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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 07:56PM

. . . because they make more money than Black men do.

At least that's the premise.
_____


--Under the subject line, "There is no similarity, despite decades of trying make it seem as there is," a reader wrote me:

"I understand your thought behind your recent political cartoon . . . showing two gay white men sitting next to three black men not receiving service at a food diner.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1549924


"However the effort by the gay movement trying to align with the black struggle for freedom and liberty is unjust. Given the hundreds or years of Civil Rights struggle by black Americans escaping slavery and Jim Crow apartheid facing horrific terrorism and oppression; the gay cause is paltry in comparison.

"Somehow two white men living together combining higher incomes and having access to financial services, jobs, and housing options that are much more difficult for people of color and low income whites to acquire; does not bring about sympathy. . . .

"I believe this cartoon is ill-conceived and done in bad taste. Will my words change your opinion, perhaps not, but like your cartoon if my works instill forward thinking; we've both succeeded in presenting ideas in a society striving to be better."


--Personally, I'm of the view that the reader is clueless, and told him so, as follows:

"You are clueless.".


--The reader wrote back:

"Your response confirms your level of ignorance. Perhaps later in age you will mature to accepting a higher level of wisdom."


--My reply:

"Do you have an appreciable knowledge when it comes to the history of prejudice and hate against gays . . .?

"Hitler used to gas them, pink [triangles] and all."
_____


Feel free to weigh in. It would be particularly interesting to hear from gay posters here, White and Black.

**********


(P.S.--Sorry about the choppy text segment repeats. We've been caught in a period of apparent board software snafus, with Admin saying they're trying to run down the problem).



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 01:31PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 08:04PM

So I guess this person doesn't know things like the story of Alan Turing...who despite being one of the most brilliant people to ever live, and contributing greatly to the allies winning WWII, was put in jail for being gay, and driven to suicide, huh?

No, gay people have never suffered from discrimination. Uh-uh.

Putz.

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Posted by: nonsequiter ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 08:08PM

Because gay people's struggles dont go back hundreds of years? right...

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 07:28AM

Do you know where the term f-got comes from?

It refers to the kindling they used to burn us at the stake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 07:29AM by axeldc.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 09:19AM

I also am a gay man; and this is probably urban legend. Although I don't usually like quoting Wikipedia; on this one it appears they have the correct references/research on the historical phrase.
Etymology

The American slang term is first recorded in 1914, the shortened form fag shortly after, in 1921.[8] Its immediate origin is unclear, but it is based on the word for "bundle of sticks", ultimately derived, via Old French, Italian and Vulgar Latin, from Latin fascis.[8][9]

The word @#$%& has been used in English since the late 16th century as an abusive term for women, particularly old women,[9] and reference to homosexuality may derive from this,[8][10] as female terms are often used with reference to homosexual or effeminate men (cf. nancy, sissy, queen). The application of the term to old women is possibly a shortening of the term "@#$%&-gatherer", applied in the 19th century to people, especially older widows, who made a meagre living by gathering and selling firewood.[10] It may also derive from the sense of "something awkward to be carried" (compare the use of the word baggage as a pejorative term for old people in general).[8]

An alternative possibility is that the word is connected with the practice of fagging in British private schools, in which younger boys performed (potentially sexual) duties for older boys, although the word @#$%& was never used in this context, only fag. There is a reference to the word @#$%& being used in 17th century Britain to refer to a "man hired into military service simply to fill out the ranks at muster", but there is no known connection with the word's modern pejorative usage.[8]

The Yiddish word faygele, lit. "little bird", has been claimed by some to be related to the American usage. The similarity between the two words makes it possible that it might at least have had a reinforcing effect.[8][10]

There used to be an urban legend, called an "oft-reprinted assertion" by Douglas Harper, that the modern slang meaning developed from the standard meaning of @#$%& as "bundle of sticks for burning" with regard to burning at the stake. This is unsubstantiated; the emergence of the slang term in 20th-century American English is unrelated to historical death penalties for homosexuality.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)

So it looks like the term was associated with gay men in the early 20th century, but before it was for old women who used to gather @#$%& for fires. "@#$%&" was an American term that went back to the U.K.; because @#$%& in England is a meatball. Which, when I served my mission in England there was a huge billboard for a frozen version of these meatballs that used the phrase, "Have you tried a @#$%& today?"

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 08:11PM

Ok tell me something... anyone out there.... does being a

racist homophobe automatically indicate that a person

has a lower IQ than my toaster over? Its that what it's all

about?

Do everyone's rights as human beings mean nothing to these

Dim Wits? Or are they just acting stupid ?

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Posted by: Ex-Sister Sinful Shoulders ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 08:29PM

Assuming they know exactly what your premise is... exasperating.

Mormons, assuming you were offended, sinned, or... laziness, that must be it!

