Urchdorf would be the best Public relations manager as the leader.He is a German and that would be considered a missionary bonanza to show Germany that they are not so weird after all they would be regarded in Germany.He is a charismatic guy like Hinckley who could be very smooth.

Would or could he become the next leader simply because of his charisma and public relations skill?The traditon is that the longest serving apostle gets the mantle of leadership as ceo and prophet.But the hierarchy would immediately realize Urchdorf would be a better choice.They might think they will become more respected amomg Germans where they a slow to make converts.He would not be regarded as a boring old American.

The quorum of 12 apostles operates by a strange ideology that is supposed to supersede reality. They've used it since the death of Brigham Young, and I think Packer has actually tried to strengthen it.

This ideology is one of fake unanimity within the quorum, essentially that the senior member will never lead the quorum astray. Packer loves it because he's the senior member. If he says something, then everyone else is supposed to agree in turn, even if they think differently.

When Monson dies, they will have a meeting and someone senior will nominate Packer as president. Then they're all supposed to take their cues from the members more senior than them, and all vote in unison for Packer.

I hope that this time they actually have a discussion, maybe even repeated votes. Deferring to the senile ones never really worked, and now they need careful thought, honest discussion, and a fully functioning president more than ever.

lol at the thought of the 15 having an "Honest discussion"

When you consider the increased emphasis of smooth sales and marketing strategies and public relations anxiety,I wonder if they would disregard tradition this time and elevate Urchdorf immediately to the throne.They for surely would realize Urchdorf is a better snake charmer or running he charm offensive.He would be a far better sales person for the church in Germany and Europe.

The church is already dead in the water in all of Europe. Besides, most Europeans don't fall for shit like that the same way Americans do.

I do agree though, I think Uchtdorf would be the best leader of the bunch. But they have their "unwritten order of things", which honestly in codified in the articles of incorporation of the church. According to the articles of incorporation, when Monson dies, the next in line automatically becomes the president of the church and the corporate sole, then later comes the ordination for priesthood/ritual purposes.

Oh please make it Packer. Then let him go full bore crazy.

The Brethren are no longer in day-to-day control of LD$,Inc. That's been evident for a long time. If only we had a Mormon Vasili Mitrokhin (a KGB historian who smuggled out a horde of documents from the KGB archives) we'd know who is actually running the show and where all the bodies are buried.


I remember the expression on Holland's face during the BBC interview. It was obvious he was not used to being asked difficult questions. He lives in an orderly, scripted world. Whatever infighting or actual debate takes place in private behind closed doors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 11:55AM by anybody.

Seniority in office determines the order of succession:

"Seniority among the Apostles is determined not by age but by the date and order of their ordination as Apostles."
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual/chapter-3-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

Most of the Brethren are a bunch of old men in Depends. Not a good situation.

It would make more sense to lock all of the GAs in the Tabernacle and elect a new "Prophet" but that would be a bit too much like the Catholic Church for anti-Popish Mormons.

LD$,Inc. is not going to survive much longer in its present form. There's no vitality left in Mormonism. The mass mission call is evident of this. Having legions of young people go out into the world only to have their faith mocked, endure ridicule, and have doors slammed in their faces so they'll be even more dedicated to LD$, Inc. is not going to work.

Twenty years from now The Church™ (a division of LD$,Inc.) will shrink back to a mostly Utah based institution and will have married LGBT members, shorter Sunday meetings, service oriented missions and younger leaders.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 07:51AM by anybody.

As the LDS is a corporate sole it's my understanding that the most senior apostle, in this case Packer, would automatically (and legally) become the next president/prophet. That little known fact rather knocks the claim of being 'called by god' into a cocked hat.

Exactly! This is what I don't understand how is it that we know right now who the next prophet is as long as he live long enough Packer then if not Perry and so on this is insanity even as a TBM I never understood it called of god my ***

The longest serving becomes profit isn't going to change anytime soon. The older q12 have each put in 30-40 years, promoting the fraud, all with the hope if the can hang in long enough they too could be the kingpin err profit. BKP has 45 years in.

IOW, in the Universe of all ALL possibilities, yes, it is theoretically possible for Urchtdorf to become CEO of The Corp.

put not likely, bcause TSCC painted themself into yet another corner.


the Reasons, the Means-Method, and the Result are One Eternal Round!

Q. Why don't they reveal the text of the 1978 'revelation' regarding Blacks/PH?

A. Because there wasn't one.

Q. Why don't they claim & reveal further revelation?

A. Because there hasn't been any been any.


Apostles/prophets/seers/revelators my fanny.

CEO wanna bees, power-motivated LIARS.

- Let them Claim that they Receive Revelations Directly from God and/or Christ (not needed today for other than announcing temples? Look around at all the human-caused problems)

Hinckley THOUGHT he was Mr. Smooth, but that was another LDS Failure

God decided when he put each of the monkeys into the quorum. He knows what he's doing so he obviously WANTS 90-year-old geezers with dimentia to be the profit and not a charismatic PR guy.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual/chapter-3-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

The way of choosing the senior apostle to be the President is
God's way because the Twelve said so.

The Twelve tell God who His prophet is.

This is in accordance with a long-time, well-established
procedure that dates back to ancient times.

This is how Biblical prophets were chosen, right? I don't have
my Bible with me right now, but I'm sure it's in there, right?
And if it's not there it has to be in the Book of Mormon (which
has the fulness of the gospel), right? Or at least in the D&C,
which has all kinds of doctrines on the details of Church
procedure. The scriptures wouldn't be silent on how the
Prophet is chosen would they?

