I recently read the Letter to a CES Director. I wanted to see the other side of the story, so I attempted to read Fair Mormon's response to it, only to realize that it's something like 1,000 pages long! I was just wondering if anyone here has actually read all of Fair's response to the letter?

P.S. - I'm in the beginning stages of a faith crisis, so I'm sure a lot of you are probably wondering why I'm even bothering reading Fair; right now I just want to get as much info as I can, from both sides of the fence.

I don't think that anyone has bothered to read everything that they have said, though I have read parts of it. Jeremy has read what they have to say, and has put up the 'Debunking Fair's Debunking' section to show their ever-changing arguments, and where they agree and disagree with his letter, and what changes (if any) he has made to his letter. They have made a few valid points, which are nit-picky and don't really have any meaning, but Jeremy has changed areas where he made some mistakes.
If I were you, I would go to mormonthink.com next. They touch on the same same subject, and more, in a lot more detail, and include fair's apologetics and the church's official stance as part of their analysis. Their website is thorough and well-documented, and might help to answer a lot of your questions.
Other than that, welcome to the site, and I hope you enjoy your stay, be it temporary or permanent.

It's amazing to me that something so obvious from the outside is not so obvious by those on the inside.

Mormonism is such a clear and blatant lie that it seems like the signs of its corruption can be found everywhere. Well, at least that's how i see it now that I've escaped.

Anyway, the reason that FAIR's response is so long and elaborate is because it creates a dust storm of information to fog up reality. They don't have any real answers.

If you want evidence of the falsity that is the lds church just look at its history. Look at all of the changing doctrines. Look at the destruction that it leaves in its path. Take a look at other religions...all who think they have the truth....just like Mormonism.

Leaving Mormonism was the best decision I ever made. Looking back I see that it is not merely a religion, but an extremist religion. It's mind numbing and dangerous. the religion itself becomes a lens by which you see the world. It's not an accurate picture of reality. It's a distorted reflection.

If you want truth, take the lens off for a while and see life theough a clear lens.

I remember I was scared to death to read about polyandry, even from Fair. I didn't want to know how much of it was true. My fears were later confirmed.

I haven't read Fair's official response, I don't know who has the time to. 1000 pages may seem like a thorough debunking of Jeramy Runnells, except that Jeramy responded to their debunking with his own website called "Debunking Fair's Debunking" where he called them out on their crap and exposed the tactics they use. They'll conceed 80% of what Jeramy wrote but then trivialize it/engage in ad homimim attacks on Jeramy/or focus on some tangential minutia that doesn't overturn the main point but they make it sound like it does.

1000 pages is not = to a thorough debunking.

I'd be asking why a 100 page Internet pdf has them on the ropes that it takes ten times as much effort to say "no that isn't true." It's because most of it is true, but they engage in mumbling and thumb-twiddling and talking in circles to prolong the inevitable faith crisis.

I think Jeramy surprised them with Debunking Fair's Debunking. They changed a lot of their original articles. Jeramy kept copies though. It's all the website below \/\/\/
http://cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/

I would say take your time and be deliberate. Whatever you do, you don't want to have regrets about acting rashly. But that's why this board exists is to help you. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. This has been done a hundred thousand times. You are not the first, and you're not alone.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They'll conceed 80% of what
> Jeramy wrote but then trivialize it/engage in ad
> homimim attacks on Jeramy/or focus on some
> tangential minutia that doesn't overturn the main
> point but they make it sound like it does.


Well put. This was the tactic followed by the late (but not so great) Hugh Nibley, FAIR's beloved hero. He always avoided the main argument and made a big deal out of minutia and put down the writer.

I just reviewed Nibley's response to Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History". In most cases he totally misrepresented or misquoted what Brodie had actually written, and then proceeded to attack his misstated version! What a complete phony Nibley was and that's the best Mormonism could come up with.

It's no wonder that Fawn's only comment was that Nibley's amateurish rebuttal wasn't worthy of a formal response. After reading what Nibley offered "in defense of the faith", I readily agree.

They do far more for the ex-Mormon cause than the most articulate and educated among us. Seriously...

Some "jewels" I remember from their old bulletin board...

"If you don't know anything about Joseph Smith's polygamy and marriages to other men's wives, that's your fault for not doing the research."

"As Joseph Smith's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, Joseph Smith could sew his seed where he saw fit."

"The story of the Mountain Meadows Massacre has always been acknowledged publicly by the LDS Church."

Well, never mind they blamed the Indians and John D. Lee alone until Juanita Brooks' works came out, and then they shifted the blame to the Indians and the Iron County Militia.

That is, if you could find the information. I just had a fare in the car last night, a Utah State University student--he transferred there from BYU--and since he'd had a few (never a crime in my book; he was of legal age), I asked him if he'd ever heard of MMM...

Nope... And honest, this was a sharp kid.

Agreed. Read away. When I saw the tactics, twists and turns, logic gaps and plain nonsense of FAIR's responses to some of the questions I had, I concluded that it was part of a deception. Pretty much sealed the deal for me that LD$ Inc had been lying to me my whole life.

Cabbie,

You quoted them as follows:

"As Joseph Smith's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, Joseph Smith could sew his seed where he saw fit."

That doesn't make sense on almost every level.

But did you quote it accurately? Why would they say that JS was his own "chosen Prophet?" Did they (or did you) mean "Jesus Christ's chosen Prophet"?)

