No Free Will. Every thing is Pre destination?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g&feature=youtu.be

This was discussed in on an episodes on Infants on Thrones
http://infantsonthrones.com/

This has been bothering me for the last 48 hours and I don't know why? Is it because I'm afraid Sam Harris might be right? I can't accept this philosophy no matter how hard I try. No free will. No reward or punishment. No way to choose my beliefs? No way for evolution survival of the fittest by choices; but rather by random influences of atoms and molecules? No observer or choices made can direct how the cause and effect my life or any one else's life turns out.

I just CAN NOT accept this. Yet I can't come up with a logical or reasonable explanation for it being wrong. I just know that it is. But why? To me Freedom of will, Freedom of choice, Cause and Effect, Reward/Punishment is all ingrained into my mind and brain and I can't shake it. It's in nature. It's in our society. It's in evolution. Isn't it???

Is Sam right? Is predestination correct. Is there no free will? Do I have no choice over my beliefs? As the guys of "Infants on Thrones" point out, Richard Bushman states, that he chooses to believe in a world where Joseph Smith is a prophet. Yet Richard Bushman is smarter and has more information than I will ever have, yet he chooses to believe in this? because he has no choice in his beliefs? I have no choice in my beliefs? Wow!!!

So, some member cannot believe that the church could ever do anything wrong. No matter what evidence or proofs or actions are presented to them. Yet my belief would have to change because of those same proofs, evidence, actions because my brain was wired to be predetermined to that belief.

I don't like this philosophy at all. I don't know why and I can't find the logical reason why it's wrong; I just know for me it is.

It is an interesting concept that Harris raises. Unfortunately, it is either true or not true regardless of if you like it or not. It bothered me for a while,then I realized that there is currently no way to predict what I will think from moment to moment, so as far as I am concerned, I appear to have free will. That is good enough for me.

Mom hates calvinism because it makes her feel like what's the use? Of anything.

Harris has obviously been meditating a lot. His musings in this video reflect the type of insights people have when they transform their consciousness by observing the sources and true nature of thoughts. However, his discourse strikes me as someone still in the infant stages of discovering the knowledge hidden within the ancient Vedic traditions. Commenting, in the way that he does, on these ‘thoughts’, which ramble on endlessly within ones own mind, is merely an elementary observation on the subject of consciousness. He doesn’t seem aware of the notion that these random, uncontrolled thoughts are just an aberration of the untrained mind. His whole speech, while on the right track, seems rather like the initial discoveries of a person only just beginning to scratch the surface of a study already thoroughly explored and understood quite well by the ancient yogi’s of the east. Change your thoughts, and you can change your world. (He seemed to overlook this in his discussion.)

His assertions regarding a ‘compassionate outlook’ are the natural result of the change in consciousness (one now observed by scientists in structural changes to the brain) that one obtains through the control and suppression of the rambling ego mind. (The ego attached mind is the source of these uncontrolled thoughts, like a drunk that can’t control his drinking (his thinking). This mind can be brought under control through yogic practices, producing an entirely different state of mind, one quite foreign to western thinkers (especially scientists), where it is assumed everyone’s mind operates like theirs does, simply because most western peoples undisciplined minds do in fact operate very much like theirs does.)

Anyway, I found nothing new, nor did I find anything to dispute, in Harris’s ‘discovery’ of the nature of thought. In fact, it seemed quite elementary, and merely a good step in the right direction, in comparison to what Vedic philosophy has already observed about the mind and consciousness for thousands of years. This Vedic knowledge of the mind and its inner workings has been around since before Abraham, and even before the great pyramids were built. It’s only us western thinkers who, in our arrogance, think we are the seat of the greatest intellectual achievements regarding consciousness (and everything else). Harris’s epiphany is just the rediscovery of a truth that’s already been long understood, and taken even further (much further) by others before him. I hope he keeps exploring yogic philosophy, as it seems to be having the desired effect on him. Maybe he’ll get there yet.

I did like this video; he is onto something. I just wish we westerners didn’t feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Vedic philosophy had this all figured out since before ten thousand years ago. How dumb are we? Not dumb, just addicted to our ego-minded predilection for our attachment to materialism (with a little arrogance thrown in to keep us transfixed, as does happen when people are gripped by the clutches of their irrational ego-mind … egocentricity is so self convincing).

Truth lies in the intuition, not in the illusions of the ramblings of unbridled thought. Reason, as even the Ancient Egyptians fully understood, is a sickness. The Romans didn’t understand this, and became very ill indeed. Thankfully, Vedic philosophies give us a pill to cure this affliction of mind. But, while this muddy vesture of decay doth wrap us ‘round; our nature cannot (or will not) hear it. Too bad … at least Harris seems like he’s finally starting to get it; I hope he takes his enlightenment even further.

