This is a question that's really been bugging me lately. Its a one of the justifications Mormons often give for why they practiced polygamy...you know, because "all these poor widows needed husbands."

I think the number of Mormons who died from "persecution" is greatly inflated in many people's minds. Has ANY professional historian ever given an actual number? Surely we can get a decent estimate? I feel like maybe there were between 15 and 50 Mormons who died? This does NOT include self inflicted deaths like the handcart folks who died crossing the plains because of stupid Brigham Young.

Any historians out there how can give a good estimate? Maybe a breakdown per incident (Haun's Mill, etc)? It can't be that many. Especially enough to justify polygamy (considering there were THOUSANDS of Mormons at the time).

I was talking to an ex-Mormon friend of mine and he was surprised when I said "not that many Mormon men died due to persecution." I said maybe 15-50 men died.

I don't have an answer, but don't forget to factor in all the pioneers who forfeited their lives rather than deny Jesus and the church...

From the stories told, there must have been a ton of them, who when offered freedom for denouncing the church and its prophets, instead chose the penalty offered, death. And you know that we all thought they were knucking futz! Even as kids we knew the value of statements uttered while your fingers were crossed!

I can't remember where I read it, but it seems like I read that a total of 60 Mormons died at the hands of mobs.

I have heard that census records show that in Utah during frontier days, it had the same problem as the rest of the West -- not enough women to go around. The stereotype is that strong young men went west to find adventure and make their fortunes. (The women tended to stay home in the civilized East.) So the excuse for Mormon polygamy that there was not enough men to go around is a bunch of nonsense. If Mormons wanted to have plural marriage to address the problem of people having no one to marry, then men would have only have been allowed a single wife, but women would have been allowed two or three husbands at the same time.

I found a partial answer from General Authority/Historian/Apostate B.H. Roberts:

http://www.mrm.org/persecution-and-polygamy

Speaking in general conference in October 1907, Mormon historian and Seventy B.H. Roberts said, “First, let me tell you the net results of the persecution of the Latter-day Saints in Missouri, so far as they can be told in a summary: There were killed outright of men, women and children, so far as careful estimates can be made, more than fifty souls. There were as many more wounded and beaten. How many perished by slow death, suffering untold agonies, by reason of exposure and cruelties, no one knows, nor can it be computed" (Conference Reports, October 1907, pp. 118-119).

Some other interesting links:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,512657,512657

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_widows.htm

"There were killed outright of men, women and children, so far as careful estimates can be made, more than fifty souls."

The total number of Mormons killed by non-Mormons during the 19th century might have been around 50, but not all of those were due to "religious persecution." The most noted incident, the Haun's Mill massacre, in which 17 Mormons were killed, wasn't an act of religious persecution, but rather because of the land war between the Mormons and non-Mormons---a war for which the Mormons were 100% responsible.

The other most notable murders of Mormons were Joseph and Hyrum Smith and Parley P. Pratt---but those weren't the product of religious persecution either. The actual number of Mormons killed for their religious beliefs is probably just a handful.

There was the 17 at Haun's Mill, Joseph & Hyrum (2), Parley P. Pratt (1),

As far as I can tell that's it. There many Laws that caused some to be imprisoned (AZ roundup Edmunds Act, etc...), but that wasn't persecution. There was a lot of illness caused by lack of food, sanitary conditions, etc... but all of that was self persecution.

There were 3 missionary deaths (Joseph Standing, John H. Gibbs, and William S. Berry, all missionaries in the Southern States mission) because of polygamy, that have been stretched into Mormon folklore as hundreds.

"There were 3 missionary deaths (Joseph Standing, John H. Gibbs, and William S. Berry, all missionaries in the Southern States mission) because of polygamy, that have been stretched into Mormon folklore as hundreds."

Since polygamy was illegal, it could be argued that those missionaries were killed because they were advocating an illegal and socially unwelcome marriage system---sorta like Parley P. Pratt was murdered because he plural married another man's wife.

In order to justify the establishment of polygamy, due to a lack of good men and the number of widows, your time frame should be narrowed to pre-polygamy days. Since there were no deaths from strife or persecutions in Nauvoo, that pretty much limits this to the Missouri wars.

Mormons would like to claim that these wars were persecutions, but the facts show otherwise. These battles in Missouri were engaged in willingly by Mormon militia and state militia. They were caused by the crimes of both Missouri non-Mormon citizens, and by the crimes of Mormons. LDS leaders such as Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon were engaged in inflaming the cries of war from the outset of conflicts.

That aside, the number of married Mormon men killed was not great. Certainly not great enough to require the institution of polygamy in order to care for their poor widows. Joseph and the church certainly had resources sufficient to care for a dozen or so widows. And there were always new gentlemen arriving in Nauvoo willing to marry an eligible widow.

