you would like.

My advice:

Give the talk, but keep it positive and not specifically critical. State the Christian principles of integrity, etc., and let the hearers draw their own conclusions.

Thank you all for your advice. You are good people, which is why I have lurked on this bored for years. My wife and I have a tenuous relationship when it comes to the LDS church. I don't pay tithing, I don't go the church, I haven't set foot in a temple for years. She knows how I feel about the church. Here is the issue. I know IQ test are arbitrary, but I'm in the 130s, and in an engineering field. My wife knows I am smart, took a lot of time and research to come to my conclusions on the church and is dead frightened to hear anything I have to say about it, because she is afraid I am right. Talk about head in the sand, but it's an interesting psychological position to watch. Unfortunately, we don't talk religion...at all. Yes, it is a bur in our relationship, which is why I worry about talking.

As far as the other people, I'm inactive. Do you think I have a friend in the neighborhood or anyone talks to me? Their feeling are their own to worry about.

Anyway, great advice. Love you all.

Given your home situation, see no upside to giving the talk. It won't help your relationship with your wife. Let your wife figure this out on her own, she may or may not, but this talk in church, no matter what you put in your talk, is unlikely to have a positive result.

As to IQ points, I imagine a number of the members of the congregation can match or exceed yours. Religious faith and IQ seem to be unrelated. Some very smart people have some very implausible beliefs.

Give the talk. Members here the same dribble in every Sac talk. Give the real teachings of Christ not the Mormon teachings. Do not use the Bom or any LDS scripture. Just the bible and or other information on integrity and principles there of.

best of luck.

"My Bishop said he wanted a talk about integrity and principles and I was the first he thought of."

Sounds to me like your Bishop has your number.

Do yourself and your wife a favor.

Make like Nancy Reagan and Just Say No.

You could ask him if he has enough integrity to change his mind when overwhelming evidence proves that he is wrong. If not, then he and those he wants you speak to are prideful and stiffnecked...the opposite of integrity and principled.

That ought to get you off the hook.

Where is the after party being held? I know a bunch of us would love to attend! It's doubtful anyone from your ward would be there, so our laughter at your descriptions of what you were seeing on the faces in the audience as you spoke wouldn't offend anyone.

If ever there were a people so ripe for the descriptor, "You can't handle the Truth!", it is los mormones.



Any chance your wife and the bishop cooked up this little ploy? Is it a reactivation attempt? Does the bishop think this might force your hand and he can use it against you to 'save' your wife?

It's hard for me to figure that even a bishop from Vegas would really think a non-tithe paying inactive is the first person he thinks of when it comes to integrity. It would be great if it was, because it would mean he's heading for the exit, but ...

I think it's more likely that the bishop thinks that integrity includes keeping your baptism, priesthood and temple covenants etc., and hopes that preparing such a talk might bring you to repentance.

Danger, Will Robinson! I hear Kenny Loggins in the background, "Danger Zone".

If U let TSCC set the terms (subject, nature-substance) of 'your' talk, you're playing their game, & we all know who the 'winner' will be.

If they allow a talk about basics of Kindness, Honesty, effective communication rather than (their claimed) PH 'authority', that could add to ppl's lives.

I see where you're coming from...

But I wouldn't mind debating, on the against side, the concept of a bishop 'thinking'. At least in the sense of thinking ahead...

I see their job as being (or becoming) reactive, not proactive. I would postulate that there aren't enough hours in the day for a bishop (assuming we could agree on what an 'average bishop' had to do each day) to have the time to 'think ahead.' I see them as too burdened down with 'open cases' to have the time or energy to go pull a 'cold case' file to start working on.

I vote for a plot, not instigated by the bishop, but now having his cooperation. I say someone was hammering on him to work on the cold case file.

We can't actually know, for now, who is correct, so I do stipulate that you might be correct in this particular situation, but I would not give ground on my overall view.

I say this with all due respect, just in case you own or belong to a golf course where I could play for free. Amen.

I would ask the Bishop what he was thinking. Invite him over and position the seats so you can observe both him and your wife. Formulate open-ended questions for both.

All you seek is the truth of their positions and feelings on the matter. Having all three of you interacting will help you to remain authentic, while also being supportive of your wife, which sounds like your primary concern.

It's always possible that the Bishop wants to effect change from within. That, or he's a devious bastard. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find the truth, and escape with your marriage intact. Good luck, Mickey.

I was in a F&T meeting when I heard a talk from an elderly woman. While she was crying, she said "I hope I didn't waste most of my life." Instead of saying the church was false, she spent an insane amount of time saying that the church is true. A lot of people got up out of their seats and walked out of the chapel.


