I feel this whole "disclosure" thing is moving forward.

That's the word you guys use at Wildflowers? (I haven't posted yet but I'm reading). I have an idea and I want to get your input.

I want to write my husband a letter. Every attempt I've ever made to get him to admit that he's gay has ended up in a screaming match. I can't get my point across or help him see the patterns in his behavior that make me think he's gay. I want him to understand that the fundamental problem in our marriage isn't my bi-polar disorder (stabilized and well managed) or that I'm stupid or that I'm physically revolting. I want him to see the elephant in the room that we never acknowledge, never discuss, and that we never admit is there.

I feel great compassion for him despite the horrible things he's said and done to me. When I look at things with detachment I can see that he is a product of his religious upbringing. He can't help it.

No judgment here...I have never, ever had any problem with homosexuality AT ALL. I was heavily involved in theater for years when I was young and there were a whooooole lotta gay men in my life. I loved them - sometimes for real - as a couple ended up as boyfriends before they came out. Honestly, I wish he could understand that if he came totally clean with me all of the tension in our relationship would completely vanish. We could just be best friends (like you and your ex) and live happily ever after, either together or separately. No more drama.

But I know you can't "force" a confession from anybody - especially from someone who can't even admit to themselves that they are gay. But I *need* to understand what has happened in our marriage so I can make rational choices in my life right now. And I'm not just saying that to be all dramatic. We have critical decisions to make about where we will be living in a few months. (He's in a long-term hospitalization right now and our house is in foreclosure). Will we all end up together or do I need to start preparing for two households when he's released? Who will take care of him when he gets out? I am no longer willing to be his caregiver when he is so hostile and verbally abusive to me simply because I'm the wrong gender.

I can see staying with him if he'd just, for God's sake, quit hating me because I'm female. The pressure is off. I don't care about the sex anymore and he's given me total permission to go elsewhere (not that I'd actually do it but it's good for me mentally to know that option is there). We started out with a lot of love and a lot of laughter - the first three years of our marriage were great even though the sex was a bit "off." I'd like to get back to that place (without the sex, obviously). He's not a horrible person although everything I write about him is horrible. He's just the victim of biology clashing with a religious cult.

If I could just get him to understand all of this, our lives would be so much easier. I would honor whatever decisions he needs to make if he'd just come clean. Bonnie Kaye says, "Life should not be this complicated. Period." That is true. I may never get the "disclosure" I so desperately crave and I know I may very well have to make tremendous life-altering decisions for my whole family all by myself...but I feel I need to make one great, final overture to clear the air.

So I'm writing a letter - email actually. He's in the hospital for months and his little laptop is his best friend right now. He'll read it. He won't be able to help himself. And the brilliance of my plan is that he's a captive audience. There's a measure of safety in not doing this whole thing face to face. Things can't escalate quickly to screaming. There is time to ponder the messages back and forth before replying. If a discussion really begins, I can provide links for him to read to help him understand what has happened to him as a gay man in Mormonism. Oh wow! I just a had a lightbulb moment. Maybe the whole damn RfM board could help this poor, suffering man come out!!!!!!

Or . . . maybe he'll just delete me. Eek!

So what are your thoughts?

Shannon ;o)

Shannon, you can only teach when the student is ready. Readiness can't be forced. I would let it go. Your husband is dealing with other issues right now. I would not add to his load. He will deal with it, or not deal with it, in his own time.

Until then, pursue what is in your own best interests. Personally, I wouldn't want to be around someone long term who hates me because I'm a female.

Let's assume your husband is gay. He has spent his entire life hiding in the closet, to the point of marrying a woman to keep up the charade. You really think he is going to open up and come out because you are shouting at him and calling him out?

Take care of yourself. Tell him you want marriage counseling. Go yourself if he won't go. Encourage him to get individual counseling, just as you are doing. Tell him you are struggling to stay married and need support.

Besides threatening his sexual identity, you are telling him the problems in your marriage are all his fault. Even if that were 100% true, and it never is 100% one person's fault, he doesn't want to hear that. Try to solve your problems together.

