fiction."

with: "you must have gone to public school in Mississippi"

"with: "you must have gone to public school in Mississippi"

Surely you mean Utah, not Mississippi. Utah is the state where a substantial portion of the populace believe that the Book of Mormon is authentic history. Very few residents of Mississippi believe that.

I would respond to the OP's question by asking the TBM "Okay, if the BOM 'feels' real to you, how about you research and find out what professional, unbiased scholars think of it?"

I'd also tell the TBM that not even all active Mormons believe that the BOM is authentic, the SLC talk radio host Van Hale being one such example.

You might also point the TBM to the late Mormon historian BH Roberts' findings on the BOM's origin:

http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/bhroberts.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 07:39AM by randyj.

No, I meant Mississippi. Having lived there for about 4 years I can tell you that nationally they often rank 49 out of 50 in education (beating out Alabama). This is also deep in the "bible belt", where critical thinking is non-existent.

I'd throw it at them, saying ...

"There, now it it's struck you as book of fiction."

... but hopefully without stuttering. :(

It just doesn't strike me as a book of fiction......


Well, obviously you aren't hitting your head hard enough with it.

Neither did "The Night Before Christmas" when you were a kid....how old are you now?

It just doesn't strike me as a book of truth....so there, we're even!

So, what does that have to do with me?

Lately I don't think I would even respond. After reading so many TBM comments in Daniel C. Peterson's Deseret News articles, I'm wondering if anything would get through to them. Facts don't matter and truth isn't important to them.

Orson Scott Card, the famous Mormon fiction-writer, wrote an entire article on that theme here: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-bookofmormon.html.

My rebuttal, is here: http://packham.n4m.org/card-bom.htm

It's very telling how the arguments of a supposedly world-class author can be easily rebutted by the average person using a few opposing facts and a little bit of logic. Alexander Campbell's remarks about how the BOM's doctrinal themes solved the sectarian controversies of Joseph Smith's day were spot on. Not to mention the fact that there's no evidence outside of the BOM that any ancient native Americans had any knowledge of Judeo-Christianity at all.

Except for your quotes, I didn't bother to read Card's article beyond the following:

"Or he did not get the Book of Mormon the way he said, in which case somebody in the 1820s in the United States made it up, and in that case it is fiction, and we should find Joseph Smith's or someone else's influence there as author. In that case all of the ideas and events in the book should come out of the mind of an 1820s American, and it should reflect faithfully the kind of thing an 1820s American would do in trying to create a record which he was going to pass off as an ancient document. "

Contrast Card's assertion with BH Roberts' opinion:

"was Joseph Smith possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon from such materials as have been indicated in the proceeding chapters... That such power of imagination would have to be of a high order is conceded; that Joseph Smith possessed such a gift of mind there can be no question....
“In light of this evidence, there can be no doubt as to the possession of a vividly strong, creative imagination by Joseph Smith, the Prophet, an imagination, it could with reason be urged, which, given the suggestions that are found in the ‘common knowledge’ of accepted American antiquities of the times, supplemented by such a work as Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews [published in Palmyra in 1825], it would make it possible for him to create a book such as the Book of Mormon is.”

- Studies of the Book of Mormon, by B.H. Roberts, p. 243, 250

Funny how Roberts demolished Card's premise a century before Card wrote it. I assume that Card wrote his article for an audience of wide-eyed TBMs who know nothing of the facts.

That's because it's a work of friction. Zion's friction, to be exact.

I teach several nonfiction courses at the university level. One of the difficulties with nonfiction is maintaining the level of truth that the readers demands from a book that is based on facts.

In fiction, the truth can break down from the "Inside-out"...that is, the world that the writer created fails to make sense. It lacks logic. Like a bloodless Nephi after committing a decapitation. Like wooden submarines filled with kids, horses and honeybees. Like people's skin magically changing color.

In nonfiction, the real problem comes from truth breaking down from the "Outside-in"...meaning evidence from the world we know does not support the author's claims for how events transpired. Like no evidence whatsoever for ANY of the events mentioned in the Book of Mormon, or its origin story.

The Book of Mormon fails as nonfiction, and it is not even a good attempt at fiction.

It's a series of fairy-tale adventures from the mind of a religious con-man. That's all.

If you have time read the book of Ether and the story of the Brother of Jared together. When the time is appropriate, look ernestly into your friends eyes and gently ask "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Have them read the 1830, first edition...

Are you referring to the infamous Shiz section?

Or the million-plus armies fighting down to just the 2 men?

or the wooden barges where you plug up the air hole?

or the . . . . . .

The fact that the BOM tries to be an imitation of the KJV of the bible makes in unbelievable. There is no original copy or other sources of the stories. BOM "experts" can't even agree where in the Americas the people lived.

Ancient hieroglyphs tend to deal with who was the ruler or beliefs of the people such as creation stories. Writing of actual conversations suggests a personal journal. So which is the BOM?

"Massive amounts of evidence show that it is a work of fiction. So your feeling that it isn't, in the face of all that evidence, has little or no value."

The statement is essentially an argument from personal incredulity -- a worthless fallacy. Might point that out as well. :)

"Mark Twain and I disagree."

I'd wouldn't respond, but I wonder how many books a year they read that aren't religious or politically inflammatory.

Ha-ha-ha-laugh-giggle-snort-tee-hee! Your comment doesn't strike me as anything but a joke! Who uses how something "strikes you" as serious or credible evidence of anything?? Only a Mormon would say such a thing! Hardy-har-har!"

Seriously, Mormons tuck it in the minute they realize what a joke they are.

So, The Mormon God created a sacred text of fiction making it not easily recognized as such?

Wow. That is some clever god.

I am not certain the Church will be seeking non-fiction status for the Book of mormon much longer. This is incredibly problematic moving forward, but even worse problems are ignored currently by Mormons.

Is not the primary message of the Book of Mormon at this time that it is valuable to the person claiming it is valuable for the prospect?

Here's where you can buy some:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/e5a7/#tabs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2015 01:50PM by dydimus.