Mormons lie.

Dydimus, do you know how many married men were killed at Haun's Mill?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2015 06:34PM by hello.

There were a few other deaths before Haun's Mill also. https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-sixteen-missouri-persecutions-and-expulsion?lang=eng&query=hang+27s+mill+story

All they ever put out is " including the killing of 17 men and boys and the wounding of 15 others."
https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-insights-and-interpretations-of-hawns-mill-massacre?lang=eng&query=hang+27s+mill+story

Wikipedia gives the list of victims and age: By the end of the massacre at least seventeen Mormons were dead: Hiram Abbott, Elias Benner, John Byers, Alexander Campbell, Simon Cox, Josiah Fuller, Austin Hammer, John Lee, Benjamin Lewis, Thomas McBride (78), Charley Merrick (9), Levi Merrick, William Napier, George S. Richards, Sardius Smith (10), Warren Smith (44), and John York. Thirteen more had been injured, including a woman and nine-year-old child. A non-Mormon sympathizer was also killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun%27s_Mill_massacre

And I agree. If you read the corporations own essay on it (The Missouri Persecutions); you'll see that it was during a declaration of war. This where J.S. said he was the next Mohammed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2015 07:00PM by dydimus.

So, even being liberal in IDing the 13 adult men killed as of marriage age and likely married (excluding the elderly and child), we are looking at 13 possible widows. And some of the men may have been single, reducing that number further.

Caring for these widows? Not a good reason to institute a revolutionary, universally hated practice that doesn't work, had to be kept secret with grave oaths, and led directly to the death of the prophets.

If polygamy is the best Mormon Jesus could come up with for the "widow problem", then he is not very bright.

"Caring for these widows? Not a good reason to institute a revolutionary, universally hated practice that doesn't work, had to be kept secret with grave oaths, and led directly to the death of the prophets."

The idea that polygamy was instituted to care for widows was concocted sometime after Joseph Smith's death. I haven't been able to pinpoint its origin, but I suspect it may have started with the fact that some of Joseph Smith's plural wives were assigned to Brigham Young, HC Kimball, and other high-ranking leaders. BH Roberts, in the "History of the Church," and the 1940s-70s seminary textbook "The Restored Church," by William Berrett, repeated the false assertion.

Because church leaders maintained the "caring for widows" lie for more than 100 years, that's why they whitewashed details of Joseph Smith's plural relationships until recently. Duh, anybody with half a brain can deduce that if Smith practiced polygamy with 30+ women before his 1844 death, then the "polygamy was practiced to care for the widows and children of men who died from persecution or while crossing the plains" argument doesn't fly.

I remember back in the day...
Pre-internet days it was generally believed that JS wives were all sealed to him after the pioneers got to the valley from a pool of old maids and young girls who never had a chance to marry and died. All this business about Fanny Alger were anti lies by satan.

See, that's part of the downright lying and omission of true history. In 1892 during the Temple Lot case, Wilford Woodruff had 7 of Joseph Smith's "widows" go forward to testify of their marriages to J.S. And under oath and in their Victorian way, they testified to the marriages and to having sex with Joseph Smith.

randyj Wrote:
> The idea that polygamy was instituted to care for
> widows was concocted sometime after Joseph Smith's
> death. I haven't been able to pinpoint its
> origin, but I suspect it may have started with the
> fact that some of Joseph Smith's plural wives were
> assigned to Brigham Young, HC Kimball, and other
> high-ranking leaders. BH Roberts, in the "History
> of the Church," and the 1940s-70s seminary
> textbook "The Restored Church," by William
> Berrett, repeated the false assertion.
>
> Because church leaders maintained the "caring for
> widows" lie for more than 100 years, that's why
> they whitewashed details of Joseph Smith's plural
> relationships until recently. Duh, anybody with
> half a brain can deduce that if Smith practiced
> polygamy with 30+ women before his 1844 death,
> then the "polygamy was practiced to care for the
> widows and children of men who died from
> persecution or while crossing the plains" argument
> doesn't fly.

Makes perfect sense, Randy, thanks for this. I do remember this lie from Berrett in 1970, I didn't buy it but it put me off further inquiry for a while, which is typical LDS tactics.

I'm a descendant of Thomas McBride, and the Haun's Mill massacre was in our family lore. It was said that he died pleading for his life. We talked about his martyrdom more than Smith's death. Gory details included his hands and fingers getting sliced, along with his being shot after surrendering. Three of his granddaughters married my great grandfather, Emanuel Bagley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2015 07:41PM by donbagley.

Hey Don!
We're related. Thomas McBride's daughter Mary married Cornelius Biddlecome, I am descended from there...
Small little Mormon world...