Discrimination can't possibly be equated with other types of discrimination, ever! =(

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Posted by: Ether ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 09:11PM

Steve, I guess you should have thrown in a Rabbi, a Muslim and a couple of Mormon missionaries. Then maybe, they'd get it!

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 31, 2015 11:35PM

Ether Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve, I guess you should have thrown in a Rabbi,
> a Muslim and a couple of Mormon missionaries. Then
> maybe, they'd get it!

Isn't that a joke?
A Rabbi, a Muslim, and two mormon missionaries walk into a bar...

:)

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Posted by: lastofthewine ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 12:26AM

When was the last time you ever saw TWO Indians? You ain't never seen a bunch of Indians just chillin' at Red Lobster. -Chris Rock

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Posted by: bakagayjin ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 03:17AM

As I gay man, I can admit that there is a slight difference between the two. The difference is that we can hide the fact that we are gay if we really need to/want to (for the most part). There is no difference in the treatment, just a different timeline of discrimination, and less visibility.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 08:50AM

Blacks may face greater economic obstacles, but blacks are not picked on by their own families and communities. Being a gay Mormon is special hell, as your own parents can condemn you and even throw you out.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 07:20AM

Turning blacks and gays against each other is just a form of divide and conquer. No civil rights movement has been identical, but they are all follow similar paths. Sure, many blacks are antigay because of their religious beliefs, but many, like Coretta Scott King, see that equality is a human value, not a racially or sexually based one.

White gay men have been economically advantaged because of our families. However, few black people are told by their own parents that they are sinners. How many black parents kick their children out for being black? When a black kid is picked on for their race, do his parents ask him to stop acting so black? Does his black preacher tell him that being black is a sin? Even if you go to poor schools and have poor job prospects, your family is there for you because they are in the same boat. Gay men and women have to fight against our own families and religions for respect. I've never heard of a black kid killing himself for being black. SLC is filled with gay male prostitutes who were kicked out by their sanctimonious middle class Mormon families.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 07:20AM by axeldc.

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Posted by: postpostmormon ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 08:33AM

Larry Kramer, author of The Normal Heart, has said gays are the only minority group born into the enemy camp.

No black child has to go home from school after being taunted and bullied and fear telling their parents that they are black.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 08:38AM

For all the wealth and priviledge some gay men (not all) have, the emotional scars of being rejected, or just growing up fearing rejection, by your own family are harsh. I've had 3 gay Mormon friends kill themselves, all college graduates and all middle class white males. I personally fought with my parents for years over this, and dealt with my own self-rejection as a gay Mormon teen in Reagan's America.

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Posted by: postpostmormon ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 08:46AM

So tragic to have NO support around you. Rejection is not even a strong enough word when no one at school, church or at home offers any support to a frightened, bullied child. Those of us who grew up gay 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago carry deep wounds that never completely heal. For many, suicide was the only escape from the pain.

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Posted by: anonfornow ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 08:49AM

The cartoon nailed it.

I think it an error of generalization to state that no back kid ever killed himself for being black. Self-hatred is a significant issue for many black people.

It's the same type of error to assume that all, or most, gay people are white, upper income males.

Gay Muslims risk death, a sentence extreme Christians would appreciate.

Let's say that I'm a Christian business owner, and it offends my religious beliefs that Jews have rejected Christ, and that Muslims embrace Muhammed. Am I free to not only not serve them, but also not employ them?

What about working women? What if it's a tenet of my church that women ought not work outside the home?

Let's assume for a moment that Muslims become the majority in, say, New York City. They want a "religious freedom" law, just like other similar laws have been allowed to stand.

These laws are intentionally broad, to avoid naming names, i.e., an outright statemnt that a business may discriminate against gay people would in itself create a protected class. In not naming names, they leave the door open to create the religious law chaos the Constitution sought to avoid.

Because the titles and nature of these laws are religious, they are overtly unconstitutional, and should ultimately be overturned by the Supreme Court. Whether the SC has the moral fortitude to do so, they do have the duty, and we should not be lax in our duties in forcing them to do theirs.

Domination theology of any stripe is abhorrent, and we see the ultimate evil of warring beliefs in the Middle East. These "religious freedom" laws actually mock our religious freedom.

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Posted by: postpostmormon ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 09:02AM

Gay men and women, of course, cover every part of the socioeconomic spectrum, as do straight folks. Just because the "visible" gay men that one is able to identify as such in public are affluent does not mean all or even most gay men are economically privileged. That's an ignorant assumption. It's called profiling.

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Posted by: anonfornow ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 09:41AM

"THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. WILL NOT SERVE ARMED CITIZENS. We further believe that corporations have the right to protect their God-given right to provide for their families, so we believe that we right to shoot you if you try to rob us."

