Once, a friend of mine who was homofobic, was asked by another friend if he ever thought thay maybe he was so concerned about not dealing with gay people because he had some of gay in him... He changed his mind after that.
Is it possible that TSCC is so worry about this topic because they think that there are so many closeted members and once they accept everyone, there is going to be like a wave of members coming out of the closet?

I think the church is finally realizing just how many members are gays. What I don't think they understand, is the same thing that conservatives often don't get. Gays do not exist in a bubble. I once heard Rush Limbaugh complaining about how two thirds of the country was Christian, and how only two or three percent was gay (I think it is closer to five) so he didn't understand why gay rights was progressing. What he failed to understand is that every gay man and woman has straight friends, and family who love them, and want to see them happy, more than they want to please an invisible being, whose book they don't really don't care about as much as they claim. As people begin to see gays as their brothers, sisters, sons and daughters, and not simply as perverts, they are going to file the anti-gay portions of the bible with the stuff that is pro-slavery, or calls for the subjugation of woman, as the part they realize is just nonsense.

Nice comment. Thanks

I appreciate forbiddencokedrinker's comments very much.

Yours is an interesting take Godzilla that scratches the surface of a larger problem for some.

I think there are some very unhealthy egos on the line here. For example:

How is Oaks supposed to reconcile that he was president of BYU while I was there in the early seventies and he was part of the vile electroshock program? If he says gays are okay now, how does he justify what he was part of back then and has been part of ever since with his part in the Mormon bigoted front on gays? He loses face and he knows it. He is painted into a corner. He sees his only hope as being his claims that his religious rights have been eroded, which, of course, is ridiculous and as a lawyer he should know better.

Same for BKP and the others. They have been poisonously vocal and so at this point any acceptance at all of the normalcy of gay people makes their legacy an ugly joke. They lose their reputations and their reputations are their drugs.

And that is why they will fight for their bigoted ways to the end. That is why Holland will speak in California trying to spread the bigotry even though some press has already seen through the ruse.

These men have everything at stake. They live for the adulation. They will do anything to stop it from being ripped from them now. And as you say, they know very well how many Mormon men out there are closet cases.

Totally this.

The church no longer has the luxury of waiting for the old guard to die off before changing its position. If they wait, they'll be irrelevant as they lose the youth. If they cave, they lose the baby boomers.

Some of the 15 who made horrible statements will likely still be alive when the change inevitably comes.

They REALLY picked the wrong fight... Not very prophetic.

"Not very prophetic." Ha ha. Exactly.

I was going to say, those guys wouldn't know truth or even decency if it bit them on the ass--which it is right now, and they still WON'T see it.

But the sad truth is, there is every possibility that they probably do see the truth. They are just choosing to ignore it in favor of their own selfish ends.

I don't know that the bretheren can go back on what they've said and be taken seriously. Look at the whole "we don't teach racism anymore", and "past prophets said bad things we don't believe anymore," doctrine. Is anyone impressed with the current backpeddling of the fence sitter doctrine?

The bible is pretty clear on the subject. (It's pretty clear on a variety of subjects) And it never changes. Science does change however, and so do scholars opinions.

What do you think the percentage of gay is in the general population? How about the LDS?

From my perspective, I'd say it is a lot more than 5%.

I don't know. I think its the hardest thing ever to get an accurate figure on because, well . . .obvious. So many won't say. The amount of gays did seem disproportionately high when I was at BYU, I must say.

Whether it's true or not, I think it would be fun to promote that theory that the Mormons have a higher percentage of the gays and then promote the theory that not drinking coffee increases the chances of having gay children. What a conundrum for the TBMs that would be, huh?

The new studies showing coffee reducing the risk of diabetes, alzheimers, prostrate cancer and a few other things hasn't been enough to get the Mormons brewing the beans. But reducing the risk of having a gay child could get those bigoted TBMs racing to Starbucks. What do you think?

Listen to Mormon Stories Podcast #191 Bill Bradshaw: Biological origins of homosexuality.

He is a BYU Professor who has done research with a Nobel Prize winner. He thinks the brethren should learn some current science/accept everyone.