He may not be gay. Just because you did theatre doesn't mean your gaydar is 100%. He may be bisexual. It doesn't matter, because it's not your problem. You need to work on your side of things and hope he will come around. If he doesn't, that's his decision and not yours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2015 11:08AM by axeldc.

I agree. If you're not 100% sure, any accusations in discussion or letters are going to come across as insensitive...possibly abusive. Why not discuss the issues in your marriage and suggest counseling without trying to force him to come out?

I knew somebody would call me out on the gaydar thing. He was sexually active with men (and women) in his late teens and 20's. He was excommunicated for it just before his mission.

I'm not imagining the multiple same-sex experiences. He told me about them (small admissions that trickled out over the years). He always framed it as youthful experimentation - he tried it but didn't like it. I wasn't well-educated about gay orientation 20 or 30 years ago (were any of us?) even though I accepted it. I really believed you could turn it off like a light switch if you wanted to.

Oh, and I hate stereotypes as much as anybody. I know that "swishiness" doesn't mean they are gay (but stereotypes sometimes are based on real traits). Anyway, another factor in all of this is that he most definitely does not come off as "gay" to anybody. Ever. He is very masculine - he was a star football player at a Morridor High School that won the AAA state football championships back in the '70's.

He had a football scholarship lined up for BYU but injured his neck while playing and was unable to play college ball. So there's that.

His coming out or not coming out doesn't really impact you. You need to work on your marriage, or work on moving away from it. His sexuality is his personal demon. Unless he asks for help, you can't do anything.

Wow, Shannon. This is very brave and bold of you. I cannot imagine how you have dealt with this knowledge for as long as you have. My own disclosure experience was completely different from yours and I nearly didn't survive it. You are one strong person to actually try to initiate his disclosure. Good Luck!

As a gay man, married and with five children, I would say there is a strong chance that he will suicide. Are you ready for that?

I grew up TBM. Didn't really understand the gay thing. I thought everyone was programmed like me. I went on a mission. I was a very straight arrow in all respects. I came home. Got married within the prescribed time to an amazing woman (I wouldn't know how amazing for several years). Still thought everyone was programmed like me. Started popping out children. Had five before I thirty.

At twenty six, I realized two things. One the church was a hoax and two, that I was what everyone called "gay" and had been since I was born but was eight years old when I first realized my interest in men. At the end of my teen years, I began to realize my interest in men was more than what other guys were experiencing. I became suicidal. Tried it once but chickened out. Then the mission, etc... Suicide was constantly in the fore front of my mind. At thirty, I told my wife I would check out permanently - I was broken and it couldn't be fixed. It was not fair to her to be married to a gay man. She begged me not to do it. Very emotional time. Bottom line was that I had five wonderful kids I could not leave. I did not want the suicide legacy for them. I stayed and was the best damn dad I knew how to be.

My wife and I eventually were able to work things out. She is the most caring loving person I know. I love her even though I am not physically attracted to her. We have now been married 44 years. It's been intense at times. Yes, there were the times of yelling and screaming. They all came from fear. Mine and hers. Life has been an explosive learning and expanding experience for us both. Still, at this time, I have to say I wouldn't be who I am or where I am had I not been on this journey.

The "gay" world judge me harshly for not at least divorcing and following my proclivities. The straight world pities my wife and shakes their heads that she has such a burden as a gay husband. So be it. We neither are ashamed of where we are or what we are. We love our children and each other. We will remain married and enjoy the time we have left.

I would caution you to not "box" your husband in. He has to work through his issues as he can. Please continue to be patient and loving toward him. He isn't at a place that he can understand right now. He may never be but you can have a good life with him and find fun things to do with him. Let the "gay" thing rest for now. When it's time, it will all work out. Just love him as a human and understand he truly is doing the best he can for now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2015 11:18AM by dejavue.

I have had 3 gay male friends commit suicide because they couldn't handle coming out. One was Stuart Matis, who shot himself on the steps of an LDS chapel.