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 10:23AM

You know what. I'm a pretty average hetero guy or so it seems to me. When I honestly looked at the "gay issue" (god that cracks me up to say that. It sure as hell is not a gay issue is it?) and did some personal research, and even (catches breath) talked to gays I work with and lived across the street, I finally came to a conclusion.

My entire life I was unjustifiably lied to about everything on the subject of same sex attraction for the agenda of religious belief and ignorance.

Now as the average guy that I am it still did not take a rocket Scientist, that I am not, to figure out that gays have been treated as pawns, devils, the enemy and discriminated against since day one. The only difference is you can't see gay. If you could all the same atrocities would have be perpetrated on gays too. Pretty hard to hide skin color.

When you are looking through a world view built by Mormonism the view is logic skewed by ignorance coupled with religious dogma that requires enemies so Blacks sat on the 'fence' and did not help in a heavenly war and gays are icky and will turn everyone around them into pedi's.

So Steve this guy through his own worldview is exactly what you called him. Clueless. Of course I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

In this guy's mind his worldview may always remain an ignorant one and he may go to his grave never wanting to truly understand gays, blacks (or any other color) or what discrimination actually means.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 10:32AM

The final straw that led me out of the church was coming out. I was told horrible things about gay people by the church. Even though I had those attractions, I was told they were sinful and corrupt desires. I was afraid to come out because I thought my family would hate me and I would die alone of AIDS.

When I finally met other gay Mormons, and read about gay lives, I realized how many lies LDS, Inc had told me to keep me subjugated and in the closet. I'm lucky in that I found out at 26 and not 56 like some guys. I never got married nor had kids.

One of my last times at church, while I was still Stake Exec Sec, Vaughn Featherstone came to speak at Stake Conference. He was pleasant and I got to eat lunch with him. However, his talks were all filled with such antigay bigotry and lies that I knew it was his own personal prejudice talking, not divine revelation. He got so many things wrong about gays. I couldn't believe him on other subjects if he was going to lie to me about something I knew more about than him.

I'd always thought my intelligence was my greatest attribute. Now I realize my internal fortitude is even more important. I know several people who cracked and did stupid things while coming out. My attitude was to flip the bird at those who lied to me or tried to discriminate against me. I'm a very nice guy who tries to be friendly, but if you don't like me for who I am, then screw you!

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Posted by: postpostmormon ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 11:02AM

I should have added no protection or support from government or "the state" in my post above in addition to no support from church, school and family.

To this day in the majority of states, gays have no protection from being fired from their job just because of who they love. Yes, even in states that allow same sex marriage, there are cases of folks marrying their partner one day and being fired from their job the next. Imagine going from what is supposed to be the happiest day of your life to losing your livelihood the next, with no recourse.

At least black folks are federally protected from this, as they should be -- as ALL citizens of this country should be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 11:51AM by postpostmormon.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 10:41AM

My ex and I just discussed this.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 11:01AM

Adam Thomason is an African American and the CEO/co-founder of Collision Records, an indie Hip-hop label. He argues that there can never be a true comparison between the plight of gay Americans and African Americans. He cites five main reasons:

1. You have never seen–and won’t see–“heterosexual only” and “gay only” water fountains, diners, buses, schools, in light of 75 years of oppressive Jim Crow laws.

Homosexual men/women will never see a society that makes it a point–IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE–to remind them that they’re lesser in creation and not deserving of life’s joys. The homosexual man/woman has never seen this day and never will.

2. You have not–and won’t–see homosexuals snatched away from their families at birth for the purpose of division and dehumanization.

Some may think this is unfair because it deals with something that happened pre-civil rights, but historians agree that this was the root of all that was combatted during the Civil Rights era. Society has never been set up to divide and conquer the homosexual from birth.

3. Homosexual men/women have never endured a slave trade for generations and witnessed their ancestors dying by the numbers during a “Middle Passage” and being sold for raw goods.

The Middle Passage is part of the African American legacy as it brought Africans to America–as property. Many died during the Middle Passage; and those that made it, with strong communal ties, were sold for raw material. They were seen not as a person but as valuable property at best–their value being determined by the trader, auctioneer, and families with the highest bid. Homosexual men/women in their struggle of “inequality” will never know of a day, month, year or decades that define them or their culture in this way.

4. Homosexuals have never been–or will be considered–non-citizens by laws of the United States that rob them of inalienable rights.

Dread Scott sued the federal courts for his freedom but lost 7-2 due to the fact that he, nor any other person of African ancestry, could claim citizenship in the United States. Homosexuals will never know a day where they are not considered citizens of the United States.

5. Homosexuals will never face a societal norm that allows–and even promotes–them to be beaten because they are seen as property and treated like cattle with scripture as a basis for justification.

