Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 27, 2015 02:30AM

LDS Apostle Admits Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon Through a Rock in Hat

In the LDS Church's official organ, the "Ensign" magazine, a General Conference sermon by Mormon Apostle Russell M. Nelson is published, in which Nelson openly acknowledges--and invokes as true--the Book of Mormon rock-in-the-hat translation tale, as follows:

Nelson: "The details of this miraculous method of translation [of the Book of Mormon] are still not fully known. Yet, WE DO HAVE A FEW PRECIOUS INSIGHTS. David Whitmer wrote:

“'JOSEPH SMITH WOULD PUT THE SEER STONE INTO A HAT, AND PUT HIS FACE IN THE HAT, DRAWING IT CLOSELY AROUND HIS FACE TO EXCLUDE THE LIGHT; AND IN THE DARKNESS THE SPIRITUAL LIGHT WOULD SHINE. A PIECE OF SOMETHING RESEMBLING PARCHMENT WOULD APPEAR, AND ON THAT APPEARED THE WRITING. ONE CHARACATER AT A TIME WOULD APPEAR, AND UNDER IT WAS THE INTERREPTATION IN ENGLISH. BROTHER JOSEPH WOULD READ OFF THE ENLGLISH TO OLIVER COWDERY, WHO WAS HIS PRINCIPAL SCRIBE, AND WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN DOWN AND REPEATED TO BROTHER JOSEPH TO SEE IF IT WAS CORRECT, THEN IT WOULD DISAPPEAR, AND ANOTHER CHARACTER AND INTERPRETATION WOULD APPEAR. THUS, THE BOOK OF MORMON WAS TRANSLATED BY THE GIFT AND POWER OF GOD, AND NOT BY ANY POWER OF MAN.' (David Whitmer, 'An Address to All Believers in Christ,' Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12)"

("'A Treasured Testament,' by Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles," published in "Ensign" magazine, July 1993, emphasis added, at: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng)


Hats off to these goofs. It seems that the Mormon God's "prophets. seers and revelators" can't get on the same fool's-gold page when it comes to the basic question of how Joseph Smith "translated" the Book of Mormon gold plates. Next thing you know, we'll be finding out that there are multiple, inconsistent versions of what happened in the "First Vision."

Say it ain't so, Joe! In the meantime, that apostate apostle Nelson has got to go!
_____


Additional Sources::

1. Oliver Cowdery:

“[I] had seasons of skepticism, in which I seriously wonder whether the prophet and I were men in our sober senses when we would be translating from the plates through the ‘Urim and Thummim’ and the plates would not be in sight at all.”

(Cowdery, "Latter-day Saint Messenger and Advocate," October 1834)


2. Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery:

“He [Joseph Smith] would place the director in his hat, and then place his face in his hat, so as to exclude the light.”

(Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery, affidavit, 15 February 1870, in William E. McLellin. "To“My Dear Friends")


3. Emma Smith:

“Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”

(Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma S. Pilgrim, 27 March 1876, RLDS library archives, see also Vogel, "Early Mormon Documents," vol. 1, p. 532)


4. George Q. Cannon:

“One of Joseph’s aidEs in searching out the truths of the [Book of Mormon] was a peculiar pebble or rock which he called a seer stone, and which was sometimes used by him in lieu of the Urim and Thummim.”

(Cannon, "Life of Joseph Smith," p. 56)


5. Hiel Lewis:

“[Joseph Smith] translated the Book of Mormon by means of the same peep stone, and under the same inspiration that directed his enchantments . . . .”

(Hiel Lewis, “Review of Mormonism: Rejoinder to Elder Cadwell,” in "Amboy Journal," Amboy IL, 4 June, 1879)


6. William W. Blair:

“The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph’s placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating, word after word, while the scribe – Emma, John Whitmer, O[liver]. Cowdery, or some other, wrote it down.”