He cites international studies regarding large families and homosexual children.

He debunks the Mormon statement that both identical twins should be gay if one twin is gay/if not it isn't biological.

Interesting findings of 2nd born sons, left handed vs right handed...

(If Mormons are homophobic, they will cut back on large families.) :)

In reply to Ex-sinful-shoulders--

I found it very interesting in my situation that the leaders told me NOT to talk to my parents about my husband being gay (before or after marrying him).

When I told my parents he was leaving me, my dad said, "I figured out he is gay a few years ago. You didn't marry him knowing he is gay, did you?" I didn't answer him for at least 15 years. But that day, my dad told me (and my dad could be very bigoted), "THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY." His education was in biology.

Imagine the mess they would create if they back down? They had a big enough backlash over giving blacks the priesthood. I wonder what would happen if they changed their teachings on gays. I don't see it happening in my lifetime.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 09:57AM by cl2.

I hope they are forced to change policy within the next five years, based on science. In turn, I hope that opens a door for lawsuits from people in your circumstances, and the LGTB community for electrocution at BYU, suicides, discrimination...

Lives were and are continued to be ruined by the archaic rules from SLC. The church needs to be publicly shamed for their "religious freedom" stance.

Utah fast food, "Do you want religious freedom fries with that order?"

I heard it's as high as 30% to a noticeable degree. 10% to an uncomfortable level. And 3% that really just don't like the opposite sex at all.

Thank you all for the comments. I am not gay but I do appreciate my gay and lesbian friends and coworkers, I admire the many gay talented people in the media an other professions, and I surely do love anyone in my family. Thanks

I can't imagine that the Black Suits, being married and having kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, have not experienced having a close family member who is gay. Perhaps, how they deal with it is just not deal with it - ignore it, say it is not real, and then it leaves their mind.

I heartfully agree that to these people their reputation, their accolades from all of their admirers are their, as was posted above, their "drug". Can you imagine everywhere you go people oo-ing and ah-ing over your every move and wanting your opinion on this and that?

The church/cult's position on what a family consists of and that, if you're gay, and you break this paradigm, is very black and white. The number of people that have dealt with tragedy, even deaths, because of the church's position is huge and heart-wrenching. But they have and do ignore this.

Says a lot about what is important to them, doesn't it?

I was filled with such a raging anger when Prop 8 was passed, thanks in a large measure to the efforts of the Mormons in California and throughout the country throwing their money and volunteer hours at it. How dare they? I especially felt hurt that this came from the church that had thrown me out for being the big lesbian I am years before. And you know what? It pissed off a whole generation of gays and lesbians. "The gay agenda" was always such a massive joke to the gay community, because everyone was so apathetic, you could barely convince anyone to go vote. After Prop 8, everyone got off their lavender backsides and got motivated. And so did everyone who knows and loves someone who is gay. And you know what? We won. Prop 8 was overturned and, what is it? 36? states now have marriage equality? Thanks for slingshotting that forward, Mormons. Sometime this summer, I expect SCOTUS to make this a done deal for the whole country. And the rash of ridiculous laws legalizing discrimination against LGBT's working their way through state legislatures right now? I expect that will make that a strict scrutiny ruling. So keep right up with that.

Excellent take on where the gay people were coming from on all of this. I always laughed when I heard about the gay agenda because we all had no idea we had one until the religious right informed us we did and then were gracious enough to define it for us.

Everybody I knew had one agenda: Find a lover, a partner, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, and live happily ever after. Some even wanted a successful career. What a threat to humanity!

Now we have one: Equal rights. Apparently another great threat to all of mankind.

I had been telling people for years how homophobic Mormons were. They dismissed it because I'd been Mormon, so they thought I was too focused on my own background.

Prop 8 got gays and gay advocates to see exactly how far Mormons would go to put gay people down. My gay friends said they didn't see it coming, but I had been telling them how hostile Mormons were.

The backlash to LDS, Inc. has lasted a lot longer than Prop 8. Oaks and Holland are still smarting to the backlash, including it in their list of grievances in 2015. LDS, Inc. won the day, but they lost a lot of credibility and reinforced their image as a bunch of smiling white bigots.