Frederick Douglass writes on these common atrocities:

I have seen him tie up a lame young woman, and whip her with a heavy cowskin upon her naked shoulders, causing the warm red blood to drip; and, in justification of the bloody deed, he would quote this passage of Scripture–“He that knoweth his master’s will, and doeth it not, shall be beaten with many stripes (pg. 57).”


Cited from http://forthdistrict.com/5-reasons-gay-is-not-the-new-black/


A poll commissioned by Black Entertainment Network in 2013 found that "55% of Blacks Say Gay Rights Not the Same as Civil Rights"

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/poll-55-blacks-say-gay-rights-not-same-civil-rights

Here's an article that includes an interview with a gay black man. He notes that he was able to conceal his homosexuality, but could never conceal his race. He says they cannot be compared:

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/28/us/blacks-rejecting-gay-rights-as-a-battle-equal-to-theirs.html

Here are additional resources. Most are sympathetic with the gay movement, but believe comparisons with the historic struggle of African Americans is not valid:

http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2012/05/22/why_gay_is_not_the_new_black

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/blacks-dont-believe-gay-rights-are-the-same-as-civil-rights-poll

It's worth noting that while support for gay marriage has increased across all segments of our society -- including among blacks -- there remains a substantial portion of the black community that rejects comparisons of their struggle with that of gay Americans.

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Posted by: postpostmormon ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 11:18AM

While we can certainly agree that African Americans have suffered horrendous atrocities, that does not negate the atrocities suffered by homosexuals. And today, the majority of black folks DO support same sex marriage and protections for gays, just as the majority of white folks do. Attitudes on this issue have morphed tremendously, even in the last 2 years. Some of the cited posts are a couple of years old.

Civil rights are human rights. I wouldn't say that the gay experience is the same as the struggle that African Americans have had. We've had to endure different hardships, but the result is the same -- we are ALL sitting at that lunch counter together when it comes to a bigoted law like the one passed in Indiana.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 01:12PM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 01:09PM

"BLACKLASH?
by Henry Louis Gates, Jr.
"The New Yorker"

"All prejudices are not equal. But that doesn't mean there's no comparison between the predicaments of gays and blacks.

"For some veterans of the civil-rights era, it's a matter of stolen prestige. 'It is a misappropriation for members of the gay leadership to identify the April 25 march on Washington with the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s 1963 mobilization,' one such veteran, the Reverend Dennis G. Kuby, wrote in a letter to the editor that appeared in the Times on the day of the march. Four days later, testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee's hearings on the issues of gays in the military, Lieutenant General Calvin Waller, United States Army (retired), was more vociferous. General Waller, who, as General Norman Schwarzkopf's second-in-command, was the highest-ranking black officer in the Gulf War's theatre of operations, contemptuously dismissed any linkage between the gay-rights and civil-rights movements. 'I had no choice regarding my race when I was delivered from my mother's womb,' General Waller said. 'To compare my service in America's armed forces with the integration of avowed homosexuals is personally offensive to me.' This sentiment -- that gays are pretenders to the throne of disadvantage that properly belongs to black Americans, that their relation to the rhetoric of civil rights is one of unearned opportunism -- is surprisingly widespread. 'The backlash is on the streets among blacks and black pastors who do not want to be aligned with homosexuals,' the Reverend Lou Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition, crowed to the Times in the aftermath of the march.

"That the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People endorsed the April 25th march made the insult all the deeper for those who disparage the gay-rights movement as the politics of imposture -- Liberace in Rosa Parks drag. 'Gays are not subject to water hoses or police dogs, denied access to lunch counters or prevented from voting,' the Reverend Mr. Kuby asserted. On the contrary, 'most gays are perceived as well educated, socially mobile and financially comfortable.' Even some of those sympathetic to gay rights are unhappy with the models of oppression and victimhood which they take to be enshrined in the civil-rights discourse that many gay advocates have adopted. For those blacks and whites who viewed last month's march on Washington with skepticism, to be gay is merely an inconvenience; to be black is to inherit a legacy of hardship and inequity. For them, there's no comparison. But the reason the national conversation on the subject has reached an impasse isn't that there's simply no comparison; it's that there's no *simple* comparison.

"Prejudices, of course, don't exist in the abstract; they all come with distinctive and distinguishing historical peculiarities. In short, they have content as well as form. Underplaying the differences blinds us to the signature traits of other forms of social hatred. Indeed, in judging other prejudices by the one you know best you may fail to recognize those other prejudices *as* prejudices.

"To take a quick and fairly obvious example, it has been observed that while anti-black racism charges its object with inferiority, anti-Semitism charges its object with iniquity. The racist believes that blacks are incapable of running anything by themselves. The anti-Semite believes (in one popular bit of folklore) that thirteen rabbis rule the world.