(Blair, letter to “Editors, Herald,” 22 May 1879, in 'Saints’ Herald," vOL. 26, 15 June 1879, pp. 190-91)


7. William Stafford:

“Joseph [Smith] Jr., could see, by placing a stone of singular appearance in his hat, in such a manner as to exclude all light; at which time they pretended he could see all things within and under the earth – that he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates – that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress.”

(Stafford, neighbor of the Smith family, quoted in "Mormonism Unveiled," by E.D. Howe, 1834)


8. "The Sun" (Philadelphia PA):

“So, in order to convince Harris that he could read from the plates, Jo deposits them [the seer stones] in his hat, applies the spectacles, and refers Harris to a chapter in the Bible which he had learned by rote; and which he read from the plates, with surprising accuracy; and what astonished Harris most, was, that Jo should omit all the words in the Bible that were printed in Italic. And, if Harris attempted to correct Jo, he persisted that the plates were right, and the Bible was wrong. . . . Harris commenced transcribing, as Jo dictated; and to avoid mistakes, Jo required his amanuensis to read what he had written; and nothing was allowed to pass, until Jo pronounced it correct.”

(“Mormonites,” in "The Sun," Philadelphia PA, 18 August 1831, original in Library of Congress)


9. Richard L. Anderson:

“Thus it should pose no religious difficulty that Joseph’s seer stone of his youth was later applied to the higher use of inspired translation of the Book of Mormon.”

(Anderson, “The Mature Joseph Smith and Treasure Searching,” p. 537)


10. Richard Van Wagoner and Steven Walker:

“The plates could not have been used directly in the translation process. The Prophet, his face in a hat to exclude exterior light, would have been unable to view the plates directly even if they had been present during transcription. A mental picture of the young Joseph, face buried in a hat, gazing into a seer stone, plates out of sight, has not been a generally held view since the early days of the Church. The view raises some difficult questions. Why, for example, was such great care taken to preserve the plates for thousands of years if they were not to be used directly in the translation process?”

(Van Wagoner and Walker, “Joseph Smith: ‘The Gift of Seeing,’” in "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought," vol. 15, Summer 1982, p. 53)


Damn the all to hell.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2015 03:20AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ipseego2 ( )
Date: April 27, 2015 06:57AM

How could he breathe With his face in the hat?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: April 27, 2015 08:33AM

"How could he breathe With his face in the hat?"

By the power of the Holy Ghost. :-)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ConcernedCitizen ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 05:32PM

..."by the power of hypoxemia-induced hallucinations."...the more likely reason.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 05, 2018 11:26PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 04:15PM

Out on the street, this used to be called "huffing."

Who knows what else was in that hat? Maybe some well-aged skunk glands.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: April 27, 2015 07:20AM

I remember being quite shocked when I read that article a few years back. So many times while researching the real truth, I found myself saying, "Why didn't they tell us that?"

I wonder why I don't recall this talk and this article. It's so weird how you just sort of bury things that don't jive with your ideas about the LDS Gospel while you're still a Mormon.

An Apostle could have stood up and announced in Conference that the Church wasn't actually true and I probably wouldn't have heard that either.

This is why one can get so frustrated when trying to get the truth through to a Mormon. They literally have 'put on the armour of God' and they become impervious to any information which doesn't mesh with their ideas about the Church, even if it comes from an Apostle.

Their hearing becomes selective. Their brain weeds out anything which doesn't feel right to them. It's frustrating. But I've said it before - a person literally will not hear truthful information like this until they are mentally ready to hear it. Once I was ready, I noticed this information and was shocked by it. It's like the scales fall from your eyes and suddenly the information which was there all along becomes visible for the first time.

It's a very strange phenomenon, but I know from personal experience that this is the case.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: brandywine ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 07:44PM

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember being quite shocked when I read that
> article a few years back. So many times while
> researching the real truth, I found myself saying,
> "Why didn't they tell us that?"
>
> ^^^That was my same reaction every time I learned something new.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2015 07:44PM by brandywine.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pamelapotrey ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 04:33PM

How did Joseph cram the gold plates into the hat so he could put the seer stone & his face into the hat to see ???