Another was a guy from my mission. He was married with kids and came out. His wife was vicious to him, cutting him off from his kids. They lived near her family, and they all turned on him. He killed himself over the loss of his family. Even after he died, her family tried to shame anyone who sympathized with him, calling his homosexuality the family shame.

Coming out is not for the faint of heart. Marital problems are tough in the best of circumstances. Combine that with coming out and you have a recipe for disaster, especially in the context of the hostile LDS Church.

Hear! Hear! This is what individuality is all about. There is not one way to live. Also, one does not have to live an authentic life alone. People can develop authenticity as a couple, maybe even as a society (I hope so). It's not easy, and it's not predetermined. But this is an example of how it's possible. It's not everyone's cup of tea, nor does it have to be.

No I'm not ready for him to kill himself. I didn't even think about it. I'm so caught up in my own pain and my own suicidal ideation, it never occured to me that he might want to kill himself, too. Even without the gay thing, the losses that he's experienced the past year would make anyone feel like commiting suicide. You're really scaring me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2015 12:43PM by shannon.

How can someone be gay with 5 children. Sounds more like bi? anyway...

To: Poopstone:I had 4 children with my gay ex husband. I only found out he was gay in year 22 of our marriage. The children were born in the first 6 years of marriage with a surprise baby in year 12.

Accepting his sexuality isn't something you can force on him. Sounds like you have tried to talk about it before, and he clearly isn't interested. All you can do is accept yourself where you are, and do what is right for you. I also agree that pushing this might push him over the edge... As a gay person, you can't understand the terrifying fear of someone outing you....

First, it's not your job to make hime come out. Second, whether he is gay, straight, or other, your marriage obviously has big problems. cl2 and I both managed to maintain friendships with our gay exes, but (speaking for myself) it did not happen by bullying, tricking, or otherwise manipulating. We gave each other the space and respect to work things out as we were ready and able. We then chose to divorce because it made sense for us. We had no children, so things were simpler that way.

If things are bad, and you are no longer willing to continue, you can figure out a compromise or an exit plan. What you cannot do is force him into being or acting the way you want. Seriously. Even if he came out and declared that he is as gay as the day is long right now, it would NOT solve your problems. I promise. It might make things more clear, but it would do nothing to solve your underlying problems.

Accept who and what he is. Accept the situation for what it is. You cannot change it. Just because some of us manage to maintain friendships during or after a mixed-orientation marriage does not mean you will necessarily be able to do the same. Every relationship is different.


This is a terribly painful situation, and my heart goes out to you.

As someone who's recently gone through a divorce under the best of circumstances (really), I would say I'm skeptical that anyone can separate and divorce and have the same relationship. Ask me 5 years from now, but where I'm at now I don't think it's possible.

Can people be civil and polite? Yes. Can they be co-parents and put their kids first? Yes. Can they emotionally support one another like they did while they were married? Maybe. I think that's incredibly rare. The nature of the financial and emotional consequences of divorce make me skepticAl.

That doesn't make it the right option in some cases ( like mine).

As someone who tried to fix a marriage for a long time, only you know what will work for you. I recommend not doing anything impulsive, but researching and really understanding the consequences for you. I second the counseling option, it can help you or both of you really understand what's possible for the relationship (if it can be saved).

Ultimately, you can't fix his problems. How many years have you been trying?

HE's abusive. Whether he's gay or straight, no amount of effort on your part will change him. It doesn't matter if you don't think it's his fault because of the way he was raised. It's certainly not YOUR fault, either, and you don't deserve that. Ultimately, every person is responsible for the way they treat those who love them, and if he is constantly hurting and belittling you, that should be a deal breaker. You've already said that every time you try to start the discussion about his sexuality, it ends up in a screaming match.

Any changes or admissions will have to come from him. It's typical for an abused person to think that if they walk on eggshells or say just the right thing, the abuser will start treating them better. Nope. He's treating you badly because of whatever is going on inside of him.

I think the only thing you can do is decide what you will put up with and let him know. I'd see a therapist who is an expert on abuse and work out a plan.