"How do gays fit into this scheme? Uneasily. Take that hard- ridden analogy between blacks and gays. Much of the ongoing debate over gay rights has fixated, and foundered, on the vexed distinction between "status" and "behavior." The paradox here can be formulated as follows: Most people think of racial identity as a matter of (racial) status, but they respond to it as behavior. Most people think of sexual identity as a matter of (sexual) behavior, but they respond to it as status. Accordingly, people who fear and dislike blacks are typically preoccupied with the threat that they think blacks' aggressive behavior poses to them. Hence they're inclined to make exceptions for the kindly, "civilized" blacks: that's why "The Cosby Show" could be so popular among white South Africans. By contrast, the repugnance that many people feel toward gays concerns, in the first instance, the status ascribed to them. Disapproval of a sexual practice is transmuted into the demonization of a sexual species.

"In other respects, too, anti-gay propaganda sounds less like anti-black rhetoric than like classical anti-Jewish rhetoric: both evoke the image of the small, cliquish minority that nevertheless commands disproportionate and sinister worldly influence. More broadly, attitudes toward homosexuals are bound up with sexism and the attitudes toward gender that feminism, with impressive, though only partial, success, asks us to re-examine.

"That doesn't mean that the race analogy is without merit, or that there are no relevant points of comparison. Just as blacks have historically been represented as sexually uncontrollable beasts, ready to pounce on an unwilling victim with little provocation, a similar vision of the predatory homosexual has been insinuated, often quite subtly, into the defense of the ban on gays in the military.

"But can gays really claim anything like the 'victim status' inherited by black Americans? 'They admit to holding positions at the highest levels of power in education, government, business and entertainment,' Martin Mawyer, the president of the Christian Action Network, complains, 'yet in the same breath, they claim to be suffering discrimination in employment.' Actually, the question itself is a sand trap. First, why should oppression, however it's measured, be a prerequisite for legal protection? Surely there's a consensus that it would be wrongful, and unlawful, for someone to discriminate against Unitarians in housing or employment, however secure American Unitarians were as a group. Granted, no one can legislate affection or approval. But the simple fact that people enjoy legal protection from religious discrimination neither confers nor requires victimization. Why is the case of sexual orientation any different?

"Second, trying to establish a pecking order of oppression is generally a waste of time: that's something we learned from a long-standing dialogue in the feminist movement. People figured out that you could speak of the subordination of women without claiming, absurdly, that every woman (Margaret Thatcher, say) was subordinate to every man. Now, the single greatest predictor of people's economic success is the economic and educational level of their parents. Since gays, like women, seem to be evenly distributed among classes and races, the compounding effect of transgenerational poverty, which is the largest factor in the relative deprivation of black America, simply doesn't apply. Much of black suffering stems from historical racism; most gay suffering stems from contemporary hatred. It's also the case that the marketing surveys showing that gays have a higher than average income and education level are generally designed to impress potential advertisers in gay publications; quite possibly, the surveys reveal the characteristics only of gays who are willing to identify themselves as such in a questionnaire. Few people would be surprised to learn that secretiveness on this matter varies inversely with education and income level.

"What makes the race analogy complicated is that gays, as demographic composites, do indeed "have it better" than blacks -- and yet in many ways contemporary homophobia is more virulent than contemporary racism. According to one monitoring group, one in four gay men has been physically assaulted as a result of his perceived sexual orientation; about fifty percent have been threatened with violence. (For lesbians, the incidence is lower but still disturbing.) A moral consensus now exists in this country that discriminating against blacks as teachers, priests, or tenants is simply wrong. (That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.) For much of the country, however, the moral legitimacy of homosexuals, as homosexuals, remains much in question. When Bill Crews, for the past nine years the mayor of the well-scrubbed hamlet of Melbourne, Iowa, returned home after the April 25th march, at which he had publicly disclosed his homosexuality for the first time, he found "Melbourne Hates Gays" and "No @#$%&" spray-painted on his house. What makes the closet so crowded is that gays are, as a rule, still socialized -- usually by their nearest and dearest -- into shame.

"Mainstream religious figures -- ranging from Catholic archbishops to orthodox rabbis -- continue to enjoin us to 'hate the sin': it has been a long time since anyone respectable urged us to, as it were, hate the skin. Jimmy Swaggart, on the other hand, could assure his millions of followers that the Bible says homosexuals are 'worthy of death' and get away with it. Similar access to mass media is not available to those who voice equivalent attitudes toward blacks. In short, measured by their position in society, gays on the average seem privileged relative to blacks; measured by the acceptance of hostile attitudes toward them, gays are worse off than blacks. So are they as "oppressed"? The question presupposes a measuring rod that does not and cannot exist.