Those are some of my thoughts on it. Thanks for linking this video.

I don't know about Vedic philosophy, but I doubt that it discards the non-physical nature of thought the way that Harris does. I tend to reject the typical eastern philosophy notions of transcendent thought, as if existence in any form continues beyond our brain. I like the statement by Harris that "everything that happens, happens in the brain."

This feeling that our transcendent thoughts are evidence of existence beyond our physical world is now an untenable notion. The portions of the brain that produce these feelings can be identified and manipulated. Damage to these portions of the brain result in the absence of these sensations. This is real world proof that the sensation itself is not evidence of anything but a sensation.

As for free will, I accept Harris's conclusions more than Dennet's suggestions simply because Dennet has to assume some critical premises to rest on his argument. I think the simplest explanation is the most likely, and Harris provides the simplest explanation.

Our sense of free will is a nice notion, and we are indeed the agents of our choices and therefore fully accountable, but the real revelation here is that accountability can be more accurately assigned to real sources rather than making humans evil. There is room for a justice system and incarceration, but there is less room for harsh punishments like capital punishments.

In fact, this view actually expands my sense of justice and empathy for others. I think rather than ruin my sense of purpose, it instructs my sense of purposeful change through visualization and directed thinking.

>> In fact, this view actually expands my sense of justice and empathy for others. I think rather than ruin my sense of purpose, it instructs my sense of purposeful change through visualization and directed thinking. <<


Exactly, this is similar to concepts put forth by the Vedic knowledge I was referring to. And they didn't just recognize this and observe mental abberation; they had a system for altering these functions within the mind, and for correcting aberrant mental processes. It's from them, after all, who we in the west have adopted our own modern ideas of visualization.

Regarding an external or internal source of consciousness, that's neither here nor there. The sources of Vedic knowledge saw a problem arising out of natural mental thought processes, and gave us a solution for this problem that works. Even the effects of a troubled childhood, as Harris spoke of, can be corrected by such techniques. I wish Harris had taken it even further and spoken to that too, or maybe he has yet to discover this for himself (for now).

I agree with your post, saul. But I still maintain that this sort of scientific observation of mental functioning has been made before. The ancient Vedic texts were much more interested in a practical solution to our problems, similar to the impetus behind our modern science, than they were with explaining some sort of ‘religion of origin’. They merely devised a practical system that achieved good, practical results, through a series of various practiced techniques.

But, if someone like Harris needs to rediscover this for us westerners, and needs to credit himself, or science, in order for westerners to adopt it these ideas, then so be it. As long as the end is reached, I suppose that’s all that matters. I think he’s wrong, though, to discount where his thoughts arise from. Anyone who empties the mind and arrives at stillness, while accepting their circumstances without attachment, comes to the exact same conclusions Harris has. It’s happened over and over again, to many people before him.

I wonder; if he keeps on going, will people just start ignoring him too? Seems like that's sort of already started, as he’s getting a little ‘out there’ lately with his transcendental exploration. If he keeps it up he’ll wind up quite the freak, at least from a westerners point of view. LOL. He should remember to keep it on the down low, and keep presenting it as modern science … then people will listen. I wonder if that’s how he’ll play it?

Of course humans aren’t evil. They are just confused, that’s all. But we have tools; we just need to remember where we dropped them, and to stop staring off into space, and instead start using these tools to heal our minds and our societies.

Well!!! .... at least this is quieting the gnawing... I haven't studied eastern philosophy enough to understand or dwell into these concepts, but at least it's a logical jumping board for me to look into.

Yet transcendental meditation seems too much like spiritual new ageism and "The Secret" to me.

Thank you for some studies that I can at least look into.

The secret? What a silly book that was, it just pandered to peoples ego’s of riches and escaping the human condition. It was a red herring of sorts, and kind of missed the point.

Transcendental meditation? Well, just forget about the transcendental part of it. The key is quieting the mind, and reducing all those random thoughts that Harris alluded to in his talk. Those thoughts really are a distraction, worse than listening to the fear mongering Mormon prophets. Those undisciplined thoughts can be a real bummer … did I lock my car, what if it gets stolen, what if I lose my job, what if I can’t retire, what if, what if, what if … what if the mind just shut up for a change!

Discipline those thoughts, and learn to be very conscious of what thoughts you do allow into your mind … and it can be a whole new world. Just don’t take anything to such an extreme that it wrecks, or over overtakes your life, though. However, if you did look into the benefits of traditional meditation, you might just find it helpful.

Don’t look for beliefs … try things out for yourself and look for results. Maybe you won’t find results, but then again, maybe you will. It's all about creating a positive, compassionate mind. That seems to be where Harris was going with his insights.