Of course not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 11:41AM by baura.

I suspect that it will involve a massive power play, this time. And no matter who is given the job in name, there will be a ruling clique calling all of the shots behind the scenes.

If seniority is not strictly followed, there will be only a small step, not a long reach down into the fifteen. Oaks is more probable as it is easily explained with a hoopla for Packer "declining" to save face. Once a precedent is set, at a later time we can expect some apostles to take emeritus status and the entire process changed so that one can even get a "prophet" from the ranks of GAs or even beyond on the basis of "revelation".

In short..No. The corporate bylaws and tradition clearly recognizes that the next President will be the current Pres of Q of 12 Apostles after the 1st pres is dissolved and the old foggies shuffle their feet back to the meeting room. A sustaining vote might take place (just to say that had one) and unless, fellow Apostles find lube and a dildo in Boyd's briefcase with various sexy DVDs (cause for reconsideration) everyone Apostle knows Boyd K. Packer is next.

Please forgive my grammar errors.

We are not phazed.

Finding porn and a dildo may not even change things. Reading between the lines, I think that just about everyone on the Big 15 knew or believed that Spencer Kimball was full on gay, with the possible exception of Spencer Kimball who may have been in a bit of denial about the thing. They still made him prophet anyways.

Current ordained apostles, listed by seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve
http://www.ldsfacts.net/apostle1.htm

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/succession-in-the-presidency-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

It's an interesting theory. Traditionally, the young guys just went along with things the way they have always been done. However, since the google revolution, one has to wonder how many guys in the top are actually true believers. You could actually see a number of apostles, not just the young guys, but probably mostly them, decide that Packer is totally the wrong choice, and either hold things up until Packer is dead, or push someone else to the front. The members would then be given a big story, about how, after receiving revelation, they broke with tradition.

I don't see it happening though. I do see the possibility of a couple of holdouts refusing to sustain Packer for a few months and years, and if memory serves, hasn't there been times in the church history where they went without a first presidency for extended periods of time?

At the very least, the church's history is full of old dudes who sat in the big chair, and then got ignored by the younger kids. GBH was the defacto leader of the church for much of the 80s, and even possibly part of the 70s, while Kimball and Benson were too old and senile to do anything.

Uchtdorf will only be prophet if he outlives Holland. Here's why:

1. The line of seniority will not be breached. The longest serving apostle will succeed to the presidency of the church. That will not change. That means when Monson dies, BKP will succeed to the Presidency if he's still alive.

2. Both Holland and Uchtdorf are 74 years old right now. Holland is 9th in seniority, Uchtdorf is 11th. Everyone ahead of Holland in seniority is well into their 80s, and odds are that Holland will end up being the next long-term president as a result, because any others who may succeed Monson will likely be short-termers themselves due to advanced age.

3. Eyring is 10th in seniority between Holland and Uchtdorf. He's almost 82 now, and due to advancing age he will never serve as prophet with nine others ahead of him.

4. During the theoretical long term Holland presidency, Dieter will also age. If he outlives Holland he will be prophet only for a short period of time, unless Holland dies relatively young.

5. If anyone in the line of succession dies unexpectedly at a relatively young age (like Harold B Lee), or if a whole bunch of them die in short succession, it could change the dynamic significantly.

6. The dynamic may also change if someone manages to serve beyond their 97th birth day (like Hinckley, McKay, and JF Smith), because some number of those who are younger will expire in the meantime.

Uchtdorf will continue to be used as a Counselor to the FP through a number of First Presidencies because he tends to put such a positive face on all of it--speaks well, not too extreme, good looking, etc. A lot like Hinckley except for the good looking part. He may well have the opportunity to moderate an extreme BKP.

and agree.

I would bet on Uchtdorf outliving Holland. He just seems much healthier!

Given the ages of the church's apostles, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of deaths happen one on top of the other. Some surprises in the succession and leadership could result.

"Hinckley who could be very smooth." - the Hinkster SMOOTH? I don't see that at all. His foot was in his mouth 90% of the time. What is smooth about that? YOu are talking the same Hinkster of Jesus Smith fame right? The MORON Hinkster?

I think the CULT deserves the Nazi as the next leader. He has a lot of the same qualities as some of the leading Nazis so that will help the CULT up to a point. As everyone knows, eventually the Nazis certainly did nothing to make the world like Germany, but whatever....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 04:59PM by verilyverily.

They should promote a woman. She'd NEVER be guilty of speaking "as a man".

We know the figureheads, which will remain constant.

We do not know the power players behind the scenes.

It takes a lot to run an empire, and it cannot be done by the senile.

Too bad it wasn't like the Catholic Church. They could hold their conclave in the SLC temple. If no prophet was picked, white smoke would come out Moroni's horn, and when there was a new prophet, black smoke would come out his ass. I'm certain the news media would show up for that.

and remove Packer and the rest of the senior leadership. They'll all suddenly be given "emeritus" status. Uchtdorf will be the next in line. At least that's how they'd do it on "Game of Thrones." No, I'm wrong about that. They would have a meeting, Uchtdorf and the younger guys would step out, the SCMC would walk in and Packer and the rest of the old bunch would be killed and their heads put on pikes on the spires of the Temple for all to see...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2015 06:57PM by anybody.

Suffice whoever succeeds Monson will be a highly political move, all 'prophecy' aside.

Aren't the "ones" selected usually in the order to succeed such as in the first presidency - normally?

It isn't prophetic at all. But follows a right of succession.

In politics it's called "Groupthink." They just agree to agree.

It's neither prophetic nor inspiring.