...but I didn't read about any Mormons killed because of their religious beliefs. The only death the article cited was of a pregnant woman who died from exposure after being driven out of her house. And since that incident was during a land war, it can't be attributed to religious persecution---unless one wanted to argue that the Mormons' illegal attempts to take over all of western Missouri and drive the existing settlers out was part of their religious beliefs.

Less than died from the greediness of their own leaders in making them come in handcarts. From these lists, about 240-250 died on the way in the handcart companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_handcart_pioneers

Polygamy wasn't from a lack of men- all census records show more men than women in Utah. It was started because Joe got caught by Emma, and needed an excuse for it.

My first instinct is to say that no one died from persecution

since we only get our numbers from the church and why would we

trust them? They want to make it look like religious

persecution which in their minds would some how make the

church look true. I'm not buying it.

Is there anyway to get numbers that we can actually believe

which would have to be from a source other than the mormons ?

all of them

Mountain Meadows had 120 non-Mormons killed by Mormons in 1
day. Who are persecuting and who are the persecuted?

Mormons started in northwestern New York. They couldn't get
along with their neighbors so moved to Ohio. They went to
Missouri and couldn't get along with their neighbors there.
They couldn't get along with each other in Ohio so they left and
went to Illinois, where they couldn't get along with their
neighbors.

So they moved to Utah where they wouldn't have any neighbors.
Then a group of "neighbors" came passing through on the way to
California and the Mormons killed them.

Who is persecuting who?

"Its a one of the justifications Mormons often give for why they practiced polygamy...you know, because "all these poor widows needed husbands.""

That excuse doesn't explain why Joseph Smith sent Orson Hyde to Jerusalem to dedicate the Holy Land and then screwed his wife while Orson was away doing "the Lord's work".

MMM + handcart deaths; far more than even the wildest LDS claims of people ('men') being killed for religious persecution!

weren't some of the ill-fated Donner party also lds?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2015 10:10PM by GNPE.

To my knowledge, no, none of the party were LDS. The Donner group were traveling with a larger group that eventually made it safely to the Sacramento valley, but due to some illness, a group of 75 decided to stay on in Laramie (actually, Ft. Bridger, which a couple of my ancestors helped to construct in 1844. Several forts and trading posts were called Laramie.) for a time, and got a late start towards California. They also decided to try to follow the so-called Hastings Cutoff, which promised to be shorter than the usual trail. They almost made it out of trouble when they arrived in the Truckee area late in the season, but as there was an empty cabin at Donner Lake, they decided to stay the night instead of pushing on. That night, it snowed heavily, and they missed their window for wagon travel out of the mountains.

One of my ancestors, who was a young mountain men who had made it to NorCal in 1842, was part of the rescue party, sadly arriving too late to save the folks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2015 01:47AM by hello.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1001508

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,954158



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2015 03:38AM by steve benson.

Hundreds, even thousands. They were lied to, plundered, robbed, starved, and run into the ground, some raped. Dying from sickness, exposure, and exhaustion, all done in the name of god, by the most abusive anti MORmONS that there were -the predatory MORmON leadership.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1car5aCGE6E

I've always thought that the "poor widow" reasoning was such a LAME excuse for polygamy. I mean, even if there WAS a need for the women to be cared for, can't a woman be cared for through CHARITY? Why would she have to be married off to someone in order to receive assistance?

And then I think of young Helen Mar Kimball, who was living very comfortably at home with her two parents. What need did she have to marry Joseph Smith? None! She didn't need or WANT to marry him, but only did so because her father urged her to do it. There was NO reason to think that she would have any difficulty obtaining a husband of her choosing later on.

In the Book of Acts - Bible - the early church in Jerusalem appointed the first Deacons to look after the widows, especially the Greek widows who were feeling neglected. No need for men to have multiple wives. Indeed, anyone with more than one wife was excluded from church offices. JS turned the whole thing upside down.

No one can tell how many LGBT people have been persecuted to death. No one can tell how many "wayward" youth have been persecuted to the point that suicide seems their only option. No one knows how many mentally ill have been ignored, received poor advice from lay leaders of the church. No one knows how many people have taken their own life because they felt a blood oath was necessary because they were told it was their fault they were raped, molested, incest victims...

So the number of Mormons who have died from persecution (usually persecuted by fellow Mormons) can't be counted; but we can take stats and stories and they range from hundreds to thousands.

Mormons are sooooo persecuted. No they are not. They feel that anyone who doesn't agree with them is persecuting them.

An ancestor, "the hairlip" Ira Glaze is the one who shot the kids at Hauns Mill and when asked why said "nits make lice".

Interesting accounts of a number of run-ins with mormons in the old family history records. A number of them kept diaries at the time.

And no, none of them will ever have a chance to be donated to Mormon Inc.

not nearly as many as brigham young killed in his lies to get them to Utah.