If that's what they really wrote, then it's a perfect way for them to explain who JS really was - his OWN chosen Prophet.

HA!

Yeah, I think he meant to quote as follows:

"As God's chosen Prophet of the Restoration, Joseph Smith could sew his seed where he saw fit."

But I would never really presume to speak for Cabbie. I might get the ride of my life, if ya know what I mean!

;^D

I should wait and get some sleep after a long weekend behind the wheel...

FAIR did the same nonsense to us at MormonThink. They would misquote us, ad hominem us to death and do everything they could EXCEPT answer the issue with an intelligent answer that would make sense to any impartial reader.

The important thing to remember is that FAIR doesn't speak for the Church. Sometimes they are at odds with what the church says so members would have to choose to either follow the church or follow the apologists.

http://mormonthink.com/fair.htm

"... follow the apologists"

Sounds like a song in the making!

Good luck with your studies tm290.

I didn't read their stuff on CESletter personally. But when I was doing what you are doing now. I did the same thing. I read something, went to find out if they were true via church resources. Then later I went to Fair's page to see what they had to say on everything. And they helped bring me out of the church rather then keep me in. Their answers are just so silly at times.

And they confirmed things I was looking for and even informed me about things I had never heard of. (Like moon men.)

There are many people on here who have done what you have done, and while you are told to stay away from "evil apostates" like us. Please feel free to reach out with questions. This site is full of some great people with great insights and answers.

the failure of Fair to focus on anything of substance is a mirror-image of the way TSCC does business, isn't it?


nearly (close enough) to 100% of their energy is on 'church', which they attempt to equate with 'gospel'.

I agree with many of the posters above. I went through my faith crisis a year ago. I can still remember the panic that I felt when I clicked on FAIR. I only knew of a few of the church's issues at the time and seeing EVERYTHING on FAIR blew the doors wide open for me.

If you take the time to look at both sides, and the factual arguements they make, not the emotional ones, it becomes astonishingly clear.

Also, the things they now say 'you should have known' were NEVER taught in Sunday School or allowed in SM talks; PH lessons? Forget It!

GA talks on Joe marrying a 14 yo., other men's wives? NO SIR!

they were cleverly disguised / hidden away in rather obscure places.

Amen.

The responses are ridiculous. Jeremy even pointed out things like FAIR's response to polyandry, "We don't have proof that Joseph Smith had sex with any other man's wife, except one!"

J.S. spiritually married 9 other men's wife and just because they can only prove that he had sex with 1 of those, the other 8 were just aberrations??? So "A little Adultery" is okay or better? Is that like being a little pregnant?

Yeah Cabbie that's like my experience when I stopped in Cedar City to ask for directions to MM.

All I got at gas stations and convenience stores were blank stares from the clueless and uncaring citizens of Cedar City.

I finally found a map at the CC visitor's center.

While you are reading FAIR, make sure you take some time and read the essays on lds.org.

This website has links directly to them because they are hard to find.

www.mormonessays.com

Reading FAIR is actually what confirmed my suspicians regarding the bogus LDS faith. I mean, if someone at FAIR has to work that hard to explain "truth" then the gig is up. Reading FAIR, and trying to make sense of what they write, is a sure way to a migraine.

Not only are the physical proofs abundant that Mormonism is a fraud (you're on the path to discovery, my friend, and the only end point is leaving Mormonism), but there are the social and behavioral proofs that it is dangerous to the brain (i.e., the mind) and to your ability to think clearly and critically.

I refer you to the following links:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

(all about the 'appeal to emotion' error (in Mormon terms 'feeling the Spirit')

http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/index.html

I mean, bottom line is, the proof is so clear that Mormonism is NOT what it claims to be (true in any sense of the word 'true'), but an outright danger to individuals, families, and probably society. It is seriously more like a virus than anything - infect a body ('encourage investigators to 'feel the Spirit' '), reproduce as quickly as possible ('every member a missionary'), produce symptoms (generate 10% of every cell's energy/income for the collective - hey, maybe it's more like the Borg from STNG), and never mind the end result - death of the body, just jump from one host (to a potential convert) to another (again, like invite them over for FHE, have the discussions with them, etc.) and repeat ad nauseum.

I would encourage you to look dispassionately at ALL the evidence and go with the Proponderance of Evidence approach - you are the jury, Mormonism is the accused. Look for bias in the witnesses, and for solid, evidence-based fact.

Just my $ .02.

I have indeed read their *entire* response.
It took months.

I can save you a lot of time, though:

For every issue raised, their response follows a similar pattern...

1. Personally malign Jeremy and call him a liar, ignorant, or dishonest.
2. Offer up several "well, it could be this" dodges, not a single one of which has any supporting evidence.
3. Appeal to either "faith," or "when the lord sees fit to give us further knowledge" in an attempt to keep believers believing in spite of not answering the questions or providing any evidence to show Jeremy wrong.

There you go -- their worthless answer to every issue raised.

I did!

I read the whole CES letter, then the whole response (high they keep changing it, so, more accurately, I read the whole FAIR response half a year ago). The response was huge, but I took like three days and read it. It was garbage. They made maybe two or three salient points, and spend a lot of time being dodgy and evasive. Then I read Jeremy's response to their response.

This whole process took about two weeks. Worth it, though---I thought I was fighting for my immortal soul, after all.

sow