It just hit me how that scripture makes no sense, and the more you think about it, the less sense it makes. Whatever your definition of "grace," in a religious context or any other, there can't be any "grace" in your life, if you are constantly worried about whether or not you have done "all that you can do."

Here's what I mean by grace: "Grace: A relative lack of anxiety and/or emotional struggle, i.e., not sweating bullets, not shitting bricks." In the religious context, if "God" or "The Savior" or some other supernatural being pays for your "sins," then you don't have to sweat it; Jesus has got that "sin" thing covered. Just relax.

And what the hell is being "saved?" There must be a gazillion different theological definitions floating around, and it's not even clear to me if Mormonism EVER EVEN DEFINED IT, which is another thing making my brain hurt.

"...after all that you can do."??? How does anybody ever know if they have done all that they can do?

I am 52 years old, have been clean out of the MORG for 21 years, and I still am haunted in the evenings, when I am dog tired, by the thought I HAVE NOT DONE ENOUGH TODAY. I wish I could be free from that thought. There is a rare evening in which I am free from it, but there are still times when I am not.

So now you get the picture. Throughout my youth and into my adult life, I was one of those people who never was sure if I was "worthy." And as I mentioned, there is a form of this "worthiness anxiety" that often haunts me today. Maybe that's not how it is for everybody, but for me, this scripture is a total mind fuck.

I got real clear about this today, while listening to a podcast, so, credit where credit is due: Infants on Thrones. And their parody of the CES fireside is really funny too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2015 05:52PM by metatron.

I like the Church of the SubGenius, where you achieve a state of Slack.

metatron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what the hell is being "saved?" There must be
> a gazillion different theological definitions
> floating around

Yeah—the whole concept of being “saved” to me is just nonsense. What am I being “saved” from? A fallen state that god put me into? Violation of commandments that god made up? So, I’m supposed to accept that god created a bunch of people, had them born into a born into a fallen world, made up a bunch of rules, and the only way we can escape being cut off forever is to murder his son, and somehow accept his “gift.”

That is bat…..excrement crazy. The BoM takes this crazy concept and makes it even crazier by requiring that we do “all you can do.”

Even though the Christian view is, on its face ridiculous, the OP has come to the ultimate realization of why Christians don't accept the mormon Jesus or the mormon "gospel". It makes even less sense than the christian one.

It took me some time to recognize and understand what grace truly meant to Christians and why Mormonism is so offensive to them. Once I got past that point and studied Christianity more, the more I find it has its own absurdities.

I have moved to being agnostic with mild Christian leanings and ethics. I also have no problem with there being an apathetic God, if such a person or thing exists.

Grace to a non-Mormon Christian means that after a lifetime of sin, you can accept Jesus on your deathbed and be good to go. It's essentially a free pass to heaven. There are two positive aspects to this concept of grace -- a) you assume that you are going to heaven and are therefore unworried about it, and b) there is no sense of spiritual one-upmanship with other people since you all get the free pass. It lends itself to humility.

From my discussions with many Christians, that isn't really how they would "define" grace. I would see what you have written as an example of a kind "loophole" in that belief. Your simplification of grace is how I solely viewed it when I was a believing Mormon, and it took a few years to undo that mentality. Christians see grace as a gift that can't be earned (hence it being a gift). The only requirement of it is belief. Once the step of belief has been achieved, then ones works are an outward expression of that belief. But these works do not guarantee ones place in heaven. This is why Mormonism is so offensive to Christians because the Mormon atonement belittles Christs actual atonement and purpose and gift.

Also, non-Mormon Christians are just Christians.

I don't see anything in what you said that negates what I said. You added on to it, and I agree with what you stated. Grace is a free gift to Christians; all a person has to do is to accept Jesus as their savior. The idea that they would have to "earn" their way into heaven would be anathema to them.

Here's my problem with this...We are commanded to be perfect are we not? So we can always do more until we reach perfection. Once we've reached perfection, why would Christ's grace be needed?

1. It is Mormons who believe we are called to be "perfect" and we must do all we can do to attain perfection. This, of course, is impossible. Nor does anyone do "all he can do".
2. To a Christian, one is made perfect through the atonement. One is clothed and made perfect in Christ.
3. In answer to another post: a deathbed confession of faith would have to be real rather than used as an out. Most Christians feel there is some loss by waiting.

I wouldn't let anyone go to jail for me if I screwed up, let alone get crucified. I don't remember voting on this.

I know I didn't vote on it, either.

Look up P.T. Barnum (July 5, 1810 – April 7, 1891) an note the similarities between him and Joseph. It's eerie.

Grace? Accept and love yourself. That's grace. The circus tent and the popcorn and show rings and faint smell of elephant pee is fine for a while. But it's perfectly okay to leave the tent.

Edit: Um, sorry. P.T. Barnum made good in later years and was at least honest about primarily being a showman.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2015 03:46PM by bradley.

Metatron, you've got it. Now you just rest in it.