"To complicate matters further, disapproval of homosexuality has been a characteristic of much of the black-nationalist ideology that has reappeared in the aftermath of the civil- rights era. 'Homosexuality is a deviation from Afrocentric thought, because it makes the person evaluate his own physical needs above the teachings of national consciousness,' writes Dr. Molefi Kete Asante, of Temple University, who directs the black-studies program there, one of the country's largest. Asante believes that 'we can no longer allow our social lives to be controlled by European decadence,' and argues that "the redemptive power of Afrocentricity" provides hope of a cure for those so afflicted, through (the formulation has a regrettably fascist ring) "the submergence of their own wills into the collective will of our people."

"In the end, the plaintive rhetoric of the Reverend Mr. Kuby and those civil-rights veterans who share his sense of unease is notable for a small but significant omission: any reference to those blacks who are also gay. And in this immediate context one particular black gay man comes to mind. Actually it's curious that those who feel that the example of the 1963 march on Washington has been misappropriated seem to have forgotten about him, since it was he, after all, who organized that heroic march. His name, of course, was Bayard Rustin, and it's quite likely that if he had been alive he would have attended the march on Washington thirty years later.

"By a poignant historical irony, it was in no small part because of his homosexuality -- and the fear that it would be used to discredit the mobilization -- that Rustin was prevented from being named director of the 1963 march; the title went to A. Philip Randolph, and he accepted it only on the condition that he could then deputize Rustin to do the arduous work of co-ordinating the mass protest. Rustin accepted the terms readily. In 1963, it was necessary to choose which of two unreasoning prejudices to resist, and Rustin chose without bitterness or recrimination. Thirty years later, people marched so his successors wouldn't have to make that costly choice."
_____


"Similarities Between Race and Sexual Orientation"

--"Both race and sexual orientation are a basis for minority group status in U.S. culture. Social scientists have proposed many different definitions and criteria for minority groups, recognizing that not all groups fit all criteria. The most important feature is that a minority group's members must manifest one or more characteristics that society uses as a basis for discrimination, despite the irrelevance of those characteristics to the setting in which discrimination occurs. Race and sexual orientation each constitute a master status.
Once known, the fact that a person is a homosexual or a member of a racial minority group is regarded by members of the majority group (heterosexuals, Whites) as one of the most important pieces of information about her or him. Consequently, once a man or woman is labeled by heterosexuals as a homosexual, all of her or his behaviors — regardless of whether they are related to sexual orientation — are likely to be interpreted in light of her or his sexual orientation. Similarly, once a person's non-White race or ethnicity is known by a White, all other information about the individual — even information that is totally unrelated to race — is likely to be interpreted differently than if the person were White.

--"Members of racial and sexual minorities are the targets of prejudice. Anti-Black attitudes were widespread in the U.S. military when President Truman ordered an end to racial discrimination in the armed forces in 1948. Societal norms supported strict social and residential segregation of Whites and Negroes. Although Whites' attitudes toward Blacks have changed in the past half-century, both in civilian life and the military, racial prejudice is still widespread in U.S. society. Similarly, substantial numbers of heterosexual Americans express negative attitudes toward gay men and lesbians.

--"For both groups, prejudice leads to differential treatment at the hands of the majority. Despite extensive efforts to counteract the effects of racism, African Americans today experience differential treatment because of their race. Compared to Whites, Blacks are economically and socially disadvantaged. Indeed, despite the DOD's considerable efforts to promote racial equality, African Americans are still less likely than Whites to be promoted. Prejudice also causes gay people to receive differential treatment. Various studies have shown that significant numbers of gay men and lesbians experience discrimination and violence.

--"New military personnel policies concerning race and sexual orientation have both faced considerable opposition. Prior to President Truman's Executive Order, opinion in the armed services generally supported segregation policies. This opinion reflected the era's prevailing stereotypes and prejudices. For example, a 1937 report from senior officers at the U.S. Army War College provided a litany of characterizations of Black soldiers that now are recognized as stereotypes:

"'As an individual the Negro is docile, tractable, lighthearted, care free and good natured. If unjustly treated he is likely to become surly and stubborn, though this is usually a temporary phase. He is careless, shiftless, irresponsible and secretive. He resents censure and is best handled with praise and by ridicule. He is unmoral, untruthful, and his sense of right doing is relatively inferior.' (quoted in Ambrose, 1972, p. 177).

