If a grandparent feels comfortable attending a baptism or sitting outside for a temple wedding, that's perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with attending Mormon events if anyone enjoys it and wants to be there for a child.

But in the thread today, a grandparent said it would feel horrific to attend a baptism and asked how to say no.

This isn't someone on the fence who had no problem attending these events. They've had family mistreated at other baptisms, and they now know that Mormonism is not a healthy organization when it comes to family unity. The eight year olds' parents have said the grandparent can't play with the child on Sundays because having fun might make them not want to attend the meetings since the contrast between fun and boredom would be so pronounced.

This partially explains why this person did not want to go to the ritual event.

To me, it sends the wrong message to force oneself to stand around fidgeting and trying to smile while wishing to be somewhere else. Better to skip the awkward event and spend time with the child another time in another place acceptable to everyone.

There are zoos, museums, shopping trips, hikes, bike rides, the library, movies, storytime, ice cream shops, the beach, star gazing, botanical gardens, cooking together, gardening, butterfly watching, bird watching, petting farms, fashion shows and much more.

Teaching children that grandparents have no rights or feelings doesn't help the kids learn about diversity or empathy.

Nothing wrong with saying, "Grandma isn't a Mormon. So kids can go to Mormon events with their Mormon parents and do other activities with Grandma."

Eight year olds can easily understand this idea. In fact four and five year olds get it easily. I've taught pre-school, kindergarten, and grades one through three and have taught concepts much harder than that to every age. I've reared two children to adulthood and have explained about their TBM grandparents and how they believe what they choose, not what anyone else wants them to believe.

It's okay that people don't all think alike and it's fine if Grandmas don't attend cult rituals if attending makes them feel they're giving unspoken approval. Actions speak louder than words.

I'd have hives if I went to a baptism. I know some would say I should put the child first and suffer the outbreak. No, that's wrong. That isn't putting the child first. It's pandering and sacrificing my wellbeing to no good end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 06:49PM by Cheryl.

Cheryl, I couldn't agree more. My grandmother was very Catholic, but she did not come to my Catholic baptism, my first communion, nor my confirmation. Grandparents do not need to show up at *every* life event. When I saw her (on certain holidays and vacations,) I felt that I had her entire attention. That was enough for me.

Kids are resilient. Tell them that you will see them at another time for a fun activity and that will almost certainly work for them.

She had too many grandchildren, no car, and my parents lived too far to drive round trip for anything like a baptism.

She was a very nice lady I saw on holidays and the times I spent the night and helped her with planting tomatoes or painting and wallpapering her walls. I never saw any problem with how she treated me and will always remember her fondly.

I was born and raised Mormon and had very devout parents who went to the temple regularly, paid a full tithing, went on a Senior Mission together and worked at the SLC temple for many years.

But, I didn't buy mormonism, ever, and they sent me to mormon shrinks and BYU and all that hoping that it would somehow "take" but it didn't. So I moved to SF and studied religion and took a class in Jewish studies because Jewish was sort of exotic and not mainstream and I converted and found a nice (i thought at the time) Jewish boy and married him in the Jewish temple. And my parents came to the wedding - and the probably weren't very happy about it - and they contributed to the wedding expenses and gave gifts and when my new father-in-law lifted champagne and offered a father's toast my Dad lifted his champagne and took a tiny sip!!

And my children were Bar Mitzvahed and my Mom and Dad attended and even participated in the ceremony doing everything they could to be supportive and loving to me and my family.

On occasion my Mom would pull me aside and tell me that she was being told by her Mormon friends that she should not support my religious choices. But she told me that family mattered and she would not take their advice although she wished I had made different choices.

When I divorced my Mom and Dad had prayers said at the Mormon temple for me. And when I married again they participated in another non-Mormon wedding that was officiated by a Woman Reverend. My Dad did ask why we were not being married by a Mormon bishop and when I told him it was because we weren't Mormons he accepted it OK.

So when my Mom and Dad got older and didn't drive it was without any hesitation that I hauled them to my niece's and nephew's farewells and weddings and baptisms because it is just a ceremony after all and they wanted to be there and because I was the driver I also was there and it was OK.