It's very humane of you to stick with him through his illness. But it's legitimate for you to be able to walk if the abuse continues, and you could start right now by cutting short visits if he's mean. He's certainly getting the physical care he needs at the hospital, so I think it's a good time to set boundaries on the way he treats you emotionally.

I wish we had some statistics on how many times this happens - closeted mormon gay marries, has children and 10, 20 or more years down the road the train wreck happens. I know too many personally and too many stories from this board. I know people who the train wreck is just waiting for.

Gawd, how happy I am to belong to a welcoming and accepting community. It's 2015. Mormon LGBT members shouldn't have to live this way. The people who claim that their priorities are love of Christ and love of family should stand on the side of love.

Horrible idea. I'd be concerned about suicide.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 10:43AM by cl2.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 10:44AM by cl2.

Ultimately, c12, I think it comes down to the fact that you can't fix someone else. You can support them, guide them, help them, give them advice, arrange for appropriate care, etc. But you can't FIX them. They have to make that decision for themselves.

At a certain point, when you are in a highly dysfunctional situation, you have to vote for YOU. You have to take care of your own situation and your own mental health *first.*

If Shannon has been in an abusive situation for years, then IMO it's time to start making an exit plan. If not a divorce, then at least a separation (if not legal, then emotional/physical/logistical.) Baby steps if needed. But why put up with chronic meanness and disrespect? Give the other person space and let him get his own act together. In this case her husband is getting extensive professional help. Why mess with it?

Disengage to the largest extent possible, and start building your own life. I've done it myself. I may have to do it again in a different capacity.

I'm on the side of "write the letter" but maybe with some slight modifications to the idea.

1. Write out an outline of points you think are most important to discuss. Do not just email a letter. That might not actually open any discussion. He can always pretend he didn't see an email and can go on ignoring the purple elephant indefinitely.

2. However, if you write out your thoughts and use that as a discussion jumping-off point, I think you might have better luck getting a conversation going while he's captive in the hospital. All I'm trying to say is that face-to-face is better for conversations this huge because you can read nonverbal body language, tone of voice, etc. Touch is a good way to communicate "I care".

3. Try not to focus on his actions or inaction as the case may be. Try to, instead, illustrate the effects of his behavior. When you sexually reject me, I feel worthless and unloved. Make those I-statements about how his behavior has made you feel and how it has affected your children and everyone around you.

4. This sounds a lot to me like it's very similar to the process of getting an apostate mormon to accept that he doesn't believe anymore or getting an addict to realize and admit they have a problem. And I think you're just saying that you want him to accept himself and admit there's a problem in the marriage, because nobody can move forward unless it's acknowledged. So use those words. It's probably in his best interests to accept himself, and if he knows he will still be loved and his children will still love him and he's still worthy of love and acceptance, he'll be more likely to accept himself. So you might have to make assurances about what you still have between you. Maybe that means just asking questions about what he's most afraid of and then work from there to address the fears.

5. I would also frame things in terms of trust and respect. How can you respect a partner who isn't honest with himself or with you? How can you trust someone who isn't even honest with himself? How can there be a healthy relationship without mutual trust and respect? And open, honest communication?

I think I'd give it one more shot and then make it clear: this is not working and it's not healthy for anyone. And then lawyer up and get it done and over with so you can both move on. You can still co-parent and be friends and help and support one another. I'm just saying, don't wait for your DH to admit to being gay or bi or whatever and accept himself before you make decisions about the marriage. Go on and get out. That doesn't mean you have to drop off the planet and never speak to him again.

I agree with c12 on each of her points. No abuse is acceptable, regardless of the supposed justifications. If Shannon is in an abusive situation, she needs to end it. She can do it by accepting responsibility for her own life. However, I do not think trying to "out" her husband is a good way to go. That's his life, his baggage. She would be better off accepting the fact that she can not be responsible for who he is or what he is and getting on with her life, even if it means going it alone. It's tougher if kids are involved. The yelling and screaming impacts them in a very negative way which they will deal with for many years, if not their entire lives. If there are no children involved, then I would be for Shannon just admitting to herself (and everyone else) that she no longer is willing to go down this street.