"As in debates about a new policy concerning sexual orientation, discussions of racial integration of the military in the 1940s often included dire predictions based on then-widespread prejudices. The report of a 1942 General Board commissioned to consider the integration of African Americans in the Navy, for example, concluded that "the enlistment of negroes [sic] for unlimited general service is inadvisable." It offered the following rationale:

"'Enlistment for general service implies that the individual may be sent anywhere — to any ship or station where he is needed. Men on board ship live in particularly close association; in their messes, one man sits beside another; their hammocks or bunks are close together; in their common tasks they work side by side; and in particular tasks such as those of a gun's crew, they form a closely knit, highly coordinated team. How many white men would choose, of their own accord, that their closest associates in sleeping quarters, at mess, and in a gun's crew should be of another race? How many would accept such conditions, if required to do so, without resentment and just as a matter of course? The General Board believes that the answer is 'Few, if any,' and further believes that if the issue were forced, there would be a lowering of contentment, teamwork and discipline in the service.' (Navy General Board, 1942, p. 1)

"In a 1948 Gallup Poll of 3000 American adults, 63% of those surveyed favored racial segregation of the military whereas only 26% supported integration. President Truman was strongly criticized for his Executive Order, and the attacks were often accompanied by dire predictions about the weakening of the U.S. armed forces and national security. Senator Richard B. Russell, for example, spoke against the policy on the Senate floor, offering predictions that are remarkably similar to some of those made in the recent debates about allowing gay people to serve openly in the military:

"' . . . [T]he mandatory intermingling of the races throughout the services will be a terrific blow to the efficiency and fighting power of the armed services....It is sure to increase the numbers of men who will be disabled through communicable diseases. It will increase the rate of crime committed by servicemen.' (Quoted in Binkin et al., 1982, p. 26)"
_____


"Why Persecuting Homosexuals Is All the Rage in the Developing World"
by Damian Thompson
31 January 2014

"Is homophobia the new anti-colonialism? It’s an odd question to ask, but an important one. In dozens of countries, the persecution of homosexuals has acquired a new ferocity. Anti-gay sentiment is turning into a cause that unites non-Western societies divided by religion, ethnicity and history.

"This is bad news, obviously, for gay people who find themselves dragged in front of magistrates, bullied out of their jobs, spat at in the street or executed. It’s also jolly embarrassing for Western governments, who don’t want to say anything that might jeopardise trade relations – and also for liberals, who hate to point the finger at the developing world.

"The one example of persecution that’s attracted a lot of attention is Russia’s new ban on 'gay propaganda.' No one in the West likes Putin’s regime, which you can criticise without risking charges of racism. As we speak, Olympic athletes and gay activists are planning protests at the Sochi games. But when it comes to the Middle East, Africa and south Asia, any Westerner who sticks up for gay rights is inviting accusations of racism, neo-colonialism and Islamophobia.

"I’ve been looking at the map, and I reckon you could walk from Angola to Burma without setting foot on land where homosexual activity is legal – except for a sliver of Iraq, which had decriminalisation imposed on it in 2003 but which is one of the most dangerous places on earth for gays.

"The taboo against same-sex activity is getting stronger, not weaker. The spread of Islamism is a factor: it’s no coincidence that homosexuality is legal in the Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank but not in Hamas-controlled Gaza. However, Christians and Hindus are implicated, too.

"In Nigeria, Anglican clergy helped pass into law the Same-Sex Marriage Prohibition Act, which bans even displays of affection between homosexuals. In Uganda, parliament has passed a bill that calls on citizens to report homosexuals to the authorities. India has just recriminalised gay sex.

"Why this resurgence of homophobia? Most anti-gay countries, with the exception of India, are economically stagnant – and resentful of the prosperous, decadent West. (Note that China, preoccupied by money, can’t be bothered to climb aboard the anti-gay bandwagon.)

"Until recently, anti-colonialism united these countries; but, with so few colonies left, that cause has been struggling. Then along came same-sex marriage, which Western LGBT activists want to see legalised everywhere.

"Suddenly conservative societies have a new bogeyman, a neo-imperialist assault on their ancient way of life. And how interesting that Russia should choose this moment to target its own sexual minorities. Just as the Soviet Union once led the anti-colonial movement, so now Putin is portraying himself as the champion of “traditional values”.

"Gay marriage still divides public opinion in American and Europe, but the concept itself has become very familiar to us very quickly. Also, since young Westerners are overwhelmingly in favour, gay campaigners feel assured of final victory. No one seems to care about the price of that victory, which is being paid by homosexual people in conservative societies. And it will continue to be paid, long after same-sex marriage becomes a comfortable feature of life here.

"The LGBT lobby found it ludicrously easy to change the law in Britain – thanks, unexpectedly, to the Tories. Now let’s see it rise to the much less fashionable challenge of wiping out vicious legislation in the developing world."
_____


"Refuting Anti-Gay Rights Arguments"
Josh Sager

"Back in the era of slavery, there were several definitions of marriage. Marriage between white Americans was similar to what we now consider marriage today (although with fewer rights for the woman and less of a possibility for divorce), but marriage for the other races was radically different. Marriages between slaves, when permitted, were annullable through distance (ex. when one of them was sold) and had no legal value. Marriages between white Americans and free black Americans weren’t legal under the law at all. Eventually, slavery was abolished, and interracial marriage was legalized, but it is still important to note that marriage was changed radically within the lifespan of our relatively young civilization."