(Yea , yea , yea.......this shows how 'retarded' I am. But please remember that 44 yrs plus ago in seminary the church had pictures of Joseph looking thru the seer stone right onto the plates , with a teeny lamp burning & a curtain between him & Oliver Cowdrey. Anymore.........I don't know what the He!! to believe !!! )

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 08:14PM

Silly- they weren't dinner plates, they were small salad plates.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pamelapotrey ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 02:37AM

StillAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Silly- they weren't dinner plates, they were small
> salad plates.

Thank you , stillanon............I needed this chuckle !

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 05, 2018 11:28PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2018 11:37PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: pamelapotrey ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 02:39AM

Thank you !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2015 02:40AM by momto15kids.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: AlmostGone1 ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 07:04PM

I think that this line tells the entire story.

If we don't know after 175 years how it happened then it must not have happened the way they said it did.

"The details of this miraculous method of translation [of the Book of Mormon] are still not fully known"

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: May 05, 2018 11:24PM

as used by Mormons.

I am, by profession, a certified bilingual - I translate written material or conversation. It took YEARS to reach this level of linguistic proficiency. People who grow up bilingual often don't have the ability to handle written material, because just speaking it does not mean that you can write and spell it.

Besides, if you are going to translate something, it has to be a "real" language to begin with.

I am much more inclined to believe a poster (I forget whom - it has been years) who summed up JS' creative method by saying that he had (paraphrasing) pulled it out of his nether orifice.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 08:03PM

Three years ago the head in the hat was anti-Mormon lies to 99% of Mormons and an excommunicable offense if that was broadcast by any LDS 0person trying to tell that to the flock.


So here's the rub.

What was impossible to believe by the flock because it was deemed OUTRAGEOUS ANTI-MORMON NONSENSE, and was a reason to shun, ostracize, priesthood interviews for worthiness, dis-fellowship, removed from the house of your youth, removed from family wills, divorced, children turned against you,

is now Mormon truth.

The attitude of the flock now.

"What, it's not anti-Mormon lies? Ok. No biggie. You Still shouda stuck with the church but with your lack of faith and all."

There will be little to no reparations.

What was reprehensible, impossible and outrageous to believe is now real.

If that is not one big mind f..k then the definition of mind f...k needs to change.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cokeisoknow ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 08:04PM

I have the actual copy of the july 93' Ensign

with the full article.

I keep it on my Postum table for the Home teachers to see.

I might get some cred now

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: maeve ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 08:46PM

Why couldn't Joe have put his head in the hat without the rock? If he didn't need the gold plates there in front of him, why would he need a rock?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: michaelc1945 ( )
Date: August 04, 2015 08:55PM

Magic!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Delila ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 01:01AM

Was it translation or was it transcription?
Joe merely copied the English words he saw on the rock.
Supposedly. That's not "translating".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 01:40AM

To hell with the "translating" bit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2015 01:41AM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Delila ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 03:34PM

To hell with the "translation" bit.

Yep!
That was my point.
Tell that to Russ Nelson...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 05, 2018 10:12PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2018 10:44PM by steve benson.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Texas Sue ( )
Date: August 05, 2015 03:29PM

So do seer stones have a reception range then? If he could translate without the plates in the room, why couldn't he translate with the plates in the ground? That old-fashioned God needs to upgrade those seer stones!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: May 05, 2018 11:31PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **        **        **  **    **  ******** 
 **   **         **        **  ***   **     **    
 **  **          **        **  ****  **     **    
 *****           **        **  ** ** **     **    
 **  **    **    **  **    **  **  ****     **    
 **   **   **    **  **    **  **   ***     **    
 **    **   ******    ******   **    **     **