My wife and I went to a very top psychiatrist together. First meeting he told my wife that she would be seeing his partner, alone and without me. He then excused her as he wanted to speak to me in private. After my wife left the room he turned to me and bluntly stated. You have no choice and no option but to divorce. I was shocked and stood quietly for a few moments. I then told him that as far as my situation was concerned, divorce was NOT an option. I had a family. I had to figure out how to make it work. He then stood up and walked over to me as I stood up. He then gave me a big hug and wished me luck. My wife was in counseling for several months. She came to understand that my problems were MY problems and she let go of feeling she needed to help me.

One therapist quit his practice because he was trying the Everygreen approach on me and it kind of back fired and he was afraid of a law suit (which I would have NEVER done). He was my ninth attempt to find a counselor. (I got to know most of them in my area) After that, I basically went it alone. My wife and I talked about keeping the family together and drew some boundarys for ourselves. I did not want her thinking my gayness was because she wasn't sexy and beautiful..She was/is incredibly nice looking.

WE can now see a nice looking man or woman and both vocally appreciate their prowess and looks. No jealousy or pettiness. Just admiration for beauty. It feels good to be at the place we are. We both are proud of the other and eager to be out in public, go to dances or the theatre (She is also an actress and Director in Community theater plays) She is tops in what she does. I admire her and enjoy her excellence. I sense she is proud to have me as her husband. We have a beautiful life together. It hasn't been easy for either of us but it feels great to have made it to this place.

FWIW Our five kids are aware of my orientation and they and their spouses are okay with it. (Also, all five children are out of the Cult too - so glad the grand kids will NOT have to go through the Cult up-bring and all eight grand children are happy, active top peeformer's in school and at home.(Perhaps one of them will be gay...so what?)

Honesty and openess works great for us. Get rid of the religious diatribe and judgmentalness and life is amazing! (Have stood on several sides of the fence now and i like this one the best. :)

I don't think you should write the letter. Not because it's unfair to him, and not because he might commit suicide (although, of course, I'd never want that). Fairness has got nothing to do with; the whole situation is unfair. Nor do I agree that the OP must disengage in order to protect her mental health.

My problem with the letter and "must protect YOU, first," is that both represent a victim mentality. There is this idea that the other person is "this way (whatever label, gay, abusive, whatever), then because they are "this way" the subject must do something to accomodate. Doing something because you "have to," because someone else did something or is something always makes the subject a victim because the other person by doing something, not doing something, or being something is in control of every situation and is calling the shots.

The OP seems to believe that if only her husband would come out of the closet and admit he's gay, they could begin healing. There is absolutely no reason to believe that his doing that will make any difference at all. It's an obsession. By focussing on getting the husband to do this one, necessary thing, all the focus is taken off reality and put into this thing. There may be many things that can be done to begin a healing process, but they won't be initiated if the OP believes that this one precondition must be met first.

Also, the alternative to having a person do exactly what you want them to do is to disengage from them. Not necessarily. Yes, you need boundaries, and yes, you must stop allowing yourself to be abused, and yes, if the only way to stop being abused is to leave, you must leave. But the only way to protect oneself is to abandon others isn't necessarily true, and it shouldn't be assumed that it is.

MCR I so agree with you! Thank you for clarifying!

The biggest thing I learned from being a lesbian is you never force someone to out. It NEVER ends up being good. I attempted suicide in high school due to a someone sending me a letter DEMANDING that I'll accept my sexuality. At the time, I was dealing with issues and didn't give a flying flip about my sexuality or even what I identified as.

In college, I had to deal with my cousin becoming estranged from his family because his brother demanded to stop being gay. He never dated.

You're in a terrible situation and you really should be thinking of if you really want to have a relationship with your husband at all on a personal level. Not for the kids. Friends of mine have disclosed they wished their parents divorced because of the situation that resulted because they stayed for their sake of their children.

The major thing is working on transitioning from being a victim to a survivor. Right now you're focused on this situation too much and letting your feelings about it to not see the options you have. You need an out and end, but more importantly you need to get to where you can move on, live, and focus your energies on something else.