My Mom died when she was 96 and my Dad died when he was 97. They never stopped asking me - or I guess the way the speaker's at LDS conference state it "invite those who have strayed back into the church - because they might just need a nice invitation." But I reassured them that I didn't belong to the Mormon church because I just didn't believe the Mormon church. It was always the elephant in the room but we worked around it OK and I felt close and loved by both my parents and I sure loved them. We didn't agree on religion and we acted like any other religion would act if it was like catholic or baptist or episcpalian - like they just agree to disagree and then they do what they do to show love and support of each others choices. I know that mormons are different that way, but that didn't stop me from loving my family and showing them support. There were a few awkward conversations and some weird one-upmanships that happened over the years....but we got over those and just moved on.

I totally appreciated my Mormon parents' support. Even if they supported me without a full and honest smile they were there and they supported me in love. They were not in agreement but they showed up and supported my choices.

So my advice is go to the baptisms. Be there and show that it isn't too weird for you to support a child's rights of passage. And then live your own choices openly and honestly. When asked a religious question answer it honestly like you would answer questions about sex. Who knows what that child will be like in 10 years? Maybe she will need to know that there are people with different ideas who have made different choices and survived and thrived. Maybe those kids will be devout mormons, go on missions and then announce they are gay on Facebook and you will be there to support them through that also.

Love is really all there is after all is said and done....and really, all of the other stuff is just someone making something up anyway so what difference does it make anyway?

However, I do think the difficulty would be much greater for someone who had had a horrible experience in the church. Going back into a church situation might be a triggering situation. If someone is going to suffer a lot of fear, anxiety or anger because of going, then the healthy thing for them to do would be to stay home.

Each person has to decide what works best for them.

I used to go to these things after I left the church. But it was unpleasant and boring. And I felt like a sitting duck for someone to direct comments at me from the pulpit (Because of something my mom said in a talk that seemed targeted at me). No more baptisms. That was it.

To the original poster: There are usually open houses after these things. Why not skip the churchy part and just go mingle afterwards? If she asks, just tell her that you are not comfortable in religious situations, so you just came after just to see HER. Or if you want to avoid the event completely, just set up a separate time to take her to ice cream or something.

Treat it no different than you would if your grandchild was involved in a sporting event and you hated sports: wish them well, but you don't need to sit through it just because they (or their parents) would like you to. Edit: I think this is a valuable lesson for anyone to learn. Just because something is important to YOU doesn't mean that everyone needs to come watch you do it. Attendance is optional and it doesn't mean people don't care just because they didn't come.

In Mormonism, too many family get togethers are tied in to Mormon rites of passage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2015 09:14PM by imaworkinonit.

that their parents are like yours. NOT so.

The right answer for you? Yes.

For EVERYONE. Certainly not.

You are very wrong.

Her answer was she handled an awkward situation with love and respect-how could that be "very wrong?"

No need to restate either of them.

What a lovely tribute to the Jewish faith!! How wonderful that your parents were able to attend the wedding and fully participate in the religious traditions.

I wish the LDS church was just as accommodating!! But alas, the one true church has to maintain its rigorous standards.

Correction: I should have said...tribute to Jews...because one can actually be atheist and still hold a position in their synagogue.

BUT isn't it refreshing to know THERE ARE families like this?

I have so many family members outside the church that this is possible for us. My family never made a HUGE deal over rituals like baptisms, etc. Very few came to my kids' baptism--actually, only my sister from my family, who is a jack Mormon and hasn't been active since her teens. Some of my ex's family came. I can't remember why my parents didn't come, but I didn't care. My family is more of the idea they don't like to be the center of attention EVER.

When my daughter gets married, I will be 'around' to support her. I have 2 family members/spouses (I don't claim my uncle as a family member) who will be able to attend the wedding. The rest will be with me. But she is my daughter and I WILL BE THERE. When she blesses my grandchildren, I will be there. She is MY DAUGHTER. Not their's.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2015 09:51AM by cl2.

Following up on a couple of comments...
Please don't think that I think my family is what ALL mormon families are like....and I am sorry for your experiences and support your decision to do what is right for you. I just wanted to share my experience.

It wasn't always easy and the story I told is the end result after a very long journey through many, many heartaches and hurt feelings and articles being mailed to me and letters saying to cut the crap and come back to the mormon faith etc.

I had six siblings and there are two still TBM. My TBM SIL was absolutely relentess and was always getting in snide remarks that were meant to be judgemental and put downs for my family .... well she resigned from tscc about 5 years ago! AND her kids would not let her visit with her grandkids (after she babysat them for years and years...etc.) AND she sought me out and apologized and asked for my support after leaving tscc.

My other TBM sibling is the Stake Pres (!) yup and their son, an RM came out on FB announcing his relationship.