*********


CONCLUSION

To deny the commonalities of suffering, persecution and oppression shared by both the Black and Gay communities over time is to deny historical parallels where they certainly exist and to minimize the mutual experience of pain, prejudice, torture, murder and denial of basic human dignity that has afflicted both of these undeservedly targeted groups.

Bigotry is bigotry. Hate is hate. Disdain is disdain. Denial of human and civil rights is denial of human and civil rights.

Being Black or being Gay, it doesn't matter. Both are members of historically despised and savagely mistreated minority groups that have drunk from the same bitter cup of group-identity abuse and dehumanization.

Get over the destructive and inhumane idea that there is no rejuvenating bond in acknowleding the real and mutual legacies of suffering between these two classes of unique, yet linked, human beings. To insist on defining, then imposing, barriers and differences serves only to divide rather than to unite. Blacks and Gays have walked the walk and talked the talk both together and in their own ways. Join the conversation, Participate in the march. Help the cause. Rcognize the collective humanity of it all. Geezus. And get a life--hopefully one that's meaningfully connected to, and shared with, others.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 01:30PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 01:18PM

Yes, I know how repressed blacks are today and have been in the past. However, if you want to play this game:

1) Name an openly gay US President, Governor, US Senator or Supreme Court Justice.

2) Gays were executed by the Nazis alongside Jews and Gypsies. The Pink Triangle was forced upon them like the Yellow star. Gays were some of the worst treated prisoners by Nazis, and German gays were treated as race traitors.

3) Gays have been murdered and are murdered today by homophobic governments. In the Middle Ages, gays were burned at the stake. Today, Gay Muslims are stoned or buried alive in the Middle East, including in US allied states like Egypt. Iran has public beheadings of gays in football stadiums.

4) You cannot be fired for being black. Implicit discrimination is rife, but you can explicitly cite homosexuality as a reason for dismissal in most states. How many students has BYU expelled for being black?

5) Black families don't kick out their children for being black. So-called Christian families kick out their gay children all the time. Alan Keyes kicked out his daughter, who ran his Presidential campaign, when she came out as a lesbian.

6) Blacks have always been allowed to marry other blacks. Interracial marriage became legal across the US in 1967. Gay marriage was legal in one state in 2005, and not Federally recognized until 2013. A gay couple cannot be married in 16 US states today.

7) You do realize that there are black gays? Many are treated horribly by their families, especially so-called Christian ones.

Debating whom is the most repressed is a silly and divisive game. The one advantage blacks hold over gays is that they receive unmitigated support from their families and communities for being black. Mormons still treat their own gay children like shit, no matter how wealthy they may be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 01:20PM by axeldc.

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Posted by: anonfornow ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 01:02PM

Excuse me, but I don't see slaves in the cartoon.

I see an equal violation of civil rights.

While I understand the legacy of slavery, the violence being passed generation to generation on all sides of slavery, that is not what the law, or IMHO, the cartoon, depticts.

To compare the situation of a century ago to the status of blacks in modern society, or compare to even fifty years ago, are false comparisons. I would hope that though historically aware, no US-born black citizen alive today has ever "seen" another black citizen as a slave, as defined in 1861. I'm sure that there are black people alive today who will have lived during the sixties, but I would challenge to convincingly argue that the racial situation is not radically different today.

And, I would ask what it took to accomplish that.

When states have the freedom to enact laws designed to protect public discrimination of any sort, many should cry "Foul!"

When I say "public" discrimination, I mean those entities licenced by the state to conduct commerce, on public thoroghfares, all funded -also- by members of those minority groups. The licensing, the streets, sidewalks, police and fire, water, and so on.

The state has a sworn duty to represent all of its citizens. When it enacts laws specifically protecting licenced entities to discrimately choose, on the basis of religious beliefs, which citizens will be served, it fails in its duty.

IMHO, the state negates those unprotected from the requirement to (re)pay duty to licence those entities. The math becomes impossible. Such a broad law defies logic.

Nor do such laws help to guarantee equal rights for all, including non-gay black people. While enjoying the protections afforded by many years of on-going struggle to eradicate racism, I would ask, if such a comparison is meaningful if the business "bears witness" to those bible verses concerning the "mixing" of races. I'm not stating that that is the "true" interpretation; I'm stating that "religious freedom" may well protect discrimination against people of all races, and all sexual orientations. Again, the math becomes impossible.

"Religious freedom" is freedom to follow any bible desired. One created 2000 or 200 years ago, or one created last week.

I would be very, very careful about wanting my "Religious freedom" "protected" by the state.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 01, 2015 01:10PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 01:11PM by steve benson.

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