Lola Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The biggest thing I learned from being a lesbian
> is you never force someone to out.

I did not know this. And I never thought of the suicide angle. I feel hopelessly inept to deal with all of this. And now I'm scared.

Thank you for your comment Lola. I hope your life is f*cking fantastic now. I mean it.

;o)

Getting a divorce, changing your life is a super hard decision and when I was going through it I felt that it was as dramatic and scary as jumping off a cliff. But life is way too short to live with someone who causes you heartache.

I read your post, on my way to bed, and don't have time to read the other responses.

But--I need to tell you this.

The issue is that your husband hates women. I was married to a "woman-hater", who not only yelled at me, but beat me and strangled me. I divorced him as soon as I felt safe enough to do so.

Gays are not woman-haters! I've had gay friends, too, and there wasn't a woman-hater in the bunch. I just had to straighten this out.

You need to let your curiosity and amateur sleuthing not get the better of you. It doesn't matter if your husband is or is not gay, and you might never get the truth. All that matters is that he is an abusive jerk, who doesn't love you.

Simply things down to only what you, personally, must deal with. Concentrate more on your financial situation, and prepare yourself for your inevitable divorce.

Has your husband been married and divorced before? Most likely his other wife(s) couldn't tolerate him, either. Does his family tolerate him? Was he horrible with his siblings? I have a gut feeling, Shannon, that it is all about him, and not about you. Please don't take the blame, and please don't think you must "fix" him. A Narcissist (perhaps he is a psychopath, as well) can not be fixed--he considers himself already perfect.

I wish you safety and happiness and refuge somewhere away from your husband. Time to move on.

One thing that I realized while in an emotionally abusive relationship was that by finding reasons in my mind for his abusive behavior (trouble at work, family problems, etc.), I was validating it, as if it were normal and understandable for him to react to his own problems by being abusive toward me. The fact is that there is never an excuse to be abusive, no matter what the issue is; a non-abusive person, even in an argument, would disagree with you without making personal attacks or degrading, hurtful remarks. Even if he is gay, that is a SEPARATE issue from the way he's been treating you; there's no such thing as a reason to abuse.

From what you say about his past history, it does sound like he's at least bi. However, as other have said, calling him out, IMO, will not get him to do something he's not ready to do with respect to his orientation.

I think a letter is a good idea if you can't talk to him without it turning into a screamfest. But instead of his sexuality, it should be about your feelings about his abusive behavior, and what changes you expect from him if he expects you to be there to help him when he gets out of the hospital and/or to continue the marriage, if that's what you really want. Tell him that you will no longer tolerate verbal abuse, and you will walk away or hang up on him the instant he gets loud or abusive. Mean it and stick to it. Remember, we teach people how to treat us.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 10:44AM by cl2.

I think that the place to start is with the hostility and verbal abuse. I think that Shannon needs to make very, very clear to him that she is not his verbal punching bag, and that if there is any hope of a continuing relationship, she is to be treated with respect. It's really on him (hopefully with the aid of a counselor or psychiatrist) to determine the origin of the hostility. That is really not Shannon's problem. I would leave that to a qualified professional.

Everyone has a right to be treated with dignity. And no one else can enforce that but you, by voting with your feet if necessary.

This is not an issue of a potentially cranky or fussy patient who is normally a nice person. This has been an ongoing situation and must be dealt with for the sake of Shannon's own mental health.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 10:45AM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He puts her down for not having the perfect body and that is why they don't have sex.

> I don't think he is a mean man.

To me that's mean no matter your orientation. A kinder person might say, "I'm sorry, it's not you, it's me."

Do you have to keep putting gay on the table? I think the big picture is, whether he's straight or gay, you don't like being treated badly or with hostility. It really doesn't matter what his gender preference is. Can you simply state that you simply will not tolerate the abuse any longer, especially not as a primary caregiver? I would not sign up for a lifetime of further abuse, and not with the high stress of having to deal with a great deal of care for that person.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1505712,1506018#msg-1506018



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2015 10:41AM by cl2.

Thanks for posting the original link.

If this cop was a true professional, it wouldn't have mattered. period.