After losing some siblings and my wonderful parents (and I didn't always feel that way, btw) I realize that life is short....people and circumstances change .... hurt feelings can heal (assuming you aren't dealing with personality disorders like narcissicm or bipolar) and it is easier to be mellow and roll with it all than to get angry and hurt yourself while hurting others.

But I recognize that there are all sorts of issues that were not part of my experience and I send my sincere support of whatever path and decision is the right one for you.

Where's the "like" button? The interactions you described are healthy and stress free. Just like I'd like my interactions with my parents to be and sometimes are!

Yes, very refreshing...especially the part about the toast. At least her father was socially aware and didn't ask for a glass of milk from which to toast...just to flaunt his TBM status.

Some people actually love their children more than the church. I am wondering if YBU had other sibblings and if her parents were converts?

My Dad was a great guy - but he never let me think that I had chosen the path that he wished I had chosen because he wanted us all "in the convenant". One time my niece and her husband came to SF (I was a great hotel...apparently) and she told me that when the told Grandpa that they were going to the wine country he told them --- and this was said with BIG HUGE ROUND EYES AND A lot of eye rolling...that they should take a little TASTE of wine while they were there. She was beyond shocked that my Dad would suggest such a thing!! And of course I smiled and said .... "well it would be pretty lame to go to the WINE country and not at least try a tiny bit of what the whole thing is all about...right?"

One day when my Mom was about 95 she asked if I knew why she wore temple garments. And I told her that I thought it was probably because she was a devout Mormon and she launched into an all out missionary talk about eternal marriage and how it was so we could all be together in the after life etc. etc. (that is when I rolled eyes...haha) and I said, "Oh Mom, relax, I will be hanging out with my friends and loved ones in heaven and you can always come on down to our floor to visit if you miss us." Then we hugged and I told her again, "Wow, Mom, I really wish I believed it because that would make my life easier all around....but I don't believe it. Sorry."

I'm the OP. Thank you all for the great advice. I was happy to get so many good responses, as my computer was down for a few days, and I couldn't reply. All of you gave good points to consider, and I need to give this more thought.

On the one hand, my main motive is to do what is right for my grandchild, whom I love with all my heart. As sick as the baptism would make me feel, I would sacrifice some uncomfortable hours, and the lingering effects for a few days. I feel like a whiner--it won't kill me. Being a TBM all my life has taught me how to act, and I can act normal, or thrilled, or like a superior hostess (as one poster suggested) with great food. That is tempting...and really would make me feel proud of myself, but that's not my purpose. Generally, I like to blend. I work the room at a party, but quietly. I enjoy drawing others out, and laughing, and exchanging pleasantries. I would rather live a life of love than of gossip and hatred. It would be lovely to make peace with the Mormons, and I have tried, for 6 years, and have failed.

On the other hand, Mormons have damaged me and my children. They want to separate me from my grandchild, so that she will become more and more Mormonized, as life goes on.

Around Mormons, I feel so uncomfortable and out-of place--well, it's a FACT that I'm being shunned, and that my grandchild's TBM grandparents think I'm inferior because I was a single working mother, and now I'm an apostate. I'm also 15 years older than they are. I feel that socially, I would just sit in the corner, as most normal semi-introverts would. Their conversation is always about people I don't know. My grandchild would sense my discomfort, and watch the happy-happy Mormon side of the family shun me. I don't want her to see them get away with shunning and gossiping against others. By going to that place, I would be giving her the message, "It's OK to treat people like dirt--they'll just come crawling back for more." I want my grandchild to think of pride as a good thing. She's going to need a lot of self-esteem, to keep the Mormons from sucking the life out of her.

I don't want her to feel sorry for me, but happy for me. (Yes, Sweetie, non-Mormons can be happy!)

Seeing me de-valued, my value would go down in the eyes of my grandchild. I don't want to be treated as a "nothing." Do you know what I'm saying? How can I have any credibility, how can I be any kind of an example, if my grandchild sees me as a "nothing", or as someone who is "offended, lazy, wanting to sin." (quote from their Prophet) When the time comes, my grandchild could be brainwashed into thinking I'm not worthy to be her confidant.

If the Mormons can manipulate my grandchild's view of an evil cult and its criminal leader, then they can manipulate my grandchild's view of ME. I feel that staying away from Mormons altogether will not give them the power to do that.

Likewise, having my grandchildren see me sitting in that awful temple waiting room, corralled with the rest of the "unworthies", would not be a good example of independence, women's rights, or joy. But, would it be an example of love and support? I don't know!

So far, I have my own world. My world is not the Mormon world. I don't say anything bad about going to church. I go to my own Christian church, sometimes, and I don't make anyone else go with me. I didn't make any TBM's go to the Christmas Eve service--they all went over to the TBM grandparents' house to play "candy poker." My grandchild sees me do charity work three days a week. I give her piano and singing lessons. I pay for her ballet and ski lessons. I go to all the grandchildren's recitals, and to their soccer games in bad weather, and to their basketball games, where we have to sit on the floor. We watch nature programs, go to the zoo (I bought a family pass), get ice cream. I love that Cheryl mentioned those things, because we do them!

We all face this kind of problems with Mormon family members. Maybe every family is different (like YBU's), and there is no ONE solution.

Circumstances are different. I didn't approve 100% of all my children's spouses, but I was so happy to see them in love, and starting a life together! Mormon temple, Jewish, atheist, of different races and cultures--love and marriage are to be celebrated and supported, IMO. The blessing of a baby is an opportunity to celebrate a new child coming into the world! Who would not? Who would not join into a drum ceremony, or a renewal of vows ceremony on the beach, or Chinese New Year, or the First Day of Spring? I have, and more.

--But celebrating an 8-year-old being brainwashed into making a life commitment to lies, sexism, racism, homophobia, giving 10% or everything--every dime--that she earns, taking orders, letting others think for her, being stunted in her learning about Truth and science, and not knowing all those wonderful non-Mormon human beings--never believing in pure, unconditional love--never believing she is worthy of love unless she is perfect. This is an occasion to mourn.

Well said, Cheryl

As every parent knows, there's a big difference between putting the children first and letting them run the show.

Some of my grandchildren will probably be baptized as Mormons. You made some good points, Cheryl.

The eight year old needs to see that Mormons don't always run the show. Grandparents have a right to follow the dictates of their own conscience. Integrity seems to be a thing of the past.

Perhaps in our desire to please others, we end up compromising our standards. Would a grandchild really be pleased if he sees his grandparents' discomfort and unhappiness at his baptism?

I know how I'll feel, when the time comes, and I'll probably break out in hives, too. We all have to handle Mormons, if they're in our family. I find that it helps me to be strong, to make my own boundaries. Sometimes, like for a wedding, you can buy your way out with a nice gift.

I will definitely give a great family birthday party for my eight-year-old, and help out at her party with her friends--like I do for all my grandchildren. I will let her talk to me about her baptism, if she wants to. Mostly, I will listen. Listening is underrated.

Whatever I end up doing, I will treat Mormonism and Mormon rituals as a speck on my screen. It is no big deal. I won't criticize or demean--I just won't acknowledge that it's important at all. I know exactly what the poster is talking about, about being "nothing" in Mormon society. Well, Mormon rituals are nothing, and nonsense. We don't have to honor them.

Right! My grandchildren don't go with me to Christmas Eve Service, or to my yoga class, or help me volunteer. Whatever I do or not do, I'll let our happy life just putter over the bumps, and keep moving along, with as few altercations as possible. I swear, Mormonism is the worst thing in our life. Otherwise, we have it pretty good

The same Mormons who hype baptism as a huge deal, will vilify grandparents and parents and siblings for not attending. I don't think it would work to just gloss it over, ditch out of the fracas, and pretend it never happened.

When we were good TBM's, every Mormon event was a cause for arguments. Most of us didn't want to go. Every event was touted as an opportunity to bring your neighbors, and preach, and convert. We all know about Mormon funerals and Mormon weddings. Baptisms are no different. Kids are herded around--usually two or three being baptized at the same time--and there is a speaker who is assigned to preach the plan of salvation, same as always. What about the conversion (laying of of hands), done in sacrament meeting? Don't Mormons preach that this is just as important as the baptism? Surely grandparents are expected to go to those, too.

If you sneak in the back, and leave early, that's weird behavior. If you wear pants or no sleeves, that's off. If you break out in hives, that's sick. If you're not there at all, you're bad. If you act sad, you're angry. If you act pleased, you're ready to have the Mormons start love-bombing you again. If you act too pleased, you are being phony (or drunk.) If anyone notices you at all, the gossip will be severe on you. Either way, you lose.

You can't please the Mormons. Their creed is to "perfect the saints." No one is ever perfect.

Cheryl wrote: "Teaching children that grandparents have no rights or feelings doesn't help the kids learn about diversity or empathy."

I agree, and this lack of empathy is passed down from generation to generation of TBM's.