When I bore my testimony at another F&T meeting, I think people thought my testimony was so insane, that I had to of been brainwashed.

I left the church and I believe I made a great influence in people's lives.

Please record this and post to youtube! I'd love to hear it!

When you watch TV and a local car dealership commercial comes on and the spokesperson says, "Come on down today!"

Do you drop what you're doing and go down there even if you don't need a car?

Because I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and the bishop's request, honestly.

You've been out for 4 years. You don't owe him anything.

Hit the mute button and carry on with your day.

If the talk topic was "integrity and principles" and the day was father's day then I'd be tempted talk on the something like the following.

I'd define lying, and how specific the teachings are on lying.
I'd bring up lying for the lord, try and find a few quotes form the brethren.
I'd talk about cover ups of history are not showing integrity, so bringing up book of Mormon rock in the hat peep stone translation.
Lying about the actual Book of Abraham hasn't been a good example of integrity.

Might even see if you could get GBH and his less than accurate answers when he was doing his TV interviews. He was less than honest about the "As man once was" couplet.


Basically I'd bring up big examples where the church has deliberately covered things up in the past.

A talk about "Integrity" - especially on Father's Day - has absolutely incredible potential.

I think it would have to be done in such a way that it didn't have much to do with Mormonism, but get right down to the essence of what "integrity" means. It's a huge and important concept. Give non-Mo examples of people with tremendous integrity, (include Jesus if you wish), Gandhi, Mother Teresa - specifically, people who had convictions and acted on them, despite obstacles and opposition.

I realize that a job like this is potential dynamite, but remember that dynamite has a two-fold function: to blow stuff up, but also to clear the way for new things to be created.

You could turn this into something so inspirational that people would never forget, even though you would not specifically be promoting the Mormon cause.

GOOD LUCK!

Share with them the miracle of Moroni. He was not a short man, and hovered above the floor, according to Joseph Smith, about a foot. The small upper room in which slept the Smith children has a pitched roof, and so, Moroni was able to shrink his torso, much like many modern podiums do, when a speaker is too tall or short. If he didn't, then his head would have been above the roof, and it would be no wonder that he had to return multiple times to deliver the important but repeatedly-forgotten message.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrTcXIIQ0VVbv0ALPeJzbkF?ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-326&p=joseph+smith%27s+home+in+palmyra%2C+ny%2C+images&fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top&norw=1

I have been to the place, and the first thought I (as a TBM) had was...Moroni must have been a midget!

I've been to that place also. I was thinking the same thing!

How in the heck could a full grown large man stand up in that room, never mind being a foot or two off of the floor. It's basically an attic room that even people like me (5'4") feel a bit cramped.

Not only that, I couldn't figure out how that room could be lit up like day light (before electricity) and have two guys carrying on a conversation, and his brothers never saw a thing!

Every angle, of the story of mormonism from beginning to end has huge problems that don't fit. Nothing fits. Nothing comes together. For almost 200 years there have been people trying to make the story of mormonism look sane. So far, NO GO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2015 01:10AM by madalice.

& you are the husband. ?

and some one asked you, the husband, to come to a church you havent attended in four years? on, your specal day?
say, what? & you are even considering it? where are you from

fathers day is for fathers to do what they want, in bed or camping or fishing or plan a desisgned trip or stadium base ball
or weekend live concert

not for you to not enjoy yourself. who is this guy
serting you up stranding you on fathers day weekend?
you should be sulking instead.

you deserve lots of things right now. you deserve to complain and someone should feel bad about it and be busy, get busy planning your fun weekend. they should, sweat over it, apologize profusely and beg for your forgiveness and approval.

the nerve.

some people havent the slightest cultural hint of celebrating.
give a talk, go back to church, and give them all a talk, on
your own day?

bishop=misery loves company especially if youre going fishing or to Alaska or visiting a big city sporting event again for fathers day - weekend. you could invite him.

I'd be like, "Dude, are you serious? I haven't been to church in 4 years. I don't go to church, so why would I come there just to give a talk?"

They'll do anything just to get you into the building, where they're convinced that you won't be able to imagine how you ever left and will stay.

I think the bishop is intentionally trying to cause contention in your marriage.

If you can give a talk that rattles him and everyone except your wife, go for it.

Otherwise, don't give his request the time of day. Don't let the bishop inject discomfort and contention into your relationship. He's not worth it, and the mormon church isn't worth sacrificing your marriage, finances, and future. You've already been through enough without giving them any ammunition.

If you want to give a talk, discuss the talk with your wife. Get her input. This may give her an opportunity to talk about things she normally wouldn't talk about.

Again, thank you. Let me give you a little more history with my, and I say this very loosely, bishop as I don't own him. :-). We had a good two hour talk several months ago. He was respectful to come to my house as there is no way I will adhere to a summons to an official of the church's office. I explained to him how I was raised.

Essentially, I was raised in a doomsday cult that used Mormonism as its foundation of belief. My father had a dream when my grandfather died, so his father, when I was roughly 5-6 years old. The dream "told" my father that the family ranch in Bern Idaho was an old Jerdite complex with hidden records much like the BoM. We, those who believed and were mostly family, thought we were ultra special. Much like how Mormons think they are more "special" and elite than everyone else, my family took that to a whole new level. You see, we were the chosen ones to find this vast Jaradite treasure and build these Havens of protection to help the righteous survive the imminent Second Coming of Jesus. Needless to say, I lived with that fear since age 7. I never thought I would go to college, get married, or even have kids.

This belief system escalated into my father "channeling" the likes of Elijah himself. We would setup seances with crystals using the Star of David as a focal point. This was the energy "configuration" to gain the power needed to find this great treasure and not only that, but propel ourselves into being transfigured as the Three Nephites.

This is just the tip of the ice burg and I can write chapters about growing up. I blatantly told my bishop how I was raised. I love my father, only because he did teach me some good principles through all the BS that I adhere to today. He was the one most instrumental in helping me see through the Mormon lies, because he was doing and making similar claims as Joseph Smith. Once I realized my father was doing the same as Joseph (including polygamy) I saw the parallels and everything became clear to me.

My bishop has said to me he believes if the ward population were not in Utah, most would not even attend church. He has the same contempt as I do over the "Jack" Mormons that we have in the area. I don't think he wants to reactivate me, he just honestly wants to make an impact to people's lives.

I struggle, because I am not a great person. I'm honored that he thinks I have such integrity, but I'm just like everybody else just trying to do the best I can with the knowledge that I have. I am no better than even my Mormon "friends". I'm just another imperfect human being just trudging along like anybody else. I do believe in integrity and if I were to give a talk it would be centered on how I was raised and how me and my father do not have a close relationship because he is so fixated on finding his precious Jaredites that he has completely missed the importance of the relationships he is not developing. He will miss baptism and confirmations, birthday parties etc. to try and find his precious golden records that will "prove" the BoM true. My talk will focus on the principles of love and relationships as that's, what I feel, is one of the most important things you can do down here. It is the only thing that can bring true joy. My bishop has heard my story and mentioned that as the "inspiration" for the topic, so he may be wanting a quick out too, hehe.

I still carry a lot of emotional scars from living in constant fear from the age of 7. I remember crying myself to sleep at nights and having nightmares of wars and the Second Coming. If I were to give the talk, I would walk a very fine line of trying to show the parallels of my father's belief system and how destructive that was to my life and draw the correlation to Mormonism in a way for the intelligent ones to see it. My intent is not to go on a full attack on the church. I don't care to do that; however, I do care about people and would hope to help them "see" things in a better light.

I hope you talk about your dad. Its a great parallel to the mainstream Mormon church. You can teach some great lessons to the members of this ward without directly attacking the church because you are using your dad's crazy religion instead. However, it can apply to mainstream Mormonism just as well.

You can explain how your dad was too busy and focused on all these superficial religious rites but lost focus of the REAL and important things like family, relationships and community.

One thing I noticed about in the closet non-believers giving talks and lessons is that the members almost always like those talk more than the standard pablum they hear every week. Its the stuff they ACTUALLY want to hear. And it ACTUALLY makes them think.

I just re-read my topic. It's 4 YEARS not hrs of inactivity. Sorry for the confusion there. "Wow, 4 hrs? That must have been rough on you." HEHE

So the bishop cannot find one active Mormon male in the ward who has enough integrity and principles to give a talk on those subjects.

Perhaps you might want to point that out to him - it might start him wondering WHY his faith does not produce people with integrity and principles.

Seems to me your duty is to yourself and to the relationship with your wife.

You have no such requirement when it comes to the church.

If you value the marriage as it is today then I would politely decline.

Nothing at all is to be gained and much is to be put at risk.

You cannot control what simple thing it may be that harmed your spouse even though done in innocence and assumed honesty.

Decline.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2015 10:53AM by